747 in Bagram
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RBBailey said:
If this is true than I performed an impossible controlled stall in a J-3. No wing drop, just the nose drop with that funny feeling in your stomach.
Also, AF447 had no wing drop, just fell out of the sky from FL380.
brian4d said:If this is true than I performed an impossible controlled stall in a J-3. No wing drop, just the nose drop with that funny feeling in your stomach.
Also, AF447 had no wing drop, just fell out of the sky from FL380.
Then you did a coordinated stall. Both wings stalled at the same time, you dropped nose first because the CG was still in it's proper place. That's what you are supposed to do, and that is why you are supposed to keep your eye on the turn coordinator, and especially in a Cub you can feel the uncoordinated flight in your back-side.
mgreenspan, sorry I came back so vile... it was late, I've been spending 4 hours a night on correcting papers and I was in a vile mood before I even read the thread.
I don't think I ever said it wasn't caused by the shift in cargo, I just speculated that it certainly looked like badly done performance take-off to departure stall. I also don't think a shifted CG will right itself at the top of the arch in the flight. I never said it didn't shift. And I hadn't heard anything about a report that the pilot stated that he had loose cargo. I only saw the video. If my explanation made it sound like I was discounting a CG shift, it was my fault. I was exploring the possible scenarios based on what I saw in the video and what I've seen in real life.
I saw an MD-80 nose come off the ground at 35 knotts once, it was a plane that I had helped load. We reviewed the manifest and found that the loadmaster had published it with an error, shifting 1000's of lbs into an aft cargo bay that it wasn't supposed to be in. This caused an aborted take-off and a tedious reloading.
I also used to load cargo on 737's and 767's. One cold night I was waiting to get 4000 lbs of frozen salmon out of the back of a 737. While waiting, the forward cargo was emptied out and ice was building up on the airframe. The tail came all the way down the the ground and the wind pivoted the plane 40 degrees! It was even choked, but since there was an inch of ice on the tarmac, it simply skated.
I've also seen a fighter stall and auger in, not due to anything going on with the CG. The after-stall flight was exactly what that 747 did.
I do wonder though, how would the cargo re-establish it's proper position after it has come loose? So I wonder, why was the nose able to come back down into what looked like stall recovery, even wings level? If the elevator authority had been so compromised by the aft CG in the initial climb, how was it regained at the peak of the flight path arch enough for the pilot to direct the nose downward again? Does the 747 have a particular AOA and airspeed where the elevator actually becomes effective again in a post stall condition?
My guess would be no recovery at all. Airliners with wingspans of that nature would show stall characteristics of floating to the ground rather than the nose/wing drop of a much smaller airframe. Don't forget visual perception is most likely much different then what actually happened, largely due to the size of the 74.
If memory serves AF 447 dropped at 11,000FPM. 3 minutes 30 seconds from the beginning of the stall to the end.
If memory serves AF 447 dropped at 11,000FPM. 3 minutes 30 seconds from the beginning of the stall to the end.
Little Background.
My father is a retired Checkairman on the 737-200. He was also Flight Engineer on the Lockheed Electra, 707 Co-Pilot, 727 line Captain (His Favorite). His friend sent the following email.
I have a friend named ### who was a high school buddy and the guy who was directly responsible for getting me into aviation. Billy was a 747 Captain with China Airlines and then a 747 check pilot. I sent a note to him asking his opinion on what happened and this was his reply.
Severe load shift on takeoff... They were carrying vehicles,,,, if the load locks were not in place or broke on rotation ,,the thing would pitch up enormously...at 1200 feet.. No chance... U can see the wings swing right then left before the 90 deg bank.....also look carefully and just before stall u can see a "mist" around the wings, tail and fuselage..that is case by immediate reduction in airflow over the surfaces. This has happened before when working with the military in cargo operations....they are always in a rush to "push" you out... I flew 747-200 cargo during the first gulf war into dahran, and Kuwait,,,, Were always worried about load "cg" and "shifts"...there was a dc-8.. had a container get loose on t/o at Jeddah and almost crashed...it is terrifying to watch that video.....850000 lb airplane with about 310000 lbs of fuel crashing like that.
My father is a retired Checkairman on the 737-200. He was also Flight Engineer on the Lockheed Electra, 707 Co-Pilot, 727 line Captain (His Favorite). His friend sent the following email.
I have a friend named ### who was a high school buddy and the guy who was directly responsible for getting me into aviation. Billy was a 747 Captain with China Airlines and then a 747 check pilot. I sent a note to him asking his opinion on what happened and this was his reply.
Severe load shift on takeoff... They were carrying vehicles,,,, if the load locks were not in place or broke on rotation ,,the thing would pitch up enormously...at 1200 feet.. No chance... U can see the wings swing right then left before the 90 deg bank.....also look carefully and just before stall u can see a "mist" around the wings, tail and fuselage..that is case by immediate reduction in airflow over the surfaces. This has happened before when working with the military in cargo operations....they are always in a rush to "push" you out... I flew 747-200 cargo during the first gulf war into dahran, and Kuwait,,,, Were always worried about load "cg" and "shifts"...there was a dc-8.. had a container get loose on t/o at Jeddah and almost crashed...it is terrifying to watch that video.....850000 lb airplane with about 310000 lbs of fuel crashing like that.
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WELL I don't know anything about this but I do strap down a lot of vehicles on a trailer.
I am thinking that the vehicle(s) that broke free and rolled back would have rolled forward as the aircraft levelled out during its fall? If the CG shift from one was enough to make it go nearly vertical on rotation then surely its enough to make it look a little nose down just before impact. I might also think that one loose MRAP pointed nearly vertical is pretty likely to break the one behind it loose, and two loose ones would make short work of a third, and so on SO if the one in front broke loose first...
I am thinking that the vehicle(s) that broke free and rolled back would have rolled forward as the aircraft levelled out during its fall? If the CG shift from one was enough to make it go nearly vertical on rotation then surely its enough to make it look a little nose down just before impact. I might also think that one loose MRAP pointed nearly vertical is pretty likely to break the one behind it loose, and two loose ones would make short work of a third, and so on SO if the one in front broke loose first...
crown14 said:WELL I don't know anything about this but I do strap down a lot of vehicles on a trailer.
I am thinking that the vehicle(s) that broke free and rolled back would have rolled forward as the aircraft levelled out during its fall? If the CG shift from one was enough to make it go nearly vertical on rotation then surely its enough to make it look a little nose down just before impact. I might also think that one loose MRAP pointed nearly vertical is pretty likely to break the one behind it loose, and two loose ones would make short work of a third, and so on SO if the one in front broke loose first...
At 60 tons apiece I wouldn't doubt it. One then two break loose your just multiplying the weight. I wonder what the tie straps, chains are rated at...
Are you saying this thread took off ok, then crashed before actually going anywhere?
Hey, at least the plane wasn't hijacked
Hey, at least the plane wasn't hijacked
knewsom said:
I'd rather get my information about this crash from a few pilots shooting the shit then CNN or god help us MSNBC.
brian4d said:
So would I - but then again when I saw video of the Boston bombing and asked a 6 year veteran and EOD tech what explosive he thought it was, he said ANFO. I guessed black powder in a container. I don't have anywhere near his experience or training, but I know what black powder looks like and what anfo looks like from watching mythbusters an goofing around in college. Reason trumps credentials, and listening to "I know what I'm talking about because..." And "you obviously don't know what you're talking about because you're not..." Is both tiresome and worthless.
knewsom said:
Listening to all sides and forming my own collective opinion isn't exactly worthless. Everyone to their own though.
Not really - unless there was significant enough pitch with little increase in forward moment to allow gravity to take over, in this case the vehicles rolled back, probably smashing some shit, then as the aircraft pitched forward airspeed would increase reducing the effect of making something want to roll forward (think dropping the hill on a coaster).
In the case of the COD earlier referenced, the generator or pump they loaded exceeded gross weight for cargo and the tie-down requirements. On the CAT shot it snapped the chains, flew back and squished the crewchiefs and passenger and lodged there for the brief ride to the drink... that also showed the lack of effectiveness of the elevators in low airspeed situations and how hard it would be to pitch forward in little time/altitude for recovery.
I had some things break loose in the helicopter before entering auto's (6K winch) and it nearly flew out the ramp in the back... forward moment's not all that much while entering or dropping.
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knewsom said:
This has nothing to do with the discussion. You're predictions are so thoughtful. You are tiresome and worthless. You make arguments based on ridiculous hearsay statements and have proved that somehow you're relevant to this thread because you determined what a bomb was made of based on mythbusters and your college experience.
RBBailey. No offense taken and all internet conversation semantics causing the issues here I think. I think the cargo shifting depending on how it was loaded on the plane is reasonable and even it shifting forward again fairly reasonable with everything going on in terms of orientation and maybe some varying G loading.
brian4d said:
They vary but most weak links start at 5000lbs. If they were big military vehicles they were probably center loaded and not under any of the normal side locks on a main deck 747F. This means it was only tiedowns used to secure it to the floor of the plane. If the guy doing weight/balance fucks up the load plan in terms of what tiedowns to use and where or the loadmasters don't follow it, stuff get start rolling very easily.
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