What I learned on Dusy Ershim Trail

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Author Message   pk Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 12:08 am:    I just got back from 4 days of rocks and trees on the secluded, high country, Dusy-Ershim Trail. They tell me it is one of North America's toughest trails. Could that be true??? Anyway, I learned a few things there: -ROTOFLEX RULES- Everyone rushes to get rid of the rotoflex coupling and change to a u-joint. First of all many have serious vibes after doing so. More importantly, as I saw, a rotoflex can be easily replaced after getting chewed all to shit on nasty rocks. What you gonna do when the u-joint knuckles are busted or worn thin? -TOO TALL AIN'T TOO COOL- Tall is nice and clearance is good on rocks but when that shit gets off camber, a lower rig that can really drop and stuff feels (and is) so much safer. -I WOULD NOT WASTE MY MONEY ON ROVERTYM SLIDERS- I have a lot of RTE hardware on my truck and I dig it. I recommend it all the time but I saw the sliders in action last week and they suck. They are built well and real sturdy but its the shelf. I guess that is for standing on? Trouble is, the shelf parts acts like a lever arm and the force of hard landings on massive rocks send the slider (or any slider) up into the body panel. I disrespect $G products all the time yet I must say, of the 3 different Disco sliders I saw working on Dusy, the $G sliders were the best. Far from perfect, but the best I saw. -TRUETRACs AIN'T BAD AT ALL- A Disco with TTs front and rear is at no disadvantage compared to a Disco with a rear locker and a front TT. In whale shit perhaps, but not on rocks and dirt. -GET A WELDER FOR THE OUTBACK- Thank God we had some under hood welding capability. When you are too far to get out except with the rig you NEED the tools along to fix broken parts. I think as a whole we don't pay enough attention to this important trail tool. -THERE MAY BE SOMETHING TO BE SAID FOR FRONT DIFFERENTIAL PROTECTION- Despite my habit of saying the only diff guard you need is a good steering wheel, I learned the hard way that anyone can get tiered, careless and then split open a front differential case :^) pk   Clif Ashley (Cta586) Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 12:23 am:    How 'bout some pics?   muskyman Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 12:37 am:    like maybe a pic of that rovertym slider bent into the body? good observation on the rotoflex, as well as easier to change on the trail they also absorb huge shock loads and I would believe protect the cv's in front as well as protect the transfercase. as far as onboard welder, its amazing what a good welder can do with 3 batteries,jumpercables and some 6013 rod. sounds like you had a great trip as   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 03:38 am:    Hot damn pk! Good to see you back around for some valuable conribution! I heard from a little birdie that you are now entering and exiting your rig ala Dukes of Hazard style. Such is the consequences of rocks and leverage I also heard you did some pretty impressive stuff in your stealth rig. However it went down, good to see you around. Curtis   pk Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 10:42 am:    Hi Curtis, Hehehehe, nah. My rig is ok. There is another rig with a stuck door. I have a small dent in one door and a wiped driver's side rear quarter panel and ofcorse, a split open diff case. Otherwise I came through much better than most. As far as welding goes, I have and alternator that I modified into a 100 amp DC arc welder. It actually works a lot better than I ever expected. The guys with all the pics are still on the road. They have a few more stops to make as they disco their way back to the east coast. Look for their pics of Dusy Ershim coming soon. In the meantime, there are some pics of the first day only of our trip through the Dusy trail at http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy pk   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 11:20 am:    WOW!! Great pics. Great trucks....nice to see the Rangie in there too! "Go West young man...." This coming spring...... RJ   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 12:25 pm:    Nice set of observations PK, thanks for sharing them. I like points clearly laid out like that backed-up with observations! Thank-you, thank-you! Michael   Jeremy Katka (Jkatka) Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:53 pm:    PK, Alot of good observations there. Thanks for the report. One think that sold me on RTE sliders is the step. On tighter trails the slider may protect the bottom of your door (kind of acting as a side slider for roots and rocks.) I do understand your concern about the step acting as a lever though. I to would be intrested in seeing pictures of the damage that happened to the RTE sliders. JK   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 04:34 pm:    One thing to remember is that they are rock "sliders" they are supposed to slide across rocks not get dropped onto them. They aren't designed to take massive hits from a loaded Disco going straight down onto a rock. Just my 2cents.   KJ Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 04:55 pm:    Some of those pictures look like they were taken on the moon. If that was Day 1, I have to think the trip got you WAY out there! Karen   pk Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 05:20 pm:    OK, -The Rangie there in the pics on EE's site is Sean Arney. It is set up nicely and he knows how to drive it well. He has really come along with driving and rig prep since I wheeled with him in Pritchett Canyon in Moab during April of 2000. Unfortunately, he was late to get home to Texas and had to turn around after day 1. -I also liked the RTE sliders for that ledge to stand on. But that ledge gives the rocks a moment arm to use against the rig. Sometimes it isn't possible to slide gently over rocks. When the entire trail is just a steep pile of rocks, and it wears you down tor 33 miles, sooner of later a tire will scuff off a big rock and the slider will bear the brunt. I bent my $G sliders a little bit but they did their job of protecting the door sills. The RTE sliders on Michelle Findley's rig kept diving up into the body... no slider can overcome the force of a falling Disco multiplied by the moment arm of that damn slider shelf on the RTE sliders. Believe me when I tell you, the one rig with RTE sliders is trashed in the rockers. TRASHED! -Hi Karen. Those "moon pics" are from down in an alpine reservoir that is now partially drained for late season irrigation. Dusy starts at 9,000 feet above sea level and goes as high as 10,200 feet above sea level. It never drops below the starting altitude. Some people were having difficulty with the high, thin air. It is way far in the back country. In fact, during the 4 days, we saw only a couple guys on big ATVs near the trail head on a nasty mile long climb called Thompson Hill. Otherwise, we were alone the entire trip. -I refuse to wheel without at least one mud flap since, as you all know, the Disco magic is stored in the mud flaps. I removed one and put it in my Pelican case full of recovery gear. Its a good thing since there is no trace of the other 3 mud flaps anywhere on my Disco after that trail. Getting caught out there with no mud flap could be serious! -Did I mention how important a good winch is? Damn, I winched a lot. I had to leave after 4 days to get back to work so I wheeled the second half of Dusy alone. Rather than risk anything while alone in that serious wilderness, I just broke out the shackle, strap and winch cable whenever I was starting to have trouble with a rock pile. I must say that a good reliable winch and the experience to use it safely and effectively are paramount to doing any serious trail. pk   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 05:34 pm:    Give and take I guess. If you want the step then that is some thing that you need to think about, you can also get them with out it. I have the RTE sliders and I have dropped them onto some rocks pretty hard a few times and I haven't had an issue yet. Of course I dropped the truck onto the second part of the sliders that wraps around not on the actual outrigger (for lack of some thing better to call it).   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 05:58 pm:    you can get the RTE slider without the step on it, and he discounts the price because there is less labor rd   Rick Lindgren (Slacker) Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 11:10 pm:    As stated earlier, the "shelf" on the RTE sliders is designed to provide side protection for the Disco doors. Unlike the Defender, the Disco's doors bow out as they go up and the shelf provides some protection for them. Also, John has a revised version of the sliders with additional reinforcements at the pillars to help with the whole leverage/rotation problem. Everything in life is a trade-off. Protect the sides and risk the rotation in some situations, or avoid the rotation and drag your truck doors down a rock or tree. I would have liked to see the situation/impact that tweaked his door. It had to have been some good smacking or grinding. Rick   Kyle Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 04:00 am:    Hmmmm , seems some shit got started here a little premature. ALL the sliders bent and they bent in every direction. My sliders were the only ones I saw that werent "bent" , instead they slid into the body....And just to clarify , they arent sliders I built , they are sliders I bought from AB and I pretty much hate em... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 04:14 am:    And please ignore PK's statement about the TT and the Detroit. I think maybe he fell and bumped his head on the trail there somewhere... Kyle   Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 07:28 am:    Great Pics.   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 09:08 am:    What about the rocker protection from ECR...looks like a complete boxed setup as opposed to the Bar/outrigger to the frame setup on the RTE (I'm just going from pictures here on the RTE's...) RJ   pk Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:05 am:    LOL, Kyle, they don't have to ignore the TT and Detroit coments. I wrote them there just especially for you! pk   pk Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:11 am:    Now... RTE sliders WITHOUT the outrigger shelf thing? That would be about ultimate. It is very cool the way they fasten to the Disco. pk   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:13 am:    Pic of ECR ROX mounted Rovertym Slider pic Hmmm, maybe they're closer than I think....   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:35 pm:    Those ECRs look like you would rip the bolts right off of them they way they are on the bottom like that exposed.   Nadim Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:59 pm:    ECR, RTE, S$...all in my opinion have a big flaw: they rely on the weak Cab structure. Its like building a building on soft soil (the Cab), when hard rock (the chassis) is only a yard away. I hate to comment without giving a solution, but I have to say that going for some protection and relying on the cab is a big no-no. I have no idea how I'm gonna figure something up that relys ONLY on the Chassis and in a lot of ways, but that is what I am planning on doing... I think ECR &/or RTE should start considering a frame mounted slider.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 01:03 pm:    true nadim, but in the mean time the solutions out there are better than stock. i think it would be pretty hard to mail to someone a do-it-yourself kit that can handle the abuse these guys were dishing out. they've entered the relm of custom fab on the truck rock crawling protection. rd   charles pastrano (Charles) Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 08:09 pm:    That is one nice trail tool kit. Looks like an excellent get away. Hope to get out that way next year. Charles   Kyle Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 01:10 am:    I have a little more time to comment now on PK's comments. The one big thing the Cali boys seem to constantly overlook is running wieght. All the trucks that came from the East Coast (And Canada) were heavy , real fucking heavy. The tools and spares alone that I packed were heavier then PK's whole payload since he lives 50 miles from the trail head. Findlay was running about the same as me. So it wasnt exactly just the wieght of the disco pounding these sliders. Also after running a few thousand miles then running the Rubicon in fast Forward all the pilots werent the best they could be. My point is that the sliders took more shit then they would normally take. I for one can say there was a point of exhaustion where I just said "Fuck it" and stopped being as carefull as I normally am. The trucks suffered because of this. There was really no spotting to talk about and when you go that route with big heavy ass trucks, shit gets banged to hell. I have never been crazy about that shin banger on the RTE sliders but with or without them they would have gotten bent in that enviroment. Dont start passing judgement on the mans sliders before you get the whole story. Also , keep in mind what they are mounting to. You really cant find a better bolt on solution for protecting the doors then the RTE. As I said earlier , mine are frame mounted and instead of bending they slid up and into the back doors , I could weld em on there but then we are getting way passed the bolt on product rhelm...... Also keep in mind that PK was there for two days of one trail. The trip was a few thousand miles long and included two trails. The Rubicon and the Dusi. Before PK even showed, all the trucks had already recieved a pretty fair ass whipping. As far as the Detroit TT thing go's PK , well , load that bitch up like you are gonna leave your back yard and lets get you in some tight spots and recap this convo after.... Kyle   Blake Luse (Muddyrover) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 02:57 am:    I HAVE JUST ONE THING TO SAY   pk Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 11:19 am:    Well, I can say this. And there are no doubts. Kyle was there, Ho was there, I was there, others were there. It was plain to see. When we got into some sticky whale shit down by the reservoir, all three boys from California sunk in. It was sad and funny at the same time. The Cali rigs are set up real well, especially John Lee's D-90. It didn't matter, we sank like rocks in a swimming pool. I had to take a winch line. Ho had to take a winch line and the D-90 stalled it's Husky 10 worm drive. I think it is some genetic trait for sinking we have on the West Coast. Meanwhile, the East Coast boys were running around in the mud laughing at us. There is something to be said about this and something to be learned. I bet Kyle can say it best... pk   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:05 pm:    i bet he had something to say about that stalled husky... rd   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:08 pm:    hehe, yeah, too bad kyle wasn't there. LOL and pk, we got stuck because we were playing.   pk Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:18 pm:    Look here Disco brothers, Are you sitting in the office now surfin' Discoweb for a little change of pace for your overworked brain? This is real life here. Best friends around the remote High Sierra campsite... http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy/DSC009816.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy/DSC009786.jpg ...waiting for their personal Chef Ho to serve the traditional BBQ meal... http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy/DSC009826.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy/DSC009856.jpg It's Heaven I tell you. It is heaven to have such companionship and good times in a beautiful spot that only a Land Rover or a horse can take you. I consider myself damn lucky to have been there. Happy Trails, pk   John Lee Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:19 pm:    Yes,we were playing. It's funny how only the west coast boys were the ones playing in the mud. http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy/DSC009486.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy/DSC010856.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy/DSC010866.jpg I didn't see a speck of mud on the east coast boys' pretty machines. All I saw was plenty of sexy truck porn stuff like this: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy/DSC009336.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/rubicon/DSC006416.jpg   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:26 pm:    it's gone from sexy to porn, eh john? hehe pk, you are just being a dick now, rubbing shit in to the rest of society, no need to show the bbq like that. did the west coast boys run to the mud like kids in a candy store? that's all old hat out here, maybe you need to drive out for a barrens run? rd   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:30 pm:    yeah rob, i saw mud and had to jump in, and see what i could do. well, i could do shit. man i hate mud. LOL   pk Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:30 pm:    Rob, You have it right. We did run to it like we never saw that shit before. We got silly and it showed. But getting stuck and winching is half the fun, eh? It is just the Cali boys lack of experience in mud was showing bigtime. Hehehehehe pk   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:31 pm:    hehe, paul, other guys knew better not to jump in. LOL   pk Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:32 pm:    Rob, You were there 18 months ago at Hole In The Rock... You know what I mean. I know you call me a dick because you are hurting. Man, once you have had that friendly BBQ experience, you can never forget. pk   muskyman Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:45 pm:    i hate to sound to midwestern ...but where's the mud? maybe the eastern guys missed it and thats why they did not go in?   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 01:00 pm:    What's with the Sausages? I thought Ho is always busting on Kyle for cooking sausages on a little grill in black reboks from the 80s.. Yet Ho's cooking up sausages to feed like 30 people.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 01:15 pm:    hehe, that ain't mud? LOL well, whatever it is called, i dont' like it. yeah eric, wish you were there. you missed out on more than just sausages.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 01:23 pm:    Ya, I wish I was there too. Looks like it was some nice wheeling.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 01:31 pm:    damn right i am hurting pk. i know what was going on there and i am jealous. i used to like the mud here, now i avoid it. that whole driving thru a lake of mud isn't the rovers forte' anyway.... and man its a real mother to work on the truck after that. http://www.discoweb.org/robdavison/mud_0011.jpg rd all i got is this little stocker rangie now, too.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 02:12 pm:    Hey PK! glad to see you here once again! so the little ramsey works like a champ or what? man oh man.... it looked like a great trip! stuck in miami.... Simon.   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 03:51 pm:    " -I WOULD NOT WASTE MY MONEY ON ROVERTYM SLIDERS- " Last year on a trip to Gore, VA we had two D2's with RTE sliders. One set was the standard design and my set was the same standard design (not the light weight design) without the extra 4" step. I never liked the step idea without having the thing bolted to the frame like on D90's. Anyway the D2 with the step came out at the end of the weekend with a slider that rotated up a little while mine was fine but I had a "door prize" that I would have not had if I asked John to make mine with the step. From all the sliders out there that I have seen I still like the RTE the best. They're not perfect but they work but as I've said before the step will work as a lever and twist the sills.   Glenn Guinto (Glenn) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 04:30 pm:    "i used to like the mud here, now i avoid it. that whole driving thru a lake of mud isn't the rovers forte' anyway.... and man its a real mother to work on the truck after that." We east coast folks usually learn that the hard way... I used to like it too...Now I somehow developed an allergic reaction to it.... -glenn I wish I was there too...   pk Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 05:42 pm:    Hey Simon! I figured you would read this and be hurting too. Believe me my friend... Dusy was unbelievable! pk   Blake Luse (Muddyrover) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 12:36 am:    East coast west coast gang bangas up in here East WEst   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 01:55 am:    Um John ? PK got stuck 5 feet behind me in my ruts , the ones I drove out of before driving up and past Ho's stuck ass.... Three Cali boys , three stuck trucks with Cali plates.. Thats the stats....... Oh , and one pulled out stump and one stalled poodle.... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 02:02 am:    Oh and John , you are absolutely right , that first link is full on Porn , the second however is the line that you Cali boys went around and I probably should have as well. Findlay and I still aint believing it drove out of that without bendage....lol Kyle   Blake Luse (Muddyrover) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 02:39 am:    this is the baddest bumper i've ever seen Its from the rubicon so i know this thread will know also do you , or does he make them for sale and if so how much $$$ thanks   Blake Luse (Muddyrover) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 02:44 am:    to big but its the one that has tubes and covers the quarter panels   p m Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 01:41 pm:    Kyle, email me peter   p m Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 02:31 pm:    Paul, going back to your original post - i agree on the roto (even if i have to change it every year or 25kmi) and the TTs. both of which applies to a mostly street-driven disco; going (say) to Mammoth or Big Bear after a snowstorm with a detroit in the rear - i'm too wuss for it. the sliders - believe me, $G sliders will bang your door sill and the doors just as well, especially if mounted as prescribed. RT step sliders are worse in this respect, and there's no excuse of "sliding vs. banging" type. All damage I've ever incurred on the disco happened when I was tired and wishing "to get over with it" peter   p m Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 02:32 pm:    Paul, going back to your original post - i agree on the roto (even if i have to change it every year or 25kmi) and the TTs. both of which applies to a mostly street-driven disco; going (say) to Mammoth or Big Bear after a snowstorm with a detroit in the rear - i'm too wuss for it. the sliders - believe me, $G sliders will bang your door sill and the doors just as well, especially if mounted as prescribed. RT step sliders are worse in this respect, and there's no excuse of "sliding vs. banging" type. All damage I've ever incurred on the disco happened when I was tired and wishing "to get over with it," that was to say that there will be banging on the sliders no matter what. peter   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 03:56 pm:    So Kyle, you're the one who was taking the hard lines on the Rubi and Dusy? Oh please, Mr. 12 Degrees!   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 04:36 pm:    SECURE ME!   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 05:04 pm:    LOL.... it's funny how the laundry get's clean here.. PK... telling you I've been hurting for 2 years! call me when you have the chance!! remember 800- rhum brand! SImon.   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 05:13 pm:    NO, THE OTHER WAY!!!!   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 05:15 pm:    12 deg. lol i'm sure you were reminded how "heavy" kyle runs. he likes to place it on on the roof for some reason and then bitch about tilt's...   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 05:29 pm:    Nooo!!!! MORE SECURE! MORE SECURE!!!   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 05:30 pm:    SECURE ME IN... NO No!!!! SECURE ME OUT!!!!   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 05:36 pm:    mike, you got some good penetrating glue?   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 07:36 pm:    a little birdie just flew buy and wanted me to ask you guys how many finished dusy trail? scratch that, how many drove 3000 miles and finished the trail. scratch that, drove 3000 miles did both the dusy and the ruby trail and then drove home (still not there yet) 3000 miles   p m Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 08:06 pm:    ... and all these easy 3000 miles axle-deep in whaleshit, with 300 pounds of stuff on the roof rack... the last 100 miles winched in, using mile markers as anchors peter   muskyman Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:06 pm:    no kyle wouldent do use the mile markers..."have ya seen those things the have plastic on them" he's a worm drive guy   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 11:36 pm:    don't forget - 3000 miles, in the snow, both ways...   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 11:39 pm:    oops - make that 3000 miles, in the snow, both ways, uphill... yeah.. that's it.   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:09 am:    Actually, I totalled 6489 miles in total, avg speed 50mph, uphill, dark and snow both ways. And my damn brake caliper fell off in Nevada somewhere......   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:32 am:    Exactly Rob , strange how ten trucks dropped quickly to three and none of those three were wearing cali plates... And John Lee ??? http://www.expeditionexchange.com/fineliving/gtv021.jpg Lets not start talking about fine Living..... Ho ??? (Insert the hand icon here) you damn sure need no securing parked in the lot at work.... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:43 am:    The cali boys will talk and talk but the bottom line is that only three of us finished the goal of meeting in the black rock desert and then moving on to run the Rubicon and the Dusi back to back (In the Cali Boys back yard). Yeah we bashed our shit some and yeah we all suffered from the miles , BUT , SOME OF US FINISHED.. The Canuck even made it through with the lowest non pimped out , non "Calied up" Rover in existence... Keep this in mind Cali boys "One Life,,,,,,LIVE IT!!!" Kyle   Peter Carey (Pcarey) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 01:01 am:    Can't we all stop the East Coast/ West Coast rivalry? (said in a whimpering Tammy-Fae Baker voice). It's hate like this that got Tupac and B.I.G. killed. Not as impressive as Rob's pic, but still the same rover It actually makes it easy to see where the leaks are when the mud dries. pwc   kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 01:05 am:    Oh we are getting along Peter , the Cali boys were just launching a pre emptive strike against what they knew was coming.....Jesus what a fucked up state...... Kyle   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 01:28 am:    hey rob - nice truck! he could have parked on the other side, out of the water, though.. ;) kyle, welcome back so soon... and tupac? well, that's another story....   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 01:30 am:    axel - nice ride back, eh?   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 01:31 am:    kyle, i thought you were done eating the cupcakes. LOL   Sean Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 08:14 am:    A few of us that dropped out did do part of Dusy but had some time restraints. 12 days on the road, 5,000 miles I don't think thats to bad. But another 4 days for Dusy and I wouldn't have a job or a wife left. I think everyone on that trip did a great job and we all came out in great shape considering what we did, (except Ho who could have put a little more effort in for all of us converging in his backyard).   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 08:19 am:    Uh, Peter.... Uh, what are you trying to light up with the outboard lights on the roofrack?? Oh, you're a possum hunter!! That's why the lights are aimed for the trees! -L   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 08:38 am:    I know Sean , and you made the right decision. I was aiming that more towards the cup cake cali boys.... Kyle   Peter Carey (Pcarey) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:45 am:    Leslie, Don't get me started on a light guard and what trek offers. ../2/8809.html"../../clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"> pwc   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:56 am:    mike, that was my truck. looked alot like yours, eh.. mr carey took it off my hands and then tries to learn how to drive with it. he is still learning.   Peter Carey (Pcarey) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 10:45 am:      pk Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 11:58 am:    Kyle, Kristian and John Lee were there at Black Rock Desert... They both finished Rubicon.... I finished Dusy.... Those 3 rigs are Cali rigs with Cali drivers. Is your point that we did not drive 6,000 miles to play with you? I wish I could have but the responsabilities of my life limited me to 4 days. Is your point that no single Cali truck and driver spent 2 full weeks hanging with you guys from the east while you were here? Again, I wish I could have but I couldn't. I think we made damn good use of the 4 days I had to spend wheeling with you. I can't think of a better trip or of better company. pk   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:10 pm:    No , my point is that not one single Cali truck completed the goal. I was Crystal clear about it... Two finished the Rubi and two went into the Dusi and turned around. "Life" is there for all of us..... I think we set more aside to be there.... Kyle   pk Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:12 pm:    Oh god! Someone mentioned Mile Marker winch. Damn, I used one for the first time on Dusy. Now, it was old and it was beat but nevertheless... WHAT A HORRENDOUS PIECE OF SHIT! No MM winchy for me. Not now, not ever. Kyle was 100% right about MM all along. pk   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:16 pm:    That's it Kyle. You've insulted the sacred honor of the Cali Cream Puff Brigade. Next year, Kristian, Paul, Ho, and I are going to drive 3,000 back East and join you East Coast boys on a major trip. Pine Barrens, MAR, SAE, and Roverfest, here we come! No whale shit toilet too deep. No teeter-totter too precarious. No sticks too narrow. No dirt road too long. No flag poles in camp too poseur. No burgers and cookies too small. WE'RE COMING! And we Ain't Skeeered. (Aren't you glad you came out West for a real trip?)   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:22 pm:    damn - here goes the love fest... and i thought it was the cupcake brigade.. did we change the name again? hehehh i can't keep up.   Greg Davis (Gregdavis) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:23 pm:    Yipee Yipee. The boys are comin', the boys are comin'! Can I play too?   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:28 pm:    Well John , Canada it is. Next year. Make it a date.... Kyle   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:30 pm:    which side of canada? LOL   pk Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:36 pm:    Kyle, That is it Ed Zachary! You did set more aside for it. The truth of the matter is... I set aside just as much as I was willing and able to set aside. That is the sad fact and hurting truth. Nevertheless, when I am old and febele... I will remember Moab 2000, Hole In The Rock 2001 and Dusy 2002 among the best parts of my life. pk   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 01:38 pm:    And when you are old and feeble, you can watch the DVD of those trips for the first time over and over again, too......   Michel Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 02:23 pm:    PK, A horrendous piece of shit to me is a winch that wont work.... The MM pulled, you were just not used to it's issues. The last trip in canada when it got ripped off the mount gave it a few new issues (levers are fucked and need to be played with), that is it. The horrendous piece of shit still pulls, still works and got a basic stocker in rubicon and dusy and back out the other side. Now it needs a bit of maintanance after 4 years of hell. Michel   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 02:32 pm:    Canada? You mean we're not going to the Pine Barrens?   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 02:37 pm:    Why not go to Paragon or the Cove.. Big Dogs would be a nice place to leave the parts of a land rover all over the woods..   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:01 pm:    Oh damn! Just saw Ax's Dusy pics. I get all misty-eyed when I see this one: http://www.discoweb.org/wildwest/dusy/dsc00172.jpg Ho's grilling and chatting away. Arney is mixing up his very excellent Manhattans from his portable bar. The campfire is going nicely. All of us are sitting around the campfire without worrying about work or other problems. Plenty of good food to go around. Lots of potent potables everywhere. Beautiful scenery. Great company. It just doesn't get much better than this.   Ron A Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:05 pm:    East coast boys I�m glad to see you beat the benchmark set by the Donner party for crossing the Sierras and you didn�t even have to eat the weak ones in your group. (LOL) Actually I congratulate you guys for driving all the way out here and doing both the �con� and �dusy� in one trip. That takes an iron butt and some good sized stones to step up to that challenge. Now let me get this straight � you guys had to winch on the con and dusy!! (haaa haaa) Good job guys. Ron A   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:27 pm:    Hmmm , I winched on Cadilac hill twice and on Thompsons hill at the top once or twice,,, its all a blur but some winching was done indeed.... Now how many Axles were broken in your party to the "Con"..... And how much carnage on the Dusi ? (Ya had to expect it) lol Kyle   kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:29 pm:    Ho , please Give Eric the hand...... Eric , man , dont bring a fun park up into the cut here... Its just funny..... Kyle   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:33 pm:    i can answer the Dusi carnage part.. hehehe a small dent in my front quarter panel - driver error there: nothing more, nothing less... constant overheating challenges - split expansion tank early on. a real PITA, but otherwise, we kept it moving (grin).... uh... let's see... oh yeah - a custom front-diff-guard let go on a full-size bronco, caused some drag-link issues we had to deal with.. otherwise, 3 days, no winching, no slacking, no shit. hehehehh....   muskyman Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:38 pm:    canada can be daunting.... someone always has to bang on mile marker...so if they suck so bad why do mine work so well?? let me guess the top drum engagement knob stuck and needed alittle push to get it to snap in?   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:39 pm:    Better then going to the places that John Lee was talking about. They have some pretty hard trails at Paragon. They just had a rock crawling comp there a little while ago. Who cares if it's a park.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:42 pm:    Well , thats just it Eric , you dont get it. Two different agendas....... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:45 pm:    Musky , no , shit is just screwed up on that old winch.. The pins have been cut down and the cams are worn off on the levers... Too much bullshit for a simple job.... Gears and speeds and shit flipping this way and that.... Findlay knows of my love for his winch.... Kyle   Ron A Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:46 pm:    (LOL) Kyle I've got to admit I've seen more carnage on the 'con' than any LR owner should be subjected to... (haa haa) Funny thing about Thompson Hill, those damn rocks don't want to stay put do they. Start planning for your vacation next year, doing the Dusy backwards and maybe the Hammers just for giggles. Ron A   muskyman Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:50 pm:    park = catch net true offroad will never have a admission price some of our hunting trips to deep dark NW ontario can get you 150 miles off the highway,ya gotta use your head or your screwed...in a park you can roll over and nearly get killed and they just call the medivac helicopter and your all better.   muskyman Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:56 pm:    kyle, the first knobs that MM used where pretty nice then they used some real soft shitty ones that went bad then stamped steel? I run a two speed on my scout , but the first single speed units are the ones I like best. simple rules sounds like a awsome trip...i'd love to join you on one of those   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:19 pm:    Man , the Hill was fine all accept for one particularly large one at the top that grabbed the rim and the trailing arm ear. The rim made out ok but the ear will never forgive me....Thompsons really didnt give me any problems ... I was behind Findlay and he was having some issues with the engine so I had plenty of time to look around and go at it slow. Those nice big Aired up Michelins didnt hurt none either .. Kyle   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:31 pm:    Hey, trails around here are pretty limited. The ones that are free aren't that hard. If I have to pay 30 bucks or whatever to ride on a decent trail then so be it. It's better then not going at all. If I didn't go wheeling then I would just trade the Disco in since   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:35 pm:    well, you can't fight population density....it's all wide open out here   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:39 pm:    Just dont go to California , that state has issues man,,,,, real issues..... Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:48 pm:    Kyle, that's why I never leave my seat here in AZ   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:50 pm:    And what is up with the damn Gas situation ?? God damn that pisses me off.... freaking 91 octane? Thats like pissing in the damn tank.... Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:56 pm:    LOL, all our gas is fresh from Cali....you take what you can get   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:07 pm:    sorry where was I... I would trade the disco in since it isn't a very good road car. I could get alot better.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:26 pm:    and what a bargain for that 91 octaine i bet... rd   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:29 pm:    Dont get me started Rob..... And that Damn park man,,,,,,and the freaking people all over.. Kyle   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:35 pm:    lol, dont feed the animals.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:43 pm:    Man , the fucking state builds a god damn food stand at the top of a freaking mountain and then gets pissy when the damn animals get fed.. THATS BRILLIANT!!! They want your damn money but they want no side affects from it... Close the whole damn thing and get it over with.... They have alot of balls to bitch about 4 wheelers when they are doing the raping that I saw there... Kyle   Dee Cantrell (Discodad) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:44 pm:    Man I've been ranting about the issues with this state forever. But its hard to beat the extremes in the environment so we take it all in stride... Yeah way too many people here, all those tourist sporting those MD plates clogging up the trails.. LOL   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:47 pm:    Hell no Dee , it was Cali plates trying to run me down.... Freaking thousands of them.... You dont have to worry about seeing these MD plates back there again. Not on a damn bet... Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:52 pm:    the chipmunks at the grand canyon will crawl into your mouth or up your ass for a bite to eat, completely fearless. they're nothing more that furry flies without wings. they loiter in the shade of the "do not feed the animals" signs. let's pave a lot, build a shack, post a sentry, and charge admission to pay for the lot, the shack, and the sentry...   Dee Cantrell (Discodad) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 06:35 pm:    Kyle I call them all A-D-D Lemmings (Attention Deficit Disorder) Like I said before the toughest off-road adventure is a drive on southern Cali freeways during rush hour. Or for shits and giggles park on the I8 I5 interchange overpass durring the 2 days we get rain... Man thats funnier than black ice at Daytona MD plates are welcome any time just don't bring those dam Arizoners with you there like chipmunks hang out at the beach over populate our hotels and clubs.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 06:42 pm:    my state can beat up your state   Dee Cantrell (Discodad) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 06:48 pm:    LOL if your talking about our pathetic professional sports franchises or UCSD Aztecs you got me. It's funny they always say next year. The only time the Padres play good is when there in Yuma. keep them there next year....   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 07:09 pm:    Well after seeing the Rubicon first hand and the Dusi , then going into Yosemite , I was fucking Amazed that you boys have such and issue with the state and the "Groups". That park is by far more fucked up then any trail I saw out there and they were steady bussing the people in and getting their 20 bucks. All the while the signs in the park were telling you what a loser you were for coming there and fucking up the enviroment. its funny that the signs didnt start till after they got your 20 bucks... Then there was all this info about the big ass trees and how sensative they are and all that jazz. We walk around the corner and they had cut one of those big boys in half to run a road through so they could run some little pay tours for the people that didnt want to walk... If its such a treasure why am I seeing so much asphault ? Why doesnt the sierra club go after them ? Who is at fault for the fat squirrels ? The person that gives them some of his ice cream cone or the state that should know better that builds a snack shack in the park and brings the food in so they can make a buck off of it ? This is not really Rocket science.... I dont hear of the same volume of bear interaction and events on the Rubicon or any other trails in Cali. But boy that park is jumping... Kyle   p m Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 08:18 pm:    Kyle, Yosemite is more fucked than you may think. THey won't even let dogs in, to me it means I'm not supporting Yosemite. The same applies to any state park in Cali. Fortunately, some places are better than others - SBD Natl Forest, for instance. And, don't forget, Cali seems to have quite a number of OHVRA's, so you won't have to pay somebody to drive between the sticks. And - you want whale shit? there's some in Hollister, a good part of the year. peter   Dee Cantrell (Discodad) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 08:20 pm:    Kyle, You want Bear interaction go up to Mammoth... Yogi and Boo Boo aint got shit on those guys. California Fed parks like Yosemite serve up nature like Disney fakes reality. The Sierra Club goes after Ranchers and Forestery Harvesters.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 08:30 pm:    I hear ya Dee but I still gotta wonder why. It aint like the ranchers or the Forestry boys are advertising and carting a shit load of people into a "Delicate" area... There are giant busses running 24/7 for christs sake. The whole thing just left a bad taste in my mouth. Beautifull country no doubt , it just pains me to see it so commercialized and two faced...They put a big ass Golf course in there and fucking gas stations. Talk about harming the enviroment ???? WTF?????? And they are bitching about the Squirrells getting fed ? I think we are way past fat Squirrels being a worry when I see a whole posse of funny looking guys in funny hats and knickers swinging away at a little white ball right in the middle of what used to be a very nice meadow.... I wonder if there are signs out there telling them what losers they are for fucking up that enviroment... Kyle   muskyman Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 08:51 pm:    kyle you saying that when a company comes in buys land from a nature conservency, digs huge holes in the ground ,drops in computer controlled irrigation,miles and miles of plastic drain tile, and then shoots down tons of fungicide and pesticide to keep it green that somethings wrong? well dont trip over the National Audobon association sign they paid for when you leave.   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 08:58 pm:    The Sierra Club goes after whomever has yet to pay them off...seriously. I graduated with my degree in Conservation Law Enforcement in '97 and all through my four years in tree hugging/good ol' redneck school and the subsequent years with the Forest Service, I saw nothing but blatant bribery and bullshit to and from the S.C. They Suck. My crappy, opinion, YMMV   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:02 pm:    man, thats the way the world works, it's all who you know. sierra club is no different that any other company. it's the "american way" to do whatever it takes to get what you want. you have to choose the lesser of two evils. if you can go to bed at night you made the right choice. rd merrily, merrily, merrily, life IS but a dream   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:12 pm:    Very well put Rob...you are right on the money. It was very hard to see that, firsthand, when I was 19 and under the impression that it was different... "sometimes a great notion...." RJ   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:22 pm:    I am all too well aware of the way things are. It just struck me funny that Cali is plagued with causes and super heros spear heading them , then , you roll into the "Park" and its one giant ass oxymoron... I mean god damn HELLOOOOOOO!!!! "You cant take your 4x4 into the woods but we can bus in 5 million tourists a day , oh , and dont feed the Squirrels" what a fucking joke... Kyle   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:27 pm:    Kyle, it is funny. Sad too, a weird double standard that makes US wheelers look like teh villains... RJ   Chu Son Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:43 pm:    Well, I guess that's one of the side effects of a capitalist society. I'm sure if someone wants to pay to see 50lb squirrels, they'll quickly get rid of that sign as well. On the note of closing the trails, I still see a lot of morons out there driving through the fields and tossing out their trash. Ya gotta wonder what goes through their heads... chu   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 10:47 pm:    there is a valid point to not speading the destruction. if you are going to have one area trampled, let it get trampled to death, just dont let them go outside the circle. i think that is what happened at yosemity sam park rd   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:38 am:    Rob, that's the way the way the Forest Service handles it with The whites (and most Nat'l Parks) as far as most designated wilderness areas. If an area's alreadly been impacted, just put the people there. That keeps the rest from gettting impacted. A good plan. It's the busses that spook me LOL! RJ   muskyman Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 09:40 am:    yea then bill clinton comes in closes trails and pushes bikers,wheelers,hikers,hourses and other outdoor enthusiasts into new area's its not an easy issue   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:02 am:    i supported clintons closings, some places you need to leave the hell alone period. no cars no nothin. rd   muskyman Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:10 am:    yes some closings are good but when they are made with knee jerk reactions to small groups and not in cooperation with the state they are in(utah) then something is very wrong.   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 12:48 pm:    Kyle, Cali is the most beautiful when the weather turns ugly. It happens rarely, true, but that's when you get it all for yourself. I took my mom to the backroads one day when a good half of San Diego county was covered by wet snow, in a matter of several hours. no tourists... no nobody. just us rolling down the snow-covered road in nearly complete quietness. this is the main reason i keep my 4x4s. maybe they will take most of the land away, but there's so much of it that that you could always find your back door to the wild. Yosemite is a joke, however beautiful it may be, - but you've got to live close to enjoy it when the weather shuts the fucking busses off. There's a great deal of the wilderness accessible by a vehicle in High Sierras, most of it - from U.S.395, between Bishop and Lk.Tahoe. And since there's no tourists, there ain't too many tree huggers, and nobody (yet) questions your right of way. peter   JB Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 05:04 pm:    In looking through some recently posted disco rubicon pics I saw a guy with a pony tail who had placed white garbage bags on the ground to catch his diff or cv leak and possibly/hopefully carry out his defiled dirt... that was nice to see! Whoever you are that was mighty kind of you and we should all follow your good example. All of our tiny leaks do add up in the end.. now if you were doing it only because you needed the extra few ounces of 90wt... it was still good that you recycled ;)   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 05:27 pm:    heheheh - tiny leaks... i think we probably needed more like 590wt to help with that tiny leak.   Ross Thoma (Rossthoma) Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 06:31 pm:    When politics and corperations get involved in any natural area with resources, the environment always looses, in most cases so will the majority of the public. When conservationists get involved in any natural area with resources, The politians and corperations get railroaded and loose and in most cases so will the majority of the public. As you can see the extremists on either side end up fucking things up. One group exploits and wants resources for themselves (Profit) while the other wants no one to have any of it and remove and compartmentelize the human element from thies areas (excessive and unrealistic) The only people who seem to understand the balance that is required are the quiet people who use these areas every day and hope that the conflict will just get resolved and everyone will be happy. It rarely works out that way (ie: all the grumbeling over coffee). I have seen it everywhere I have lived and visited and on the news from my home country of Canada to here in Chicago and in Europe and South Affrica. It is all the same. Money vs environment with Politics in the middle but not quite important to vote on it or spent the money on a public inquiry in to the issue. As a Forester and Fish & Wildlife Tech, Oil & Gas Exploration Tech and Oil field Land Surveyer Hunter and Fisherman with a Camp in Canada and a Disco and who has worked for Federal ,Municipal and Provincial governments and private resource based industry. I feel that I have a good bead on this subject Well that is my rant, and Being Canadian that what we do. RT   Kyle Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:10 pm:    JB , we were trying to get it all but its difficult. The answer to that would have been for the damn thing not to open up. Diff guard didnt have a mark on it and the diff opened up... Go figure... Yes I carried those stinkin bags out.... Kyle   Ron A Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 12:54 pm:    Kyle, California (not Cali) certainly has some �issues� and may be considered a �fucked up state� but not for the reasons you listed. All the destination National Parks have some sever problems with overcrowding, pollution and over commercialization. Yellowstone and Grand Canyon suffer from these same problems but I wouldn�t consider Arizona and Wyoming �fucked up states�. As you are undoubtedly aware these issues are dealt with at the Dept. of the Interior and very little control is given to the state let alone the local level. The vast majority of visitors to these parks are called �tourist� indicating that they probably aren�t from around these parts. Hell I�ve even heard that people drive all the way from Maryland, New Jersey and Canada because of the access and beauty of certain areas in California. There are many offroaders (myself included) that are active in the land issues of this state and the western states in general. It always amazes me that a great deal of the land closure lawsuits are generated from outside the state with no input or concern from the local inhabitants or land users. My guess is that Californians aren�t capable of fucking up this state any worse than it is and need some outside help. Hey maybe if we kept the �tourist� out that would help. Who knows� Ron A   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 01:32 pm:    so, i we can blank out - t- r- a- n- n- y-, why the hell can't we blank out CALI...   James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 02:53 pm:    Usually I try to stay off the soapbox, yet, I have been visiting NPs for many years and limiting access to public land especially to those paying for its maintenance really pisses me off. What Kyle and the boys recently experienced is a classic example of how fucked up the NP System has become overall - not just in CA.. My definition of access to public lands does not include riding in a fucking shuttle bus with scheduled pickups and drop-offs. The NPS was trying to apply the same shuttle bus concept with the "Going-to-the-Sun" Road in Glacier NP as an alternative use method following the planned road's restoration. The locals there including some wild ass Native Americans (been there/seen them) took to task the NPS group from DC and the alternative was excluded from the Rehabilitation Plan/Draft Environmental Impact Statement. Although management by exclusion is one method to preserve the NPs and other public lands, it certainly is the least desireable and hopefully the American public will no longer accept it as demonstrated in the recent experience with Glacier NP. Jaime --------------------------------------------------------------------------------   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 02:57 pm:    Well there were quite a few things I didnt mention. Such as no matter where you went there was a whole heard of Cali plates swarming you at all times... Hell I got off the road in the middle of fucking nowhere to let the poor overhheating Disco catch its breath and got passed by one million californians. The other thing was the fucking people. They seem to be a little mouthy and then completely amazed when you call them out on what they said. Like thier whole lives they just get away with talking alot of shit and no one calls them out on it. I never had problems with people in any state we have visited , ACCEPT CA !!!! Two in one fucking place minutes apart even... And they were all completely amazed that I had something to say to them.... And yes , from the outside its fucked up for exactly those reasons. Everyone is eating ToFu and Veggie burgers and screwing the pooch just as badly as the rest of the states. Nowhere in my state do they bus people into a remote area so they can fuck it up... Now CA is also good for some groups and some "Causes" you dont consider that fucked up ? Hell , I venture to say that if some dude with a flower power shirt stood up eating a ToFu burger and went on and on about how inhumaine bull riding was he might just get his own ass riden......... My State buys land and posts it so that no one can enter. I dont like that much but I like it a damn sight better then pimping it out to whoever is paying..... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:02 pm:    Close em all and bulldoze that asphault. Make it a real bitch to get in there and you wont have an issue any longer. The people that have to work real hard to get in there and see the place will respect it 100 times more...The solution is very simple... And Ron , I am quite certain that those werent Californians working that park... Alaskans or something,,,,yeah , thats it.... And I think it was a Chineese gang that was running the bus services.... Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:05 pm:    Ron A., I see your point about Natl Park policy being administered by the Dept of Interior, irrespective of the geopolitical location of said NP, but you're not arguing that some of CA's policies and general attitude towards "environmental issues" aren't a little whacked-out relative to other states, are you? I think there's a few subtly different points of contention here.   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:10 pm:    And dont get me started on the "Fruit inspections".....God damn state is full of fruits , how'd they get in?????????? Kyle   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:13 pm:    damn bitchin is non stop.   muskyman Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:16 pm:    kyle, I grew up in Wisconsin. I took my first trip to CA in college with three other guys from WI. After the first day we where all sitting there looking at each other asking , how come all these guys start fights with you then dont get it when you want to fight?   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:17 pm:    You cant see it from LA Ho , so its all same..... shuddup.... Kyle   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:17 pm:    Alaskans!!! Californians are way more messed up then Alaskans. Denali will bus you in to the park but, they sure as hell won't let you do anything to mess it up. You can hike in but, you can't drive past a certain part. The bus will go farther but, you aren't allowed off the bus except at certain stops and you aren't allowed to do anything but, use the rest room and then get back on the bus, no food out side the bus. Maybe California could learn some thing from the Alaskans as far as park managment goes.   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:21 pm:    Well it aint the Californians fault Eric,,,, And Musky , yeah , thats exactly it.... lol Freaky shit.... Kyle   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:34 pm:    ya, it's always some one elses fault.   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:42 pm:    What is a "Californian" anyway , I remember Ron mentioning the Donner party.... Or perhaps somethink they grew there like the trees... Kyle   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:49 pm:    Don't know but, if your not Native American Indain then you don't belong there. Of course that can be said for the whole of North America..   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:52 pm:    Yup..... Kyle   John Lee Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:55 pm:    Sorry Eric & Kyle, but the "native" Americans aren't native to North America either. Granted, they did get here before the Europeans did, but that doesn't make them "native". At best, they had first dibs to the land.   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:03 pm:    I somehow knew that was gonna start Jon Jon in,,,,lol..... Fact is that they were here long before us John.. and By todays standards (Especially in CALI) Imagine the suits you could make some dough off of just for the Indians Killed in Cali..... Kyle   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:03 pm:    First dibs is good enough for me. Better then the granola eating, lite beer drinking, salad tossing, ass wranglers that are living in the state right now.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:04 pm:    where did Adam and Eve touch down? They & their offspring are the only TRUE natives. Don't you guys know anything?   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:07 pm:    Oh Shit Eric,,,,lol , I think you just degraded the thread to a new level..... lol Kyle   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:09 pm:    Adam should have kept the rib, and the damn viper should have bit and killed him.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:11 pm:    That's the definition of "Californian" that you were asking about earlier.. Just bringing the rest of the folks into the gutter with me.. Least I could do   p m Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:15 pm:    where did Adam and Eve touch down? but of course, Blue. In California! peter   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:18 pm:    and what was the first thing they did? raped a tree for it's fruit and interfered with the natural behavior of the animals. they must have been republicans.   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:21 pm:    Christ I hope they didnt feed the fat Squirrels , maybe thats the root of all evil.... damn.. Kyle   John Lee Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:44 pm:    "Better then the granola eating, lite beer drinking, salad tossing, ass wranglers that are living in the state right now." Yeah, that makes you sound like a real man Eric. You can pass on the ass wrangling, but you might give the granola, salads, and light beer a try. Take a look at yourself: http://www.grnrvr.com/images/rov8.jpg http://www.grnrvr.com/images/me1.jpg And as for the Indians owning the land first, I don't disagree with that. But I do disagree that their property rights extend in perpetuity. No propery rights are absolute. And Kyle you can talk big about the Indians all you want, but it's only talk. If you want your actions to reflect your talk, you can always relieve your guilt by donating your home to the local Indian Reservation. I'm sure they'll turn it into a casino or something.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:04 pm:    shit, i think it's too late now. everyone hates california. LOL   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:04 pm:    geeezus... ya'll freekn come back now, ya here? heheheh - oh, and I happen to know first hand that Kyle eats Tofu. LOL   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:08 pm:    Quote: you know peters, that shit ain't that bad...   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:19 pm:    "But I do disagree that their property rights extend in perpetuity. No propery rights are absolute." Especially not when violence and forced relocation were the primary means to secure them.   Ron A Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:29 pm:    HAA HAA OK Kyle, I certainly am not the one to defend the state of California. Like many people that live here I moved from another state some 20 years ago and I liked the fact that it doesn�t rain here everyday (I grew up in Washington). The people I consider �Californians� are those that have lived, worked and owned in California for more that one generation of which I am not one. I believe the people you are referring to are imports from other states, maybe even from Maryland. (LOL) Yes California is the capital for nutcases but believe most of them are imports. Now the ones that were �talking a lot of shit� were they really Californians or maybe a couple imports disguised as Californians. Besides are you sure you just didn�t bowl them over with your charming personality? As you may know the Donner Party got a late start crossing the Sierra�s (near the Rubicon actually). Some turned back (John and Ho) some went on ahead (pk) and the rest made a slow daunting journey. I made reference to the Donner Party because of the remarkable similarities to your trip. I thought there might be the possibility a couple Californian rovers would have to be repainted to resemble St. Bernards with a keg of Bourbon mounted on the grill. But alas you did return before winter set in� HAAAA HAAAAA, just kidding you of course. But truthfully of all the nutcases I�ve met in California none could be considered a �Californian�. Just imports. Thanks for the laugh guys, Ron A   John Lee Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:29 pm:    Well Mike you're free to donate your home to the cause as well. I'm sure your home once belonged to the Indians, Mexico, and/or Spain, as well as several others who had the land taken from them.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:33 pm:    okay.. aboriginal american's otherwise know as "native americans" got a raw ass deal. out of white mans guilt i think they deserve a little somin' somin' for their troubles. john, you are exempt from this guilt so you cant really relate. property, shit no one owns property. you think you own your house and land? try not paying your taxes. lets say you always pay your taxes, upstanding citizen in your country. lets assume you live in a piss ass country like, hmm, kuwait. one day the big dog next door takes you over, you no longer own shit.. lucky for you you aren't quite as worthless as some african country the no one really cares about, like the ivory coast. because america doesnt come to help them, we send the french to get our people out and let the savages battle it out. so america flys in and saves your ass becasue, though you are a spec of a country, you got some oil. but to save your ass we built a airstrip over meca.now, dont feel all warm like we are just helping you out,, it a good excuse to build a base. this among other things pisses some people off and ten years later we are under attack. why? because we helped some tiny country from experiencing what we did to the aboriganol america's claiming the land they had lived on for centuries. and cause we didnt want gas to go up a nickle a gallon,,, but this little war on terrorism cost ass alot more than that. you are not what you own. rd   Ron A Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:35 pm:    Oh yea forgot to mention the ToFu and veggie guy. The only one I know that eats that shit is from Tennessee and he's some kind of transient that just travels around. Damn imports... (LLLOOOOLLL) Ron A   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:40 pm:    Ya John, maybe I should try eating some salad every once in a while and maybe you should try moving out of your moms house and getting your own place. I thinks it's time to get that silver strap-on out of your mouth. Funny thing is I know there are more people from the freak state on this board then just you and even you didn't disagree with that statement.   John Lee Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:43 pm:    Wow, that's brilliant. And it's about the kind of response I expected.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:45 pm:    truth hurts huh..   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:47 pm:    Yup, I'm bored so when am I going to get a book to read. I know it's coming..   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:48 pm:    John , I donated it to myself as when my family tree split , half was Indian..... Hows that for ya big boy ? Kyle   John Lee Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:49 pm:    You idiot. If you want to hurt somebody, try using the truth. For example, it's pretty obvious you're pissed off because I called you an ugly fat-ass. As you said, the truth hurts. You're pissed off. So you come back with "get that silver strap-on out of your mouth". Yeah, truth really hurts. You dumb ass.   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:51 pm:    hehehe - now, which state is the freak state? sorry - i was away having some tofu, and lost track of this brilliant mind-share. from what i've seen, as long as we are generalizing about entire sub-federal governed localities, i'm most certain more than one state can qualify for freak-state status. LOL g'night gracey.   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:51 pm:    Oh Yes Mike , I had the token Tofu and the shit wasnt bad at all. Now , had you been carrying two plates that morning and one had some normal type food on it we might have a different outcome... (For those of you that werent there Mike puposfully caught me at a weak moment and shoved the ToFu in my face , he is Wiley like that) Kyle   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:53 pm:    FIGHT!! FIGHT!!!....lol Kyle   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:54 pm:    I call myself fat. No, I made the strap on comment cause your a little rich kid that lives at home with mommy. I'm ugly too if you want to use that.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:55 pm:    kyle, it's ok, i understand.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:56 pm:    Yes, Mike, every state is a freak state. No state is any different some just have more then others.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:57 pm:    john? rich kid?   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:57 pm:    kyle, you want some sausages instead? the not so hot ones?   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:59 pm:    Ron I swear ta Christ I was doing nothing man. I was leaning on the Rover hood having some beef Jerky and trying to figure out if we had actually just run that trail or was I just dozed off for a moment and I am getting fucked at the gas pmp by Morons that keep pulling in the wring way and can obviously see me sitting there. And then there was the Hotel guy that obviously thinks he is king of the fucking world. You can ask everyone I was not provoking..... I swear.. Not like I was doing with you Cali boys earlier,,,,lol I dont know about the imports man,,,,but damn , I dont think it would have impacted me so bad if we hadnt come in the way we did. We spent a few weeks in some pristene areas and freaking loved it. THen to come out of the wild into that shit was maddening.... Now , youare dead on about this Donner thing. I was telling Ho earlier that our party started dwindleing... I was even thinking of canabilizing some parts before they went.... Kyle   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:01 pm:    what is Tofu? peter   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:01 pm:    Yeah , that shit was a little hot and we were trying to budgett our beverages..... Kyle   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:03 pm:    I thought the offical ruling was you are only allowed to start eating the people you are with if a plane crash was involved.   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:03 pm:    hehehe - and he's not kidding about the st bernard thing... had we not heard from u guys by friday, ron and I were heading that way! -AND- we were gonna strap some bourbon to the bumper to make it more authentic! LOL - or was that "strap-on" some bourbon? shit, i'm confused again!!! ok freaks, back to my veggies....   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:05 pm:    Ask any 'Cali' boy: http://www.tofu.com/whatis.html   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:11 pm:    thanks Steve. according to this link, i am a typical american. according to Ron and Kyle, i am a typical import (in the U.S. in general, and California - in particular ). that aside, i don't know a single vegetarian among my acquaintances in California peter   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:13 pm:    and can we PULEEEZE stop saying fucking CALI that's like calling New York, Newey - or Louisiana, Louie - heheheh, WTF?   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:13 pm:    John, if you looked through my web site a little more you would be able to find a picture of me when I'm even heavier then those two and dressed like a complete dork.. http://www.grnrvr.com/images/mefishingwadders001.jpg Ok well that was the dork one here's a good fat one for ya. http://www.grnrvr.com/images/denaliparksign002.JPG Yup, all 6 feet and 275 of me. You working on that book cause it's getting boring around here.   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:17 pm:    or Maryland a 'Mary'?   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:18 pm:    mike, you saying that •••• is like ••••••?   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:21 pm:    yes, that is EXACTLY what I am saying.   John Lee Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:24 pm:    Eric, I guess you're at your "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" stage of this argument. First you make fun of people who eat low-cal foods. I tell you that you're fat and that you might try eating some low-cal foods yourself. You get pissed off and tell me I have a silver dick in my mouth. I tell you this is a meaningless response. You come back with the equally meaningless response that the "truth hurts". So I tell you that the truth does indeed hurt, which is why you got so pissed off that I called you a fat ass. So now you're going to show the world that you're above all of this and I didn't hurt your feelings when I called you a fat ass. So now you now go on and on about how you call yourself fat and ugly and that it doesn't bother you. You even post some more pics of yourself to prove that you are indeed fat and ugly. You're free to do whatever you want. But if you want the world to think that you're a big boy and that your feelings weren't hurt, you're not doing a good job.   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:24 pm:    John, I do not see how your suggesting I donate my house relates to my observation about the relationship between violence and property rights. Unless, of course, your comment is the quick dismissive way to get to the "we have all been fucked over at some point so stop whining" argument as your follow-up post implies. Fact is, property rights, with all its legal definitions and rules of transfer, are a distinct contribution of the nation-state. Tribalism had a different approach. Like the west, when many tribal folks wanted something / needed something that belonged to someone else, they just took it and or moved onto it. The major difference between the western european and Native way of property taking is there was not an accompanying sustained, systematic attempt at extermination of an people within an entire hemisphere. To me, that makes your implied "get over it" argument specious.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:27 pm:    john, i think next you'll have a gold finger up your ass. LOL   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:33 pm:    I can hear the sound of distant typing...   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:39 pm:    Nope John, I'm not pissed. Not even in the slightest. I'm bored and your easy to mess with. I don't care what anyone thinks of me and I have nothing to prove. That was a short response from you though. I didn't even have to scroll down or anything. It all fit on the screen. You must be losing your touch. No Ho, he'd have to move to San Francisco for that. So when you guys were out on the trails did you see any   John Lee Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:44 pm:      Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:47 pm:    Well that's no fun.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:53 pm:    So here's a question for you guys since John and Ho are paying attention.. I know Kyle drives out there to meet up with you guys and do some wheeling and such but, how come you guys don't drive out here visit him and go wheeling? Is it cause most of the trails around here suck or what?   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:02 pm:    Quote: "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" And I always thought it was: "Sticks and stones will hurt my bones, but whips and chains excite me."   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:03 pm:    do i smell hotcakes?   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:04 pm:    For the same reason we would have eaten the •••• boys first,,,,they sooooooofffftttt... Kyle   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:05 pm:    Quote: "And then there was the Hotel guy that obviously thinks he is king of the fucking world. You can ask everyone I was not provoking..... I swear.. " Not provoking at all. Just minding your own business, changing a radiator in the parking lot. I don't have any idea what the dudes problem was, either.   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:05 pm:    yep... i definately smell hotcakes...   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:07 pm:    hotcakes? Around here it's scraple for breakfast. um um good. I bet if a shopper in CA saw that on the shelf they'd fall over dead.   Ron A Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:12 pm:    Oh a gas pump incident that does explain it. Had one of those myself after we left Dusy, just south of Fresno. Got into a yelling match (very one-sided) with a guy that decided to park for the night at the only pump I could get to. Mike and Alan thought I was going to have a Town Car as a hood ornament for the drive home. Freak state� maybe (confined mostly to central California, centered at Berkley), moron state� oh most definitely (LOL). And yes if you would have taken a little more time to fish we could have brought you all the Bourbon you could drink. (grin) Ron A   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:14 pm:    I have no idea how people can eat that stuff. And I live in VA.   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:15 pm:    u know, ron - did you ever tell lisa they made it out? maybe we could still use the rescue-party excuse to get a hall-pass? LOL i'm out of bourbon for the ARB though - will vodka work?   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:17 pm:    and eric, hehehe - somehow I think I already knew that...   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:18 pm:    scraple? I'm afraid to ask.   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:24 pm:    Ron , it would have just about kicked ass if you boys had of rolled in with some more eats and shit as we were sitting at Ershim lake.. I probably wouldnt have a job now but god damn that would have been sweet....We woulda just kicked back..... Kyle   Ron A Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:28 pm:    Peter, you're not even a good example of an import, hell you're a foreign import to boot. I can�t even understand you unless I�ve had a couple shots of vodka. (haaaa haaaa) Only a rrr-oooo-skie would like California when the weathers bad� jeeeez. (LOL) Ron A   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:29 pm:    http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/sleuth/0998/musings.html "First, we begin with the head of a pig (fresh is always preferable to frozen). Exactly which parts of a pig's head are included in Scrapple depends somewhat on regional preference. "To begin, the head should be cut in half, or even quartered. (The ears make for convenient handles while sawing the skull.) While an axe or cleaver can be used to split the head, a saw is preferable in that it produces no bone fragments. "Once the head is sectioned, some people remove the brains. Some remove the teeth - bashing them off with a cleaver. Yet others remove the eyes. The most nutritious scrapple contains the entire head! That said, however, special care should be taken to remove the ear drums. Left in place, they contribute a distinctively bitter taste to the Scrapple, which while popular in Pittsburgh, is generally disliked elsewhere. "Next, all desirous head and non-head matter, including heart, feet and tail, are cooked in a pot with just enough water to cover. During cooking, meat loosens from bone and the skin, ears, rooter and nearly all head gristle softens. The resulting broth harbors an explosion of nutritional goodness! "Bones and loosened meaty matter are strained from the broth, which should be set aside. When the meat has cooled, pick through it, removing bones and hard gristle. Grind up the skin and soft gristle, rooter and so on. Recombine the ground meats with all but about a cup of the strained broth. For each two cups of broth reunited with meat, add one cup cereal (cornmeal) to thicken. Bring to a slow boil, stirring all the time. Add salt, black pepper, red pepper, sage, onion powder, and if you're feeling adventurous, some bacon bits. "Continue stirring until it arrives at the consistency of porridge. Pour into loaf pans and cool. The Scrapple is finished!"   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:37 pm:    hmmm hmm.. them's good eatin's.. HAHAHAHA and you guys laugh at tofu? ( oh- and thanks, al - i knew that someone would just have to post a flippin recipe.. lol )   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:41 pm:    Peters , dont forget your roots man , I know you had that shit as a kid..... Kyle   Ron A Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:45 pm:    hhhhmmmmm Dusy in October that'd be interesting. Couple of inches of fresh snow on Thompson Hill, thin layer of ice on the lakes. Highs in the mid 30's... Think the east coasters would drive back out with Bourbon/Vodka/Rum on their grills if we get into trouble? Ho, you love the cold what you think? Ron A   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:47 pm:    i have to clean the pool in october.   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:47 pm:    dude - i'm telling ya... never close to THAT action... heheheh in fact, i don't think i even know anyone personally that knew anyone that was close to that action! LOL- god, i'm going to be sick... you guys are right - the east is waaaay cooler.. -LOL   John Lee Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:51 pm:    I might have to try this Scapple stuff. It's certainly no better or worse than some of the stuff Koreans regularly eat. If the stuff is like hot porridge and some crispy/spicy/salty bacon bits are tossed on top for some added bam, it might actually be pretty good. Put some on some crispy white toast or an English muffin and it might be really good.   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:52 pm:    Oh my, sounds yummee. I think we call that stucco in CA.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:00 pm:    yup, some scraple, corn fritters, grits, and toast with apple butter.. Now that's a breakfast worth waking up for. I like going wheeling in the snow. Sucks that we don't seem to get any around here any more. I had to drive to Deep Creek Maryland last year just to see some snow and even then it was like 2 inches.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:03 pm:    Ya, John, PHO places around here are serving up soft tendon, bribble (sp), tripe, all sorts of good eats in the soup. I haven't figured out what's in the meat balls yet though.   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:09 pm:    Ron, i might have nothing to say after a couple of shots of vodka... damn... time for some sign language. OTOH... a "foreign import" is a gem! and i really enjoy california when it gets snow. never seen a single rover off pavement in BB or Mammoth or elsewhere when there's some white shit down there. peter   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:10 pm:    Ron , you can bet your ass on one thing. If you boys got in there and no one else close would come get ya. I would be first in line crossing this bitch again..... After all , I could talk shit about that for months... Kyle   HappyTexas Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:13 pm:    My God!!! John you have always appeared to be a whiney little Bitch. And Eric is just a big whiney Bitch. Neither of you have too many good qualities so shut the *&^%$@#&@ up and get back to what the damn site is all about. Land Rovers and enjoying them. I can't believe you guys have wasted so much time acting like little children. Now admit you are hot for each other and kiss and make up!!! Oh by the way I have lived on the east coast and west coast. Both suck!   Kyle Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:15 pm:    I will agree with the last part of that , Coasts suck..... Kyle   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:39 pm:    Don't get me started on Texas... State flower is the Oil Derrick, all that oily smell had me scared shitless for two days crossing that bitch in 98, not knowing if it was me burning oil, or the damn wells... And NOTHING for miles and miles and miles..... "Don't mess with Texas" Don't worry, Bush can have it....   Ron A Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:44 pm:    Yea the coasts do suck... time to get in the Jacuzzi and watch the sunset over the ocean (we get to do that on the left coast). G'nite Gracey ra   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:52 pm:    So? Here in the east we just videotape the sunrise off the Jersey coast and play it backwards at night. Big Deal......   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:53 pm:    Little late there happytexas.. So I take it your not a steer?   HappyTexas Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:56 pm:    Axel, I actually love the Northeast. I just moved to Texas and it is great. Yes lots of open space and some really boring driving but damn it is family friendly! I grew up on Long Island but with 3 kids and one on the way I could never afford to live there! We may have oil derricks but Jersey has some of the ugliest areas in the world. (Some very nice too!) Gotta love those Tanks in Newark.   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 09:39 pm:    Actually, the tanks right by Newark Penn Station was torn down a few years ago, and that REALLY improved the view..... Yeah right... The Big Bend area was nice, though. I was even wearing a Cowboy hat to fit in, so everyone kept saying "Howdy". That was pretty nice. It was also the only day of the year they get snow in that area when I was there, which made for some interesting traffic issues...   HappyTexas Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 10:20 pm:    I come to NY and NJ every month or so for business. I actually would love to move back some day. Right now though Dallas is home and we really do like it. Next time I am in Jersey i will look you up.   Ron L Posted on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 03:45 am:    Hey Ron A. What do you think? Back to central OR ? ofcourse I promised HO I would help him clean his pool.... Ron L   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 11:33 am:    yes ron, i need all the help i can get. thanks.   Steve Andrews (Sillybus) Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 08:27 am:    Sorry to be so late to the party. According to Bible scholars, Adam & Eve are believed to have lived around the Tigris-Euphrates River Valley. According to me, we all derived from primordial ooze, simple organisms from simple amino acids and proteins. There was no Adam, nor Eve.