2002 CDL Update

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Author Message   Rob Vreeland (Cruzths) Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 02:41 pm:    After retrofitting my 02 Disco with CDL a couple weeks ago, I finally got to test it out this weekend. I spent all day at Hollister putting it through its paces and I have 1 word - WOW! What a difference it makes. I've been to Hollister 4 others times without CDL (including my tip over experience) and I must say CDL makes all the difference. Without CDL my ETC was coming on all the time even on the simplest of trails. With CDL my ETC would only have to kick in on the higher pucker factor obstacles. While I was very timid to do any hill climbs I ended up doing multiple climbs including 1 where I went up half way, stopped, turned off my engine, restarted, continued to the top of the hill, stopped and then backed down. CDL worked flawlessly and I was able to keep in total control. I was at Hollister for the Esprit De Four safety clinic and this was one of the obstacles. I spoke to some of the instructors who said they have had multiple Discovery's come through the course over the years and have had several scary situations arise on the hill climbs (and back downs) and actually told me only to do it if I felt totally confident. I explained to them all research I have done about the Discos, their ETC and CDL. They didn't even know any Disco's had CDL. After the day was done they were very impressed with my Disco and one of the instructors even said, "That thing is built!". For anyone without CDL, if you are going to do much off-roading, seriously consider adding CDL to your Disco. Not just to help you through the difficult sections, but just for safetys sake. I truly believe there is a serious problem with the ETC when it comes to hill climbs and it can be outright dangerous. Rob   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 07:52 am:    I'm glad you've seen the light Rob. Welcome. Now I'm interested in hearing about the "tip over experience."   Rob Vreeland (Cruzths) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 10:38 am:    Hey Al.. Several months ago I decided to try a very steep hill climb at Hollister. Conditions of the hill was very hard packed and dusty with several large tire ruts left from previous trucks. While the first 3/4 of the hill was steep, I could not tell that it got even steeper at the top (and the hill was too steep to walk to the top). Anyway, 3/4 of the way up I lost all traction and all momentum. I immedietely got off the gas and onto the break to shift into reverse. By the time I got into reverse I was already sliding backwards and my front end was locked. I started going sideways so I got off the brake and tried to correct to go straight. I did get the truck straight and was going very fast, I feathered the brakes and again my front end locked (or least was not moving as fast as the rear) and I began sliding again. As I neared the bottom of the hill I slowed down a bit but since I was not going straight down I ran up a little embankment on my left side and went off camber. Finally the right rear tire fell into a tire rut and that stopped the truck and caused the front end to lift off the ground. I thought we were going to flip backwards but the truck ended up falling into the passenger side. Total damage was $22K. This included a hydrolocked engine ($9K) as I did not know I should have pulled the plugs once we righted the Disco, before trying to start it. The rest of the damage was all cosmetic. Luckily my insurance company covered everything except my $500 dedutible. For pictures, check out http://homepage.mac.com/jimmy/PhotoAlbum14.html.   Neil Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 02:52 pm:    Jeez Rob thats some scary shit!!Glad to see your okay. Those pictures alone have got my ass in gear to go with CDL, my DII was built in 11/00 and is a 01 model year. Maybe you should send Land Rover NA those pics so they'll bring back CDL on the Disco. By the way whose you insurance company? Neil 01 DII   Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 03:18 pm:    Damn! Thanks for sharing those pics. Even with CDL, I am not sure if I would try that climb. Paul   scubaman99 Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 03:28 pm:    Hey Rob what ins co do you have? did you tell them that this accident happened off road? as i understand it my policy wont cover me if i have an "off road roll over"   Rob Vreeland (Cruzths) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 03:29 pm:    We went back to the hill to try and measure the angle. Mid way up we measured 48 degrees. 3/4's of the way up it was 52. I don't know what I was thinking that day. I'm just glad I didn't get sideways high on the hill and roll all the way down. I have my insurance with Allstate and I checked with them before buying the insurance that they would cover me off-road. Neil - Do you have the CDL bolt on your transfer case? If not, call John Lancaster at "Exclusive" ((408) 374-0131) and ask if he can track you down an LT230-SE transfer case with CDL from a junk yard. John has forgotten more about Rovers than most people learn in a lifetime. He has many contacts. Mention you are a friend of a friend of Luke Porter. Luke is my bud and deals with John all the time, they found me a used Transfer case with only 7000 miles on it. Paul - I will NEVER try to drive up a hill like that again, not worth the risk. However I may go back and winch up it just to get it out of my mind (you know, a little closure). Rob   Neil Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 05:45 pm:    Thanks Rob Since mine is a 2000 model I believe I can bolt the CDL on with out swaping the transfer-case. I have to verify though. Thanks again for the contact. Neil   pk Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 05:55 pm:    So you like the CDL kickin' in there? Wait 'till you try some front and rear TTs. Hehehehehe pk   Rob Vreeland (Cruzths) Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 06:57 pm:    >>> Wait 'till you try some front and rear TTs I think I will probably be going with ARB Air Locker in the rear and TT in the front (or maybe air lockers for both). Rob   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 02:23 am:    Rob, I would suggest taking the TT route. TT's are phenominal in the DS2. PK first suggested that people with DS2's might consider TT's a little over a year ago. His reasoning as that TT's will work in conjuction with the DS2's ETC to effectively lock up. At the same time, they do nat carry the liabilities of DT's or ARB's. He was right. Almost a year ago I blew the stock rear diff in my DS2. My dealer graciously replaced it with the TT. I wheel with guys in locked rigs all the time and have not yet found the obstacle that they can make it over that I cannot (with similar approach, departure, and breakover angles). Once ETC kicks in it effectively locks the diff as long as CDL is engaged. Even with only a rear TT and CDL this means that only one front wheel MIGHT spin. Even then, ETC can much more easily handle one wheel rather than one or combinations of all four wheels. With the D1 you would rely on brake modulation; with the D2 that modulation is enforced with ETC. Curtis   Greg Davis (Gregdavis) Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 09:39 am:    I can second the TT/ETC combo. I did put a Detroit in the rear, but have a TT up front. As soon as TC kicks in, the TT engages and off you go. Very seamless and user friendly. It also handles a little better because the TT is trying to "self-center" itself as you drive down the highway. This helps take away some of the "wander" caused by losing castor from your lift. A very sweet diff for a lifted DII.   Audrey Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:06 am:    Rob, Scary indeed!!! We have experienced similar situation ( must say, maybe not as steep a hill ) in our 2000 Disco II. We also did not have enough power to get out, and stalled 3/4 way up. Backing down, we experienced also not being able to get the vehicle to stand still to do a proper reverse stalling procedure. We also slided side-ways etc. Luckily we did not end up doing any damage to the vehicle (cannot say the same for the nervous system). After this, we returned our vehicle to the dealer, and it spent 2 months there. Had hubs replaced, traction control sensors, and eventually the ABS modulator. - The moral of the story - traction control was not working properly. After we had the ETC fixed, we went back, and it was a completely different situation. I think, any DISCO II owner that wants to do serious off-roading, should have their traction control tested. Even some air in the braking system can cause it not to function 100% Our system had to be "bleeded" twice before the 2 months spent at the dealer. We just came back from a 3 week holiday, and had the vehicle tested as there was some performances we were not satisfied with. Guess what - ETC needs some bleeding again as it takes too long to engage. Regards Audrey   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:36 am:    A couple of questions...do all DII's have ETC and Curtis, I'm familiar with the liabilities of an ARB off-raod (leaks and sh*tty turning when installed and engaged up front...) but what do you mean by the liabilities on road? It functions as a completely open diff... RJ   Tripp Westbrook (Tripp) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 10:04 am:    Pardon my ignorance, but what's a "TT"? T-   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 10:19 am:    Detroit True-Trac a limited slip diff...but with the ETC, they function VERY well as you have the street/tight quarter drivability of a limited slip, but the traction of a locker in many situations. RJ   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:18 pm:    I've been told the TT's work well in D2's and they're excellent up front even if you go with ARB in the rear. But I don't see how TT's would work any better with ETC. I would think the ETC would make them work less well. RJ - All D2's have 4 wheel ETC. And the poor turning of ARB's when locked up front comment... isn't turning with a locked front something to avoid anyway?   Greg Davis (Gregdavis) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:54 pm:    With a TT, if you don't have ETC, you will have to left-brake to make it engage. With ETC, the computer does that for you, and hopefully a lot faster than you could do it manually. Just makes it a more seamless operation.   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:56 pm:    Al, yes but on low traction surfaces like snow or dirt (although a locker in snow is rather exciting at times lol) is okay as the tire slips. Turning with a locked front can just be a big PITA! That's why I was questioning if that was what other liabilities the ARB "offered." RJ   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:16 pm:    Okay... I'm clueless as to how the TT works then. What is the trigger for the TT to lock? Is there a site that explains it?   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:51 pm:    True Trac Page   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 07:14 pm:    "They provide a controlled amount of resistance to a one-wheel spinout, so that the other wheel (with traction) receives sufficient power to keep the vehicle moving." I understand that. So the TT is just a LSD diff. But I still don't get how it would work better with the ETC vs. without ETC. I don't understand the need to left foot brake or ETC with an LSD.   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:04 pm:    With a regular LSD (I'll draw from my experiences with the Jeep Trac-loc)...if you lift one wheel in the air, it will indeed spin and the grounded tire will barely get any torque. Guys will, if it's the rear wheel in the air, apply the ebrake to stop the spinning wheel (or at least create more of a power shift to the grounded wheel). If it's the front wheels in question, left foot braking is usualy done. With ETC, I'm assuming that the Disco will "sense" the spinning wheel and apply the brake automatically. This makes the TT even more efficient in it's execution. RJ   Chu Son Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:23 pm:    The ETC surely engages the TT, but it also maintains the jerky forward momentum that can cause problems in tight situations. I don't notice it as much on the truck with dual TTs as the ETC barely intervenes. If you're in a teeter-totter situation on a fairly steep grade, the ETC will make the truck jump up and down a bit as you increase throttle. If you're already sitting tippy and you're a weenie like myself, it's not a comfortable feeling. For a truck with the dimensions of a D2, I'd say a rear-only TT is plenty good. From what I hear, it's much more durable than the stock rear diff and it is a noticeable improvement over stock in terms of torque transfer. chu   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:23 pm:    So the TT is locked (or almost) when both wheels are rotating at the same (or close to same) speed?   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:35 pm:    50/50 would be true lock, so yeah when it's a 50/50 split on low traction (low-no traction on one side and good tracyion on the other) surfaces, yes the TT is locked...ooooof did I make that messy enough? LOL! RJ   Chu Son Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:52 pm:    I wouldn't say it locks completely. I still see one side spinning faster than the other. It just doesn't do it mindlessly like the ETC. chu   Jorge Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 04:09 pm:    Guys, does any one have pictures/diagram of the CDL bolt/lever? last night, I was trying to locate it in my Disco II (1999), but could not identify it!! Thanks, Jorge   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 06:03 pm:    Take a look at figure 1 on http://www.expeditionexchange.com/cdl/indexmain.htm   Chris C Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:32 pm:    Has anyone here had experience with a Quaife center diff with TT's front and back?   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:39 pm:    Is there a Quaife for the LT230SE? Either way wouldn't a CDL enabled LT230SE transfer case swap cost about the same and give you a full locking CD?