Removing key while in Drive mode. Is ...

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Author Message   Paddy Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:05 pm:    Manual says key can only be removed in P mode. My key came out in Drive mode, rolled backwards and smashed rear end of vehicle. My brothers Disco cannot remove key in Drive. Any thoughts welcomed.   Ross Thoma (Rossthoma) Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:14 pm:    My Ranger does that on the origional key only. The brass of the key has worn down to the point that the key can slip through the locking teeth. The the other second key, it should not come out. The fix is to get a new key cut or be more careful and dbl check before you exit your Landy.   Robert Sublett (Rubisco98) Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 07:25 am:    No one was in the car behind the wheel with the truck in Drive? I usually put mine in park before I get out, not usually, Always...sorry to hear of your misfortune but you have got to pay more attention man..   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:00 am:    How could the key have come out? I am assuming there was no one in the vehicle, the key was left in the ignition, then came out on its on, etc. How long had the vehicle been left with the key in? Was the engine on? Can you walk me through this?   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:47 pm:    Mike, sounds like he just forgot to put it in park before shutting down, yanking the keys, and exiting. I've done this (when preoccupied with wife, baby, cell phone, soccer balls, double latte), but the stuck key always reminds me that I forgot something. The key should NOT be coming out when you're in drive. Something is broken (key or ignition). Got warranty? Got insurance? Of course, there's one other thing that would have solved this: the parking brake.   muskyman Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 01:18 pm:    park safty switch???   Paddy Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 02:58 pm:    Great inputs. Thanks. Pulled in driveway. Distracted by kids playing. Talking through window etc to family. Distracted. Turned engine off, key came out. Went inside. Car rolled backwards in Drive. 100 yards later came to rest by a huge tree. Car totalled at rear. The key comes out in D, R, 3, 2 and 1. Dealer said this morning they have never seen this before. My wifes doesnt and my brothers doesnt. Impossible to remove on theirs. I can even change gears without key inserted. I am thinking of asking for a new vehicle. 19k miles on this one. Shocked and dismayed. I am from europe but my neighbours are all Chevy and Ford. Sad PR day for Landrover. Paddy   Paddy Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:49 pm:    Dealer agrees that my keys can be removed in any gear mode. Said three coins found under gear mount caused the problem I find that hard to believe. However, LR may have to recall all models if so. Real flaw.   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 11:08 pm:    Now that gives me pause when I read that about the coins. Back when I thought I was going to install a stealth CDL, I had the gear shift cover off, and was surprised to see a couple of coins under that domed cover. I recall now one quarter was not a few centimeters from making contact with a couple of shiny looking connectors. I did not give it much thought then, but in hindsight after reading this information, I wonder what would have happened had it touched.   trevorgriffiths Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 11:44 pm:    I know that the DI has a shift interlock so that the key cannot be removed without the gear selector being in park. I had a customers DII in the shop last week, and I now remeber the key being removed in gear. I will consult my manuals tomorrow to confirm an ignition interlock system on the DII   Paddy Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 07:48 am:    Thanks for the inputs. I am concerned about taking it back and returning 2 more since the risk for a huge catastrophe is very possible. If coins are the problem, America, fast food, tolls etc is not conducive to a D2 as company vehicles. I hope they are wrong. I love LR.   Paddy Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 08:01 pm:    LR USA are adamant that 3 pennies got under my gear selector mount and caused the malfunction. If so D2 have a serious safety flaw and should be recalled. Any further inputs would be very welcomed on this.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 08:10 pm:    Are they going to honor the warranty, or it the 3 pennies' fault? -Blue just offering my two cents   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 10:07 pm:    That would make a nickel, will that cause a problem, too? Seriously, just put the damn parking brake on, and forget about it. There have to be some personal responsibility. Really.   Paddy Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 11:01 pm:    I agree on the personal error point, but, if my D2 is not in Park fully due to coins obstructing, and I exit with keys in hand am I totally at fault? Bear in mind in America these autos are automatic and not left in neutral with a parking break on. The dealer has numerous on his lot with out the park brake on. I feel the public should be aware that a malfunction is possible, and kids should not play on the driveway as often seen in the USA ( hoops, hockey etc ), especialy behind my d2. LR USA have not expressed any comment. Im amazed.   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 07:27 am:    If the dealer jumps off a bridge, are you going to do it, too? It's not hard to pull the parking brake. Are you telling me that you are going to depend solely on that weak little parking pawl in the transmission to hold your car instead of using the parking brake? Yes, malfunctions are possible. Every man made piece of machinery can -and will- break at some point. Which is why you have to realize that shit can happen, and take precations accordingly, instead of trying to push blame over on somebody else.   Paddy Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 08:26 am:    I am not blaming more enquiring and warning. I have never heard of this and posted a question. My stance is that this could happen again if coins can get under the gear mount. Next time a fatality? It will be the only auto vehicle I have ever had to park with the handbrake on. A survey would prove majority of people dont do this. Your point is valid, however LR do have a problem.   Alan Bates (Alanb) Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 10:21 am:    Paddy: Write a letter/call to LRNA and the dealer that you are going to file a complaint with NHTSA. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ A while back I saw on the news that a lady here in Oklahoma had her Jeep Grand Cherokee jump out of Park, while the car was running, and reversed out across a highway and totalled it. Jeep eventually had to recall alot of GC's because of the problem. LRNA is probably going to try to blame something or someone else so that they will not have to do any recalls $$$. But if you file a complaint with NHTSA then it goes on record and maybe there are others out there that also have you problem and NHTSA might step in and investigate the problem and possibly issue a recall. You could also call up the local news station, as this lady with the Jeep did, and tell your story to them, they usually love to have these kind of consumer alert stories. I feel you pain.   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 10:27 am:    Paddy- "It will be the only auto vehicle I have ever had to park with the handbrake on" Hmmm - that about sums it up right there....... As Ax said - doesn't matter what autobox in what vehicle you drive - you are given a "PARKING" brake for a reason - use it. Relying on the parking pawl in any vehicle is just stupid. Bill   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 03:14 pm:    FWIW, Every time I park the Rover, I first engage the parking brake, then shift the transmission to neutral, let off of the foot brake, so that the parking brake is the only thing holding the Rover still.... then I put it in park. -L   Paddy Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 09:29 pm:    Thanks for all inputs. However, having had LR in the family for many years, I am convinced a flaw is there to be corrected. Personal responsibility aside, LR is accountable. This rugged go anywhere vehicle, should stop in Park, and not release my key if not in park.R and P are too close. I learned my lesson with handbrake but will warn friends, clients etc of my case. Truly, thanks for all comments, friendly or harsh. No offence taken.   Gil Stevens (Gil) Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 09:51 pm:    The thing here is the D2 does not show this "flaw" until there is driver error; i.e. driver error causes said flaw. Therefore there really is no flaw at all. I have never heard of this and Ive been around these trucks every day for years now. I really dont think you would have much of a case. In order for this to happen, the driver must make 2 errors. One being to allow coins to mysteriously slip under the shift housing, and then this driver has to leave the vehicle in gear, whilst removing the key and not setting the handbrake. hell.. thats 3 errors. Unfortunate situation indeed, but nobodys fault but your own. Thats what insurance is for..   Jack Quinlan Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 10:47 pm:    While I fully agree that one should always use the parking brake regardless, I have to feel sympathetic to Paddy. You guys all have discos right? DI or DII I have ALWAYS found the parking brake to be pathetic. Not just when I'm on a rock slope, but even on slightly uneven asphalt. I love Landies, but the parking brake sucks. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if it didn't stop the truck from rolling across the street. Paddy, get serious with LRNA but don't go the local news route, for yours and LRs sake.   Jeff Price Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 08:47 am:    Jack your parking brake is out of adjustment. I park on a steep slope near the house here all the time and I always hang it on the brake before turning the wheels into the curb. With the brake set properly the vehicle is all but undriveable. -jeff   Alyssa Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 12:37 pm:    Jack, I've got to agree with Jeff. LR's parking brake is one of the best around. Yours must have a problem.   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 01:29 pm:    I have to second that. I routinely use mine in addition to the regular brakes when I have to do steep, slow decents. Didn't have any problems with it on Rubicon and Dusy.   Sus (Susannah) Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 03:40 pm:    Wow, you know I used my parking brake while waiting for another vehicle in front of me on a trail at MAR...and it didn't stop the car much. Maybe I should have it checked too!   Paddy Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 07:47 pm:    LR update. Coins found were American, therefore, not a manufacturing defect or it would have been pennies. However, coins can get in somehow and cause my gears to be unsafely engaged in Park. Unacceptable to me, family and neighbours. I will now fight this issue.   Greg Davis (Gregdavis) Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 08:52 am:    Last year someone on this or the Yahoo forum couldn't get their vehicle out of Park. Turns out some coins had also found their way under the shift cover and were preventing the shifter from moving. I would suppose it comes from laying coins down on the center console and then they slide underneath when going through turns. There is a sizable gap underneath the shifter cover.   Paddy Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:13 am:    My point exactly. It seems LR have a problem and should address this before a fatality occurs. Mine easily could have. Landed by a playing area. My LR was not new and I dont keep coins lying around. So LR should rectify this or warn the public now!   mongo Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:33 am:    It was my DII that had the coins stuck in the shifter. I don't think LR has a problem...Sorry, it was my fault the coins got into the shifter... I would like to see if this has happened a lot, or just isolated to a couple of miss placed coins... Cheers, Frank   Paddy Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 02:14 pm:    How do assume you are at fault. What if your children borrowed your d2. Are they to know of the possibility of coins being able to slip under the mount. I am not blaming LR either, just that I am not entirely at fault. I just bought it, can see that coins can lay sloppily around the mount. Three bends later a dangerous money box is born! LR manufactured this mount. Deal with it, fix it, or deaths will occur. Simple as that. Thanks for your opinion though. I respect that.Best regards, Paddy   Mark Albrecht Posted on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 12:57 pm:    Paddy -- Just reading your thread and thinking that sucks. Then it hit me, my '01 DII does the same thing. Over a year ago when I'd had the disco only 6 months I had to call roadside assistance because the disco wouldn't start. To make a long story short I'd left the car in Drive and it won't start without the gear in park (yes, it was an "I'm an idiot" incident, but I was dropping off the kid, distracted, and I'd just been driving a manual for the last 9 years). So I checked yesterday, the key can come out in any gear. Good thing I wasn't on a slope. I haven't pulled the console to check for coins, but I can tell you that I'd be surprised to see any (I'm anal about that). Guess I'll be using the e-brake from now on.   Paddy Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:15 pm:    Update. After getting a " crap happens " vibe from dealer, I raised the tempo in volume, sadly to say. I again contacted customer service at Land Rover. Case is stagnating there. So, I wrote to President of company. I am hopeful of good communication. I am also going to seal around the gear mount on my other Discovery. I could slide a golf tee under that one. Will update.   arealist Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 04:01 am:    Jeez, Paddy. Just pay attention to what you're doing. It isn't the cars fault you "were distracted." Just keep it cleaner inside and use the brake for what it was intended--a backup for park! You didn't bother with either--pure negligence on your part, if you ask me ~<8-)~   Paddy Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 08:53 am:    Vehicle was used when bought.I keep it very clean. I dont know anyone over here in USA that parks on a fairly level surface that uses the handbrake on Automatic vehicles. Coins got in, park wasnt engaged properly, keys were removed ( a mental and usual indicator that you are parked ), vehicle rolls. Not negligence, vehicle failed me at crucial time. A lot of replies seem to indicate they park manual D2's. This is automatic. I will assume responsibility to a point, but what next. Check under the gear mount when I leave the vehicle. What if the hand brake also is weak ( as stated on this forum ). Place blocks behind tyres!. Some companies use these as rentals. The public should be aware. If one life is saved, its worth it, and if this happened on your driveway and you saw what I saw you wouldnt be hard on yourself. You would look for answers. I did. Didnt like what I saw. Want to rectify it, and Land Rover should know and have the chance to fix it. I am doing the right thing. No doubt at all. If any one wants pictures of problem let me know. Respectfully, Paddy, [email protected]   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:50 am:    this is a prefect exampl of why one should always use the hand brake, you want it to become part of the ritual of getting out of the car, that way you dont need to think "pull the brake" you just do it. every once in a while i come out to my car and find that i forgot a set, sometimes to put it in park, or sometimes to pull the lever, i have yet to forget to do both... same with turn signals. i get laughed at because i'll use them offroad. but i am just so in the habit of using them that it is an unconcious action. i absolutly hate morons that dont use thier signals. rd   anotherrealist Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 02:30 pm:    I have an automatic and I ALWAYS set the brake before I get out. It's a safety issue--and it's why they put the durn thing in the truck in the first place! Landies have exceptionally good parking brakes that act by locking both front and rear drivelines. I can leave mine in neutral on a steep hill and it holds great with three clicks--and it's now 16 model years old!!! If your brake won't hold the vehicle on an incline--ADJUST IT! An unmaintained vehicle is not safe! Niether is one that is not used properly, Paddy.........   anotherrealist Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 02:47 pm:    Oh, and in thinking about it, I can remove the keys from the ignition in any gear. I have missed putting it in Park, but THE BRAKE does it's job. Only happens occasionally that I miss Park, but I always know I did when I get in to go and it won't start... My driveway is a big hill! No worries, because I use THE BRAKE! did i say i use the brake so my truck CANNOT roll away? And people criticize Darwinian Theory.......   Will Pace (D1d90) Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 03:44 pm:    So if I have a coffe mug roll under the brake pedal preventing me from depressing it and I mow down, let's say, a line of people at the theatre buying tickets then I need to tell LR they have a problem because a foreign object of mine got in a place it shouldn't have and caused damage? I don't think so. Paddy, you're a man for taking all the responses lightly and I think you are doing the right thing to notify LR but the only way LR has a real problem is if they knew this already and didn't fix it. Which, of course is entirely possible. It's not their fault but you should pursue them to prevent it in the future. It would be no fun expressing all these opinions if it were over the life of a child. But if I left mine in D sans brake I'd chalk it up to a big F'ing mistake by me.   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 05:36 pm:    Quote: "A lot of replies seem to indicate they park manual D2's" There are no manual D2's in the US, Paddy. LR haven't imported manual Disco's since 96 or so. The D2 was introduced in 99. A lot of people, including myself, use the parking brake in any car, regardless if it is manual or automatic. It is just common sense. I will go along with your point that common sense seems to be in short supply among many segments of the population, however.....   Paddy Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 07:00 pm:    It seems that I am totally at fault for not applying the hand brake. I have learned my lesson on that point, and it clearly states in the manual that it should be used every time you park.I always drove a manual before living in the USA and I always used the hand brake when parked. However, the automatic drivers and cars I have seen and used, people rarely use their hand brake. Poor habit. I now know better. But, I will still pursue LRNA to ensure the gear mount where it sits on the counsel has a better seal to prevent foreign objects falling in there. If metal objects can short circuit a safety system and allow key removal, plus block true gear placement, then lives are at risk. LR are responsible to correct this. If this was apparent at design stage it would have been taken care of promptly. LR are not denying that this has not happened before. They just are being defensive for liability reasons. I am not looking to sue LR or demand an unfair deal. You can imply Im stupid all day long, but the real stupidity is blind loyalty to a beloved brand, irrespective of potential safety. LRNA may decide to ignore my letter. The safety council may not. I dont think either will and I will continue to warn fellow drivers of this potential until it is rectified. By the way. Have you tried to slip a coin under the mount? Try it. If it goes in as easily as mine does, then there is a problem. I have tried it in many D2's under supervision and some are so easy, others you have to force harder, but not much. I will update LRNA's findings for fairness on this post. However after 50 years of LR ownership in our family, I am disappointed in my vehicles gear mount. The vehicle I love. LRNA have yet to impress me. If they dont I wont drive another D2 until I feel everyone in my family is 100% safe on this issue. I love the Freelander, so unless LRNA are totally ignorant or rude, I will go that path. I am fair, will accept my punishment for my lack of concentration and not double checking I was fully in Park ( but who does 100% all the time?), but I am not stupid either, and real stupidity would be ignoring this incident or defending my favourite manufacturer blindly.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 01:05 pm:    FYI , is it a good idea to use the parking prake, but when you are on a hill in an automatic, with foot still on brake, yank the hand brake and then let off the foot brake. the car will creep forward slightly then stop. THEN put the lever into park. it will help postpone possible premature parking-brake pawl failure becasue the weight of the car will be held by the hand brake. rd   EricV (Bender2033) Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 12:30 am:    I can remove the ignition key in any gear as well. About a month ago I forgot to engage Park and the truck started rolling back out of its parking space. Luckilly someone noticed and called out to me. Now I find myself paraniod and sometimes walking back to the truck and double checking. I will have to see if there are any foreign objects in the shift mechanism. Keep us posted Paddy! (oh, D1 btw )