"97" manual 5 speed

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Author Message   max garcia Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 04:19 pm:    I have a 97 manual. I have seen about 12 other "97"'s and they were automatic's. Just curious are the manual's rare and are there any other differances between the manual/auto Disco's?   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 04:44 pm:    the only difference is just that... manual gear instead of auto... same shit.. I have 2 96 manual and I'm very happy with them! pk has a manual 96 as well.. 97 i don't know but manuals are all rare..too many lazy bastards here Simon.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 10:59 pm:    '94 and '95, manuals were more common than later years, but still not a lot of them. '96 saw a big reduction in the number of them, though, and there were few manuals in '97. The manual was originally designed for a 4-cyl. It has been upgraded and remodeled over the years, and it's fine with the diesel engines... but with the V8, it's pushing its limits. If you drive it well, it'll be fine, but the auto ZF is a stronger transmission. And, the auto is usually regarded as preferable when offroading, one less thing you have to think about. FWIW.... -L   muskyman Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:16 pm:    -L only in the rover/disco community have I heard people really say auto is better then stick offroad. allthough there are lots of people that will chime in and say race trucks this race trucks that.recreational 4 wheel drives are much more capable and have many advantages offroad with a stick. the autobox is much easier to learn how to use offroad but as far as better? the connectedness of a stick offroad is much better. you can hang the rearend out to avoid sway in fast corners.you can bumb start it when the starter pukes.you can decend hills in much better control both forward and backwards. auto's are easy but stick still rules the offroad   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:26 pm:    Musky, Don't get me wrong, I would HATE the series if it had an auto in it. But, check out the FSJ boards, too.... there, the auto is also preferred. I don't care about race-trucks. You shouldn't be going through corners fast when off-road. Yes, you can bump-start, and it's helpful when descending. But when rockcrawling up, the auto is smoother. On long trips, your left leg isn't getting worn out. This has been discussed to ad nauseum here, no need for me to recreate the wheel.... -L   muskyman Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:38 pm:    "You shouldn't be going through corners fast when off-road." why?...   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 09:16 am:    for some reason here in usa autos are preffered over the manuals but I just think is because they are lazy.. hehehe simon.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 09:20 am:    humm Les... long trips? are you sure? I thought it was in traffic where autos are better but even that is null to me.. I'm just used to it, it's all mecanic.. Simon.   Gil Stevens (Gil) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 10:57 am:    "The manual was originally designed for a 4-cyl. It has been upgraded and remodeled over the years, and it's fine with the diesel engines... but with the V8, it's pushing its limits" I dont see that at all. That seems to be the rhetoric on this board but my R380 hasnt lived an easy life and it shows no signs of being near its "limits." It certainly makes alot more "clanging and banging" noise in low range, but it has never felt "weak" The advantages of a manual are clear, and those that argue for the auto-box obviously have a case of 5-speed envy...   James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:10 am:    Have both and they each have their place. Was much easier going down Blackbear with an auto box. Like driving the manual better though as you can get better performance out of the V8. Jaime   R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:42 am:    I've got both too, and I like the Auto better both ways. The Series truck is made for Manual though, it just wouldn't be the same, unless I end up getting a deisel in it. If you read the Brit magazines you will see them say time and again that they believe auto is better for off road. You have more of that smooth control that is so essential, you can do left foot braking, and you simply have less to worry about. http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 12:00 pm:    magazines are paper.. paper holds everything... the proff in inthe usage... go to south american jungles or the outback or the african shit.. how many manuals and how many autos? and why? not 4x4 parks i tell you that. Simon.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 12:05 pm:    becuase manuals are cheaper and most auto's arent built as well as the LT77 rd   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 01:05 pm:    Rob that's here that they are cheaper.. in south america manuals are equal or more expensive... it's all demand .. S.   James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 02:06 pm:    Think it depends more on the country in SA than just SA in general. In Santiago, Chile the Freelanders were manual - the Discos and RR were autos. In Monterrey and DF, Mexico all I saw were autos. As LR manufactures 90s and 110s in Brazil, they were manuals with diesel engines in Sao Paulo and Rio. In Rio there was a 110 without a rear tub on it. You could order what you wanted. The RR and Discos were autos. Buenos Aires, Argentina only had 1 Disco and 1 RR in the showroom both autos. Caracas, Vzla Freelanders were manual and the Discos and RRs auto. There are many old 2-door RR you see that are manuals. With gas about 25c a gallon, diesels not to popular. Lima, Peru didn't have a dealer yet the few Discos I saw were autos. Bogata, Col mostly RRs with that glass that has the "line" around it showing it is bullet proof. Some old Series with manuals running around. So, maybe the older LRs are manuals, yet, the newer ones I've seen are mostly autos. Jaime   Gil Stevens (Gil) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 02:20 pm:    i remember reading somewhere that in America, during model year 2000, only 9% of ALL vehicles sold were equipped with a manual. 91% of the population wants an automatic?? talk about a lazy bunch..   R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 02:48 pm:    aaahww whatever, it really doesn't have anything to do with lazy. If I was lazy I wouldn't fly twin engine planes. I'm just partial to the abilities I have seen my auto have over my manual. It is easier to off-road. And easier usually means less possibility of damage. Try doing left foot braking with a manual, it only works when you DON'T have to shift - when does that happen? Only when you have an auto. If you like driving with a manual that's fine. Just don't think it has anything to do with laziness that I have an auto. Now if you never take your Rover off-road, and then you choose an auto, that IS laziness. It just makes parking at the mall soooo much easier! http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net   Gil Stevens (Gil) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 03:00 pm:    R.B... I wasnt saying that YOU in particular are lazy, just that we as a society are lazy. When compared to the rest of the world, from my experience of spending a few months traveling thru Europe, EVERYTHING over there is manual. Minivans, cargo vans, trucks, cars.. whatever. Granted they run much smaller vehicles with much smaller engines that need a manual to keep the motor in the powerband. Ever driven an automatic 1.3 liter?? YIKES!! its downright scary. I hear you about the auto being easier to drive off-road, but thats not necessarily true. Driving a stick off-road is like learing to drive all over again, but once its mastered its no more or less difficult than driving with an automatic. Plus, you cant bond with an automatic vehicle, you never really get to know it well enough.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 03:30 pm:    don't close your finding only in the land rover trucks.. also look at the toyota, nissan, jeep, izuzu and the rest of 4x4s.. in south america a real 4x4 aint no auto.. period. again they don't go to any 4x4 parks.. 4x4 is part of there commuting... with automatic they always have problems, brakes are the first... then the auto boxes etc. here the sales are mandated by demand.. try to find an suv "manual" in flat florida.. and the demand by 99% of people that don't use 4x4 for what they are made for... and those are a bunch of lazy bastards.. s.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 03:38 pm:    oh and land rovers there are twice the price from here or more and at those prices not many are using the Land rovers (rr and discos) for off road stuff either.. in caracas you can buy defenders too... so the rest of south america. S.   James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 04:26 pm:    Don't know about the other brands as my interest is in LRs and just stating what I saw. The ones I looked at were higher priced than here in the US, yet, not twice as much. Have never seen a Defender of any type in Vzla; guess they could be there. While there are many cool places to take a 4X4 in the SA countries, especially the rainforest areas, the roads aren't that bad for the most part. Yeah, in some places pretty rough, yet, you can say that in areas of the US also. What countries have you visited out of curiosity? Jaime   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 05:28 pm:    LOL did you really went to rural places? you only say capitals or "developed" cities from south american countries.. i've been in rural places in: venezuela (must of it) Brazil north border to vzla Colombia east border to VZLA Mexico yucatan peninsula some islands too..( jamaica, roatan, fiji, etc) and I've been in USA for 13 years and canada for 2 and I haven;t seen one place where people live their entire lifes like they do south, or roads like in SA.. north canada is that bad when you add the cold weather..but I never been north of algonquin.. the price of a disco is about +/-$50,000 when I checked 01 models in vzla the late models of LRs are just for city driving.. no one is going to take such a truck in the rain forest.. and not just because you can ruin you truck.. you could die because of it. if you don't look at other brands your not looking ever been in maicao la gran sabana anywhere in apure in amazonas no way man...no way.. Simon.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 05:48 pm:    LOL - you guys are talking about who is lazy and who is not lazy and you're parking your asses in a truck to get from point A to B. You push an extra pedal every now & then and you're therefore "not lazy". Manual is fun in a sporty car. If driven right it can help you get that extra fraction of a mile in gas mileage. Or it can let you take better advantage of torque curves. You just like grabbing stick, admit it   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 05:50 pm:    simon, how many bad range rover transmission you hear of, off all the posts here, how many times do we hear complaint after complaint about trannie? damn near none. why with the manuals in SA? because they techs are too stupid to trouble shoot an auto. rd   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 06:21 pm:    so simon, you like holding a stick eh?   pk Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 06:21 pm:    It doesn't matter, Auto and 5 speed are identical offroad. As long as you can get torque to 4 wheels, the rest is about the driver. One type of trans will do better here and the other will do better there. Face it, its like arguing over the cigarette lighter... pk   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 06:35 pm:    well pk, you like holding a stick too.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 06:37 pm:    you guys use the western grip as well?   pk Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 06:37 pm:    I prefer to think of it as a knob.... pk   Kyle Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 07:27 pm:    I have no comment other then www.roversolutions.com/images/TTaction.mpg I am trying to count how many times I have heard that starter over the years... Kyle   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 07:35 pm:    actually pk, kyle just reminded me... remember when you burned the 8000 pounder winch?   Kyle Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 07:44 pm:    PK?? You there? Kyle   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 07:45 pm:    hmm, i think he gone swimming or something...   Kyle Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 07:45 pm:    Damn , I hope he dont stall and drown.... Kyle   max garcia Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 10:41 pm:    Thanks everone. I like my stick. I just found it odd that must of the 96's I saw were stick but most of the 97's were auto.   jp Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 09:59 am:    The original LR 5 speed box (LT77) was designed for the SD1 sedan (V8,6cyl and 4cyl), and also went into the TR8. The R380 is a slight redesign to lift capacity, and provide synchro reverse, the basic case is almost identical. An R380 will still fit into an SD1, or even the older P6 sedans. I ran two V8 SD1 for over 100k miles each, and never had any box problems - some clutch probs only. I have an LT77 in my 74 P6 now. And my 97 Disco is a manual too!   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 11:44 pm:    rob the stupid is you and face it you are just bitter that some latinos took all your money your woman and all your pride down in central america... stupid... ohh and yes I love to play with my stick why? practice makes perfect! LOL Simon.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 11:54 pm:    a fact that no one can deny is that the rest of the world with a lot harder terrain than us here manual speeds outnumbers auto boxes by a lot... and that is for something... don't stop in your little worlds watch the whole thing! and rob no.. is not just that we like to play with our sticks some of us do but not all it's weird.. I thought after your incident with richard simmons I thought you liked sticks too LOL Simon./   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 11:58 pm:    ho you know damn right you lazy! LOL... Simon   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 12:16 am:    ../2/9863.html"#333333">   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 10:35 am:    i am humbled simone....   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 06:35 pm:    you da man! LOL   Kyle Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 07:58 pm:    Simon , while you are schooling us on the stick. Why not share some of your adventures with us... ??? I know you have conquered many different tyes of terrain in it.... Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 09:14 am:    LOL...so now you don't find what to say and go for that? come on kylita... you better than that... so..where have you been... mister "world traveler" have you seen first hand what's out there? LOL Simon.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 10:14 am:    What ? "Go for that?" I am simply asking for you to illustrate to us from where it is that you draw your conclusions and from what types of terrain... Judging by your posts you simply must have something... Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 11:31 am:    kyle.. "that" means that your intentions are to change the subject... if you like to know what "terrain" then you can read what I wrote earlier.. I've been in all those places and more... some I drove some I sat beside as a "bar tender" some I was so wasted that don't know how I got there hehehe and some don't have cool names either....or names at all... and that is first hand experience.. terrain... well let's see.. some rocky, not as bad as pics of "rubicon" that I saw in here and EE but rocky enough... some muddy as bad or worse than anything here in usa some sandy beside the couple beaches you can drive in USA, in VZLA and maybe South america most of the beaches are accesible by truck and the best only by good 4x4s and to tell you the truth... almost all of those places have real people living there and their day to day commute for years are harder that some days in the rubbicon... "read good" I'm saying YEARS of abuse instead of your always good ol expedition theme to not just "do the trail" but get "back home" argument.. and why almost all have 5 speed vehicles? maybe because they are easier to work on? maybe I'm not a mechanic maybe you can teach me.. maybe because they are better to use all the power from their little engines? maybe i'm not a mechanic.. maybe because its easier to start an engine without battery or without starter? maybe... I was in a beach with my friend and his CJ5... some nice people took the liberty to borrow the starter from the jeep.. guess what? we got home with no prolems.. just a little push every time we needed to start it.. how do you do that in a auto? it's possible but how are you going to push the truck to what? 50MPH? don't think so. I don't know.. but I do know what my own eyes see . ohh and I'm not lecturing you or any other here, i'm not competing and don't want to either.. is just a fact that I know is true maybe your mexican relatives could tell you why.. hehehehehe... ohh and one more thing.. read my 1st post.. I say both same shit as far a dico goes.. and why are 5speed discos rare? well because the normal JOE is a lazy bastard.. now you want to go and discuss marketing?.. why is diesel not available? because the normal JANE is going to put regular gas into it? maybe? because of oil prices are cheaper in comparisson with other countries? don't know.. because a gallon of gas is 4 times cheaper in VZLA.... and they have diesels but yet more gas engines than diesels... maybe because newer discos and almost all new vehicles are not design towards the 4x4 lover.. the one that from time to time use them... ?why did they take CDL out ? ins't it because the normal lazy JOE don't even know what that does? so ins't more what marketing do here to the buyers than what is my experience or who pisses more? please.... let this die... or I will lecture you in marketing! a la mexicana! LOL... ;-) Simon   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 11:42 am:    You drove the Disco in all of those places ??? damn.... We need some of those pics for your gallery.... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 11:44 am:    And what does the Rubicon have to do with anything ? Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 11:47 am:    come on.. kyla don't play stupid it doesn't go with your "image"... again you going that route... humm.. isntead of mechanic you should be running for a political position there in DC.. LOL.. Simon.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 11:51 am:    and what "my gallery" of a recent 96 disco have to do with it? i'll give you something "again" to do with it. where have you been outside of USA,Canada in order to know what's out there? and why more 5 speeds than auto?   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 11:53 am:    Well , Simone , you talking about sticks and such I havnt heard one single decent arguemnt from you aside from what you say everyone else is doing. There are some very good arguments in favor of a manual but I have yet to hear them from you. And what exactly is the "Lazy" thing ? I dont get it... Kyle   muskyman Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 11:58 am:    go ahead Simone lecture away I will print it out and wipe my ass with it. big deal so the rest of the world gets oil burners and 5 speed its not our fault or could we do anything about it. Land Rover decided to go up market in the USA to sell vehicles not convert people into offroaders if you want to sell to the masses here you need to sell very middle of the road product then comes our aftermarket, we have every part needed at our finger tips. we have associations such as SEMA that are helping build a strong aftermarket that has safe well designed product that can increase the usefullness of vehicles. so you can knock our country all you like and call us lazy, the bottom line is if it wasent for the fact that we shared a boarder some other third world nation would come kick the fucking shit outa mexico and take what little resources you guys have. then all our big companys would pull up there stakes and move back to the USA leaving mexico back in the dark ages. my first little face is for you Simone   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 12:14 pm:    lol... damn.. there it goes the discussion to personal insult.. muskyman... not you.. I don't think you would be a normal joe if you actually come here and read this... all those are the reasons why I think 5 speeds are out of USA too and that is the discussion here no? don't bull shit me about your stupid patriotism and the second part of it is why innocent americans are feeling real world terrorism....talking about idiots.. you don't know me, all your big companies are also mine beside the mexicancrap I'm an american too and my father who served in the us army when shit wasn't all easy and no buttons were used to fight and he did.. you little hand back to you pussyman Simon.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 12:15 pm:    and well kylita... all I wrote is as far as my little knowledge goes for mechanic shit... so that is my only argument... what about my questions about marketing? now your changing again from trying cheap tricks against my persona instead of writing what you know about mechanics....why?... did you really read my first post or the last 5? what are you doing? and why? ohh i know... you go around in circles..and then try to discretit people... i don't think is going too well dude... good arguments that favor manuals? humm see I didn't know you knew that!!! I don't!!! beside I feel better on road because I have more control or feel I do... and the easier it is to start without battery or starter.. so please show us the light! LOL... Simon.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 12:25 pm:    Oh my , Simon I am not going to School you on the shit you already tried to appear to know... ANd I dont think I was using any tricks at all. You either know something or not , nothing tricky about that... Some people tend to think that living through others is truley knowing... SOme dont... I was just trying to figure out which you were.... Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 12:29 pm:    soory kyle I didn't get to the last thing in your post ..the lazy thing.. ok... the lazy thing comes from when I went to ft lauderdale land rover dealer and asked a very "american" looking dude why 5 speeds are not longer available and he said people that buy this trucks are not into driving an expensive manual truck in a traffic jam and that thesales ae driven by the demand... so that's why less and less manuals were available.. could be all shark talk anyways..but I belived him! by the way I've driven some toyotas, jeeps and izuzus in manual gears and I tell you my disco is smoother in traffic.. I don't know maybe it's just that it is second nature to me... Simon.   muskyman Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 12:32 pm:    "muskyman... not you.. I don't think you would be a normal joe if you actually come here and read this..." sorry dont understand this? "don't bull shit me about your stupid patriotism and the second part of it is why innocent americans are feeling real world terrorism....talking about idiots.." no bullshit here you call me and my country lazy I say screw you no matter where you are from. there are no innocent Americans we are all targets and the world is gonna learne again as it did in WWII that we will finnish the fight no matter how far we need to go. in the emortal words of Charlie Danials "just go ahead and lay your hands on one Pittsburgh steelers fan" "stupid patriotism " this two word phraze you used sums you up pretty good, where do you want to be when the chips fall? did your father fight to allow you to live to utter such total shit? show me once in the last hundred years where our country took land and resources after a war? I know the thread is about stick vers auto and I'll stop now but what crap you are spewing I wonder if you would call names if you bumped into "Kylita" out on a trail somewhere?   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 12:36 pm:    LOL so now you know who I am? LOL.... good to know! now you telling me that those were not the usual little tricks? humm... hard to belive.. so by living and seeing personally what I did is living by others? ohh because the rubbicon? ahh yes I saw what others did to compare to what I've seen remember I said not as "hard as the rubbicon"... now what was your point again? discredit me? or teaching something here to me and the ones that don't know? LOL Simon.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 12:42 pm:    muskypussy if your post is as stupid as you are then I preffer not to bump into your stupid ass than to bump with kylita... I know kylita personally too and yes I already bumped with him before and I say to his face to what I say to him here this little mexican thinks he is nukcle head!! LOL... Simon   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 12:48 pm:    sorry I meant "if you are as stupid as your post" hehehe sorry! I called you and your all americans LAZY please! put me in the terrorist list! idiot! Simon el terrorista...   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 12:50 pm:    Again , what does the Rubicon have to do with anything ???? Did someone mention it somewhere that I didnt see ?? You ever think that most Third world countries have Manuals is BECAUSE they are third world countries and the manuals are cheaper... ?? And all you seem to speak of is being able to push start ? Perhaps because in that third world country they cant afford to get a good battery or starter ?? And again , is it considered "Tricky" for me to have you back up your statements ???? Maybe its losing something in the translation... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:01 pm:    And no Simone , you wouldnt say too much to my face. Dont get carried away trying to act Macho now..... I think maybe you feeling a little cornered because you have been called out on te subject matter at hand ? Like a pop quiz at School you werent prepared for ? Kyle   muskyman Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:06 pm:    back to the subject BMW has stated that they change vehicles to suit the market for that reason they sell there cars in a reduced state of tune in the USA because people here have a hard time putting in premium fuel instead of the cheap stuff. they also have sold almost all manual/stick cars in all other markets because ATF fluid is not on every shelf like it is here in the USA. if you are gonna drive a rover across the globe having all the gear boxes take the same fluid is a very good idea. also you can carry a new friction disc for a stick and if it goes bad you can change it with a very short list of tools on site. A auto box is not so lucky trying to service one in anything less then a very clean environment can be a real chore. I would still prefer a stick over a auto any day off road and provided it has the proper gears to match it the offroad truck is much more capable with the stick. IMHO   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:14 pm:    Bingo , and from that Simone you can tell Musky has actually been into situations with the stick. if the gears aint right its as useless as tits on a Boar... With the right gear set its pretty damn nice... Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:26 pm:    LOL now have you been in 3rd world countries? to say 5 speedos are cheaper? and who said "just" 3rd world countries? not working... macho? it's not macho why I could say that to your face and you know it.. i think you are playing here the macho thing instead of me... LOL.. and maybe it is true and maybe sometihng is getting lost in the translation... but I think I backed my observations more than I could! hey ESL clases goes to a limit! LOL... Simon   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:29 pm:    pop quiz? no kidding? i didn't know? here the only one saying why I think 5 speeds are used more in real life crap than autos is me... you just keep playing some sort of yoda crap that is getting old... lol... this is FUN! Simon   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:29 pm:    Um yeah , ok Simone,,,,what a trip.... And yeah , they are cheaper , and better on gas.... (Cheaper) Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:34 pm:    humm... muchky.."for that reason they sell there cars in a reduced state of tune in the USA because people here have a hard time putting in premium fuel instead of the cheap stuff. " maybe it is tru the translation thing.. didn't I say that before ???? and the rest of your humble opinion is in other words what I have been saying... maybe not? humm i think so! and all the terrorist plot went where? damn how complicated things get.. for nothing... LOL Simon   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:39 pm:    ohh sorry please forgive me LOL I thought you said cheaper to buy.. now Iget it who gives a crap if they are better on gas when a gallon of GASOLINE is $0.20 in Vzla? and less for diesel? a bottle of cocacola is more expensive.. but so it's here.. please errase that! LOL Simon.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:39 pm:    Yeah , you think its because of laziness and push starting.... Brilliant !!! Kyle   Gil Stevens (Gil) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:43 pm:    just 2 cents here, as this entertaining conversation has moved on to gears, I think that is one of the biggest differences between the stick and auto discos. I dont know what the actual differnces are, as im not that mechanically inclined, but in the driver seat there is no way that you can miss the difference. On road with the manual the Disco is downright quick. (well , for a 5000 lbs rig..its still not "quick") In low range there is no comparison. I just like stick becuase its more fun.. thats all. ok.. now back to the broken english   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:48 pm:    and why? ohh chosen one... why? havent said a word about why just one little thing "bingo" people don't want to drive expensive trucks with manual gears period (lazy part)and that mandates the market.. can't blame them either... they are not interested in what I or any of you like in a truck if not LRNA would have brought the diesel a long time ago.. there is nothing brilliant about it and never claimed it was brilliant... just fact.   pk Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:49 pm:    A 5 speed Disco is clearly better with engine braking. It is a little more powerful on the road and able to cope with bigger tires and stock gears better. That is about where the 5 speed advantages end. -The Auto is MUCH more durable. It will out last the R380 many times over. The ZF is almost perpetual unless it get water inside its guts. In contrast, I can scarcely think of an R380 that has not failed. Mine has. Simon's has. When my 380 self-destructed, I thought seriously of converting to an auto. It would have been the same cost for a good used ZF as a new R380 and I know the used ZF would outlast the new 380. I chose to stay with the stick because I like driving stick. At that time I also owned a disco with and auto and I found it boring to drive on the road. I am stuck in a stick shift rut. That does not mean I have not jonesed for an auto while off road (especially while Kyle has his god damn video camera on me). -The ZF is better at crawling and not stalling; there are just no 2 ways about it. -The torque converter is real useful to build engine rpm and torque without picking up wheel speed. Many times (especially lately) I have had to slip the clutch to accomplish this. It does not work as well and the burning smell is annoying -As the wheeling becomes more and more challenging... the 5 speed becomes more and more difficult to use. Those advanced situations is where the auto really shines, from what I have seen. Some Terra-low gears in the transfer case might make the 5 speed easy in advanced situations but how practical is that conversion??? I won't change to an auto because I enjoy the 5 speed so much. It is my preference especially on the road and it can do the job off road when needed... sometimes it just ain't very elegant. But to try and dis the auto is foolish. It is just plain better in almost all situations. I have never driven an auto off road, but from what I have seen, it makes the drivers day a lot easier. So now that you have all hurled insults at each other, can we agree that this is an issue of driving preference and does not actually reflect the sexual prowess of the driver nor his penis size? If it is necessary to admit that the auto box is generally superior off road, I think I have done that. To some that might hurt but I will tell you now... the truth always hurts. pk   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:51 pm:    gil one more thing all this practicing is something I appreciate! LOL hopefully I'm getting better! HAHAHA... thanks discoweb!!!! Simon.   muskyman Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:59 pm:    simone quick your losing change the subject again call me what you want, you will not change my mindset. I come here to read answer and chat, not fight you insult me my country and all the other people on this board with your antics and think its cool? well cool have fun its your BB too as far as being mr macho I am always amazed at how big and bold people are in cyberspace? tough on the internet=small minded in the real world   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 02:08 pm:    Pk I completely understand your post and thank you. to tell you the truth my box failed when I had a serious crash that took 5 months and $19,000.00 to fix... you can tell me what that hell happened to it because you have it please OPEN the damn thing would you? it's been what? 3 years? hehehe now my 2 or 3 year old box has no complains yet.. and I had to change the slave cylinder of the other disco I bought but now is perfect! as far as off road goes I understand the auto to be easier in a lot of 4x4 situations but that wasn't the discussion it just went that way..and then some missdirected patriotism got in the way... the discussion is why they aren't available any anymore... plus the fact that more 5speeds are used dayly in serious terrain by not so "seasonal off roaders" but by people that live their entire lifes there still a hard fact, and it is a shame that my preffered truck is not found new anymore.. I have a friend that moved to miami from vzla and I showed him the disco and loved it but he is always telling me how nice it would be if they just had them in manual gears.. it's just different markets... in vzla when we order a popsoda the first word that comes out of our mouth is "pepsi" and belive me "COCA" is a lot easier to pronounce!!! LOL SImon.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 02:15 pm:    Simone , get a translator and try again..... You actually insult your self in some posts..... "maybe it is true and maybe sometihng is getting lost in the translation... but I think I backed my observations more than I could!" Yeah , you backed them obviously more then you could. And Cheaper is cheaper, they are cheaper to build and therefore the profit margin is greater on them in the third world countries... They are cheaper to run and maintain. I dont know how else to say it beside they are cheaper , they are cheaper to fit the market... Why have a stick in the US when you can have an auto and be better off ? Does that make any freakin sense ? OH , aside from it not being as Macho.... Kyle   Gil Stevens (Gil) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 02:15 pm:    obviously 5- speed is better.. i mean look at all the Camel Discos.. they are all 5-speeds!! and the Camel is the epiotomy of off roading.. isnt it??   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 02:15 pm:    muskypussy i'm the same here and out in the personal world... I "insulted" the americans by called them lazy? and that's why you felt patriot and insulted me and all the 3rd world countries? shiz... dude you are in fact stupid. your mindset is very little and narrow.... and not changing anything just commenting on gil's post. you know a friendly post? Simon.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 02:19 pm:    PK , you were getting a bit too cocky with all that TT and stick shift talk... Oh we got lotsa clips.... Simone ? You got some clips right ? Kyle   pk Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 02:21 pm:    Do you think a ZF would have failed in such a crash? I wonder... You know I love the 5 speed but it is like Kyle driving on 60 psi tires. He does not argue that 60 psi tires have the same good traction. He just argues that he likes them for other reasons. pk   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 02:25 pm:    Simone , you should probably watch your mouth... NO , you arent , I am sensing some Monitor muscles and monitor Macho... Kyle   pk Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 02:32 pm:    Well Kyle, As you pointed out while still on the road.... I took a preemptive strike at the BBS to stir up some shit before you got home and monopolized the threads. There is no doubt that the 5 speed made more work for me and the TTs made more tire spinning for me. Those are facts. It is amazing that I keep getting through the trails and bearing up under the strain. Especially the strain of the damn video camera! Fuck! pk   muskyman Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 02:53 pm:    "muskypussy i'm the same here and out in the personal world..." really? bet your all humble and "hey man I was just messing with ya" kinda guy if we ever met. pk, you need lower gears! clutches are not meant to be slipped. I believe one reason why the r380 have repair issues is because many people dont know how to drive them correctly. when you slip a clutch you then flex the input shaft when you fully engage the clutch at a higher torque load then it was intended for, that then changes the mesh of the gears causing premature failure. heavy equipment such as loaders/garbage trucks/dump trucks ...ect have all gone to Allisone automatics just for this reason. a clutch should be used as a on/off switch not as a slipping devise. if you have the right gears in a truck for the amount of load you are trying to move there will be no chance of bogging down.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:08 pm:    PK , perhaps Simon forgets that I have a clip of him lurching and slipping on your manual at HITR and you giving him shit for it while he was still in the act ??? I will try to convert that this evening for this thread... Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:13 pm:    so kylita.. by your statement then why not switch to electric cars or hibrids? hey it's cheaper to run more profit to fix and maybe even sell? it fits our market!LOL well I give myself permission to insult myself! LOL and why be better of? didn't you say that in some cases sticks are better? damn man you are going in circles.... please read my first post.. to me is equal, sometimes one is better than the other.. so what? this all started because I said "lazy" damn maybe the translation got something out of it... I explained why the market preffers autos than manuals... what a hard head i'm telling you... and if cheaper is all you can say without first hand experience in those countries i'm telling you about, why keep posting? what you want? didn't you asked me all the pop quiz crap and now the big answer is "cheap" damn that's brilliant... mister 3rd world expert Hah! try to run that by a 3rd world BB... now that's funny too! Simon.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:18 pm:    ahh kilita.. I also have that clip what's got to do with all this? yes I did that little obstacle in a truck witha muuuuch softer clutch then mine.. so what? I also havea clip when you chickened out and didn't go all the way because you felt the hemorroids going out.. i think you are taking this elsewhere don't you? 80) Simon   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:21 pm:    "mister 3rd world expert Hah! try to run that by a 3rd world BB... now that's funny too" I think they would do the same shit , it would be for every reason aside from being a poor market. Oh , and the push starting.... Yeah , almost forgot about that... Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:25 pm:    humm... kyle do what you have to... not watching any shit different from any other.. i'm appliyng what you preach every day.. I have first hand experience of what I'm saying couldbe wrong could be right but it is what I belive.. now why don't you go back to all those posts and actually answer something? Simon.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:30 pm:    push start what's wrong with that? once I left my truck at the airport for a weekend with my lights on i was in a rush to catch a flight.. came back battery was dead.. do you think I waited for the good samaritan to appear? I pushed it and forgot about it got home safe and happy! simon.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:31 pm:    Simone , I had things to say. It just wasnt anything you wanted to hear. Part of that was that you have no freaking idea what you are saying if you think a manual is "equal". The other one was that Americans arent "Lazy" the countries you are talking about are just poor.. Its also very hard to believe you are so seasoned and experienced off road with a manual as I have seen you drive one.... Lets not forget that ... SOoooooooo , aside from push starting , what else do YOU really know about the topic ??? Kyle   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:38 pm:    "once I left my truck at the airport for a weekend with my lights on i was in a rush to catch a flight.. came back battery was dead.. do you think I waited for the good samaritan to appear? I pushed it and forgot about it got home safe and happy! " Simone , what truck are we talking about ? Kyle   Milan Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:45 pm:    Well, I promised myself I would not get in on this but I can't stay away from a good (even if pointless - you know it will never be resolved) discussion. I prefer manual. I like to drive. I like to feel the direct connection between engine and tires. I like to decide what gear the truck is in. I like using as few types of oil/fluids in the truck as possible (preferably). I like not having to worry about heat and hoses loosing fluid. I like mechanical linkages more than cables or wires. I like to be able to start without a battery or starter. People call the bump-start argument BS and stupid, yet it works for me and I did use it in the past and I will use it again. I hope not to use it but when it's all I have and it makes the truck go again, I feel warm and fuzzy. BS or not. I like engine braking. I don't mind stalling and restarting. I don't mind having to change the clutch at some point. I believe in having the right gearing, manual transmission or not. Having the right gearing makes the transmission feel better, manual or not. I had driven both standards and automatic off-road. I hated the auto for hill climbs. I hated it in mud and snow. I hated it on descends. I liked it for "bombing" down the trail. I liked that it was sealed to not let water in through bell housing. I know I'd have to practice more for the auto to be a better climber but I still prefer stick. I was told auto was easier for climbing, mudding and snow driving. I found it harder to feel for traction when climbing, mudding and snow driving. I thought it was more difficult. I thought manual was easier. I think easier is better. That's what everybody says. What is easier? I think I'm lazy because I like easy things. Others think you have to shift manual too much when off road. They prefer autos because they're lazy. I don't shift much (when the gearing is right). I prefer the stick because I'm lazy. Who is lazier? I know a few accomplished wheelers and rock-crawlers who prefer auto. They claim it is better in many or some situations. I believe them. Better for them. Probably better for the truck. Not me. If something brakes on my truck, it's my fault not the transmission's. They say they would have to concentrate on too many things going on at the same time. They're lazy. Sometimes there are too many things going on at the same time. When it's on a dangerous obstacle, I'd rather be lazy and maybe the auto would be better even for me. But then again, I don't find the manual that much worse. I don't rock-crawl. I think that may be the difference. I have the auto because it's more widespread and because I asked around and was told and have read that it is stronger. Plus the one manual they had, had 4x the mileage my truck has. Plus my wife hates standards. I don't think she's a good driver. I don't think I'm best but I think I'm pretty good. I think most drivers in North America are more car consumers than drivers. I do think it has to do with laziness. Laziness to learn to drive standard. Laziness to focus more on driving rather than eating, phoning, applying make up, etc. I'm not insulting US or any other country. I like US and many other countries. I don't think I'm macho. I think my ESL is pretty good. I think this is off topic. I think the rest of the world has more drivers (people who like to drive for the sake of driving, "controlling" the car). I think manual gives me more control. I think I can control few things. I know many times I think I have control but I don't. Neither do you. Manual or not. I think NA and this board (and other enthusiast forums) has more drivers who like automatics. I think there are manual drivers who are car consumers. I like the automatic sometimes. I prefer the manual. I thought I had more to say but I can't think of what it was. I thought I was going to organize my thoughts but then I thought this would work also. I think I think too much yet I'm not a thinker. Think what you will of this but I think it is fun.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:48 pm:    you had...good.. what did it do for the post? shit.. you go back and forward with the thing one is better the other one is better then I don't know shit.. good.. people are learning a lot from that! you say americans aren't lazy? ok fine..so what? do that says anything? I said americans are lazy and that's why the market drops the manuals off the trucks ,you say is not so what's so bad about it? why getting all wroked up about that? no free speach no mo? then block me and that's that... no mo mexican.. so what? do that makes you more? wao you da man! then what? notice of blocking me? already did?... well you have never seen me in my disco off road so what? you have no idea if i'm good or not and what does that applies to this original post? again what else the old personal attack? yes of course... instead of what I really know about the subject that clearly for your high standards are nothing then say sometihng constructive.... is this thread about me? or maybe because you can't take heat .... i never said anything bad about you and then you started once again your all fassion yoda approach that is clearly old and boring... say something worth reading.... if I learn I am the first whos going to say thanks! like I did with pk... Simon   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:49 pm:    Simone??? YOu seeing that your bullshit push start story doesnt work out so well ???? Or do you mexicans not need voltage for ignition and pump and such? Kyle   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:57 pm:    Simone , you apear to be the only one so worked up that your broken english is now even more broken. I have simply asked you to qualify your remarks... Perhaps where you come from that is not so popular ? Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:01 pm:    see milan that's contructive and well taken there is nothing (I hope) to flame about ... but now this thread aint no more for auto or manual it's a shame but funny! so what do we know about autos and manuals answer: -Simon is a terrorist -3rd world contries are full of 3rd world people..duh -simon is a lausy driver.. -simon don't know shit... -simon might not be posting for too long cause the arm of the all mighty wants to unleash the wrath....whatever.. I'll survive.. and that some people like manual some auto both are equal yes kyle equal even though you don't like it up to right now i still think so and i still think auto are more available because in general people don;twant to deal with shifting gearsintraffic that to me equals to lazyness.. Simon   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:05 pm:    hehe you should know if it's popular or not for that you have first hand experience... nothing to get worked up until your eeevil arm threaten with eternal doom (blocking) 80) so now again what did that teach me? ahh yes I have to work on my english... thanks I didn't notice! LOL.. I was trying to keep up...   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:07 pm:    "simon might not be posting for too long cause the arm of the all mighty wants to unleash the wrath....whatever.. I'll survive.. Simon , you stupid sonof a bitch , do you see where anyone here mentioned that but you ? God damn... And lets hear the push start magic.... Which truck was it simone ?? Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:13 pm:    voltage or not my bullshit story aint bullshit..is the truth... you like it to be bs but aint so, is all this just because I forgot to write IMHO? LOL Simon.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:18 pm:    ok Simone , you are very special. A vehicle needs Fuel , air and spark to run. Voltage supplies two of those and if what you say is accurate you had neither... It aint an opinion , its an impossibility. But you ??? YOU are special,,,yeah. Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:21 pm:    humm... so who is worked up? did I call you that? this is your post: "Simone , you should probably watch your mouth... NO , you arent , I am sensing some Monitor muscles and monitor Macho... " could be translation? Simon.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:24 pm:    Um , no , you started calling a guy that doesnt know you (Musky) some names... That guy might wanna beat your little ass , it happens.... Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:25 pm:    so you are telling me that a disco cannot be pushed with a dead battery and started? are you out of your fucking mind? I TELL YOU I DID IT! with my disco... and so we did with the old CJ... with no starter... simon.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:29 pm:    Um Simone , its basic mechanics..... Perhaps the CJ but you are just talking shit about the Disco. If you left the lights on that long you wouldnt have power to run the pump in the tank , if you dont run that you are getting nothing. Try some other bullshit... Kyle   simon Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:34 pm:    so? little names? so now your his or my mother? so let's see if he wants to beat my little ass what's the problem? you said something that clearly says blocking.. so? did that deserved a "son of a bitch"? shit dude.. the more posts the harder to understand you.. by the way I have 2 legs 2 arms 2 hands 1 cellular and a very fast finger to call 911 if not reception or no time left to an inminent ass kicking action i assure you I wont need help. that as macho as i go... LOL... simon.   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:41 pm:    lol , yes Simone , the classic "I cant understand" bullshit coming from a MExicannnnnn. I love it. Now , you want something that is not understandable ? Why someone would lie about push starting their Disco.... Hows that ? Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:44 pm:    "I like to feel the direct connection between engine and tires. I like to decide what gear the truck is in." hehe reminds me of that rental car commercial where the customers are sent out of the rental office spread eagled and holding onto 4 tires at their hands & feet. When I'm getting busy (with my 96 automatic) I'm in 4-low, locked center diff, with the auto box in 1st. Only difference is I push a button (on the auto shift stick) & move the stick down to 1, instead of pushing clutch and moving manual stick through the gate. Same goes for descents - I choose 1, or 2...3....4. I don't think you really feel much more connected to the engine & tires than I do. But don't get me wrong Milan, I do understand what you mean since you take a more active role in manually jumping up from 1 to 5, whereas the auto follows pre-set (but adjustable) shifts. Now actual gearing? That's a different story that'll be remedied by pitching the 3:54's and going down to 4:10.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:45 pm:    ahhhh now I get it.. you read my post long time ago you didn't say anything but went in circles... so at the end you say it is impossible! and that's it? you know me for some time now, I tell you I left my disco, found it with a dead battery it would not turn to shit, pushed it from the parking lot and started and you don't belive me? well.. i did it... maybe I need to show you.... to be continue... Simon   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:50 pm:    Simone , it wont. If it doesnt have any voltage it WILL NOT START!!! damn...Maybe just dead enough not to crank. But no god damn way are you leaving the lights on for a week end and push starting it. There would NOT BE ENOUGH VOLTAGE FOR THE PUMP TO RUN..... Why is that so freaking hard to understand ? Get another bullshit line that one aint working. Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:01 pm:    read well once again... "once I left my truck at the airport for a weekend with my lights on i was in a rush to catch a flight.. came back battery was dead.. do you think I waited for the good samaritan to appear? I pushed it and forgot about it got home safe and happy! " I'm telling you is nothing to understand is what HAPPENED.. simon   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:02 pm:    Jesus , conversation over. Cannot keep going with that much stupidity, Yes Simone , you are very special... Kyle   Milan Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:04 pm:    Simon, No no flames needed or intended. Blue, I think I know how to drive the auto but maybe I don't (remember, I'm the one foot on gas, the other on brake kinda guy - especially off-road). I too shift the auto manually. That does not hide the fact that even in 1, the engine braking is insufficient on many a hill. Low gears help combat this a bit but how low can one go without hurting on-road performance? In any gear but 1 the box may shift to the next lower or upper gear when I don't want it to. It just won't select any higher gear than what it's set to. I don't really want to fiddle with presets for the shift points, though that might make some autos more appealing to me once setup just the way I like it. I still hate the lack of feel in the driveline. In snow or mud I found it deceiving - hard to sometimes tell if I was loosing traction of if the box was slipping. I'm not saying it was difficult, as I think I can tell what the car is doing but it still fooled me on many occasions. Maybe this is where more driving with auto/more practice comes in.   JB Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:15 pm:    Dude...Kyle... - I heard you had the hemorroids and that sounds aweful..I have never had them or owned a manual and driven with them so I can not publicly make any claims about how bad they are or how bad they are while driving a manual but DUDE - hope you and the old hershey squirter get better quick...working that clutch has got to make them sing huh ? Where are those video clips of you driving with 'roids and Simone whining about the hard clutch... Give us video ..... then we'll see who is whining about what ;)   Kyle Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:18 pm:    Oh here they come,,,,lol The Rocket scientists have been unleashed... kyle   JB Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:58 pm:    Since it was all heading towards the toilet anyway.. flush it, strike a match and be done.   pk Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 06:04 pm:    musky, You right man, I need lower gears. I have stock 3.54 gears with 32" tires. That makes the lowest gear pretty tall on the tough parts of the trail. And no torque converter to wind up the slack... Poor me... You see! I was struggling under adverse conditions! You auto people just don't understand the hardship. pk   muskyman Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 07:08 pm:    pk lol....I'm a stick man myself I am not a big fan of having a motor stall on a up or downhill and getting the big glide. I have a 6:78 to 1 first gear and everyone that wants to crawl should figure what they need to do to get one also I like the way you chimed in with what you learned on your trip I appreciate when someone makes up there mind what they like and what they dont. although Simon thinks I'm a pussy for being a Patriot I just feel I'm a guy that has made alot of opinions over the years and like to express them. as I said in a thread over on EE back a year ago I think the whole stick vs auto debate in a disco dosent make as much sence as a thread about what we can do to make a better transfercase setup for a disco. if there was a doubler that would make a compound low gear for a disco then auto or stick would have the low gears it needs to crawl along and give the performance in tough terain that the articulation it has will allow it to take on.   Rick Lindgren (Slacker) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 07:47 pm:    Milan, in the DII you can push the "manual" button for your auto-transmission. It tells the auto transmission to stay in whatever gear you have selected at the time as long as you are in low range. So it's a manual auto. My problem isn't that I'm lazy, I'm just multi-tasking. If I'm sipping my Starbucks, eating a burger, talking on the cell phone, and steering with my left knee, it's up to my right foot to drive the car entirely until I finish. Since I haven't trained my foot to shift I had to get an auto. Same scenario off-road but it's the GPS instead of a cell phone. Rick   Milan Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 08:49 pm:    Rick, That's good about the DII box, but then we have that electronic crap I talked about. Anyway, I'm not really knocking the auto. Or am I? I still believe it's a preference thing. I'll tell you one thing though, Detroit locker is a totally different animal with an auto than with a manual. In a manual I hate it. With an auto it's almost transparent. So much so, that I'm thinking of getting one. Now if I could only find another contract. Since last year's second quarter things have been on and off. And I thought computers had future.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 09:40 am:    huh? no kyle it aint over, you can talk all you want and discredit me all you want but what I "talked" wasn't a lie you clearly said it "Maybe just dead enough not to crank" then what? it clearly didn't have juice to turn the engine but with my push did the rest.... that makes me a liar or that makes me a guy that might not have all the mechanical knowledge but does know when to say a fact? let me teach you something you clearly don't know shit about ... instead of going in circles and make your old corral to then strike with what you know, did not make it this time... clearly I did not dreamed what happened.. clearly the battery had some juice enough for me to do the rest by pushing it but to me was dead clearly you in your truck with the same battery would have needed a jump start... so what? when you had the chance with a simple explanation of how what I did worked and why with a real no voltage "dead" battery there is no way the disco can start post I would have said a big "THANK YOU" like I said to milan and Pk and that kyle, means you don't know shit about been humble! you still go around in the other points that I made, you don't have a clue because you have never been there... it is clear that I don't know all the details of why a stick is better in "some situations" but my observations are enough for me, it is clear if you read well all my posts you can see that what I say is what I know is true. there... the stupid is when you see yourself in the mirror.. JB even kyle said he chickened out there so i posted an unrelated point to answer to his stupid post.. and let me tell you it is very funny! and comes from my own camera while pk was filming that was the first obstacle I did in his disco and after that everything was smooth, I don't have any problem to show it to anybody a lot of people that I don't even know have it it's all ok but what does that relates to my post? nothing... Simon.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 10:44 am:    and please ..... to make it clear again.. i'm not calling "lazy" to any of the people that come here or take their turck off road. is the 99% of the lazy people that don't want to shift... is that so hard to understand? i have never seen so many idiotic posts to bash a person and completely go off topic... ohh wait it happened before and it will happen again! never mind!I'll survive!... LOL Simon.   Garth Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 11:24 am:    Coming from a decidely 2nd world country, I think most of the posts have missed an important fact in this thread, and that is that drivers in other coutries have a choice what Discoveries they drive. In Australia, the cost of a base V8 manual is about AUD$2000 less than a TD5 manual. With the better fuel consumption of the TD5 I've gained this back in 2 years driving. To choose a TD5 was purely an economic decision. Auto transmissions add about another 5% to the purchase price; the TD5/auto transmission is a sweet powertrain, but not that substantially better that it was worth the money in my view. But then I've only owned one auto in my life (a Disco I TDi...which my wife hated). The reason that there are manuals (or diesels) in this country has nothing to do with the relative skills of our mechanics or the nature of our driving; rather that there is a large enough market for them to warrant LRA importing them, and that gives us the choice to buy what we consider appropriate (or can afford)   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 11:51 am:    hehehh - you know, it's kind of funny how an intelligent post like that one sticks out like a sore thumb in this thread..   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 11:59 am:    yes it does.... "The reason that there are manuals (or diesels) in this country has nothing to do with the relative skills of our mechanics or the nature of our driving; rather that there is a large enough market for them to warrant LRA importing them" now isn't that what happens in USA? we don't have a big enough market to have the choice? people here don't like sticks and that's why they don't have them, same with diesels, same with d90s 110s 130s ... and the easiest is to beat the mexican for saying americans are lazy? shish... get a fucking life people! LOL SImon.   Andrew Clarke (Aclarke) Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 04:04 pm:    Well to get back to the original question in the thread... Yes manuals in 1997 were very rare. I was talking to somebody last week who has one, and I really wish I could remember the number imported that he told me. It was a "very small" number anyways. It made me understand how I had such a hard time finding a '97 with a 5spd. I ended up getting a 1996 which works just fine for me ;-)   pk Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 04:57 pm:    Milan, You are right about the Detroit in a manual rig. I had one and it was unmanagable. I swapped it for the rear TT that kyle dislikes so much. For me it was a great solution since it is better than an open diff for sure. pk   pk Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 05:00 pm:    Musky, You are Ed Zachary correct man. I can see you have done this before. hehehehe pk   Milan Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 06:32 pm:    pk, I have/had dual TT's in my TJ. I loved them. But I always wondered whether I should have gone the DL route. Then I finally got to drive 3 rigs with them (2 with sticks one with auto, all DL SoftLocker). While the D60 DL actually behaved better than the D44 one, the auto sure won by a long shot. I thought I wore out my TT and I took it out and replaced it with PowerLok lsd. Different animal and it's rebuildable. Detroit claims the TT is not because they are assembled and then trued on a lathe but it's just like any 2 piece carrier. If you put it together the same way, it should be no problem, so why don;t they sell internal parts for it. Now I have a spare TT sitting in my garage. Hehehe. Now if only tractech would make the Electrac for the Rovers, eh? But were straying from the topic. I totally belive in correct gearing regardless of ••••••, I believe in granny low first, relatively low t-case gears and relatively low axle gears. Did I mention I like low gears?   Manual Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 06:23 am:    5 speed Manual = more driver control auto= easier to drive. Manual= pain in ass when in rush hour stop /start traffic. Auto = something you wouldn't attempt to overhaul yourself. Manual= I'd give attempt my own rebuild. Auto= German for Motorcar Manual= Name of waiter in Fawlty Towers.   R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 11:11 am:    I have been arguing that autos are better than manuals - I like them better anyway. BUT I do know someone who is desperately trying to sell her MANUAL SE7. It's never been off road, I looked at it today and took a few pictures - it's very clean. Even the leather isn't run down yet. The interior trim is not buckling, and the exterior rubber around the rear windows is not cracking! It has 96k on it, and a Sony 10 disc CD. She is asking $11,000 in the Portland Oregon Area if anyone is interested.