97 disco cranks but will not start

[kcreech]

First let me start with I am not very knowledgeable on Land rover. Long story short, my son has a 95 disco and an 88 Range rover classic. The Classic 3.5 engine is low on compression and he was looking for another engine that he could swap into the classic. He found a 97 disco locally that he purchased because it had relatively good compression. Once it was towed home and I had a chance to look at it, I realized that it was a 4 liter with distributorless ignition. Upon further research it appears that we could in fact use the 4.0 block but we would need to change out the front housings, the CAM and the manifolds to make the swap (any thoughts on this would be appreciated). In the interim, however, we have decided it would be interesting if we could get the engine to run prior to removal just to verify how it runs. With that thought in mind we have been going down the process of trying to get the engine running which is the reason for the post.

First of all we don’t have the original keys or a fob. We don’t have the EKA number for the unit as well. With that knowledge in hand, I have removed tumblers out of the driver’s door lock so that we could use his current rover keys to use the universal 1515 EKA number. That process seems to work as the red light will quit flashing but we are still unable to get the engine to run. So I have a few questions that I need clarified.

• What happens when the engine goes into immobilization? Is the fuel pump supposed to be cut off or is the engine supposed to not crank. I can’t seem to get the correct answer on this in my searches. This unit always cranks no matter what and it seems to always have fuel pressure.
• How does the Alarm system affect the starting/immobilization? There are random times that the Alarm will go off but we have not been able to pin down if this issue is related to the inability to start the engine. Does the red light on the dash indicate alarm or immobilization or both? I ask because there are time we have done the EKA number with the light not flashing but the alarm will still go off.
• Does the immobilization affect spark control and injector control? When cranking, I do not have spark nor do I have the injectors firing. I have used a scope and I am getting Cam and crank signals, but I am not getting any control from the ECU to the coil pack or to the injectors. In my past experience, I would expect that cam and crank would be minimum for getting the spark and fuel but I am thinking there must be something else that I am missing. Any thoughts on that??
• Does the electronic door actuators play into this in any way? At this point, the door actuators don’t automatically actuate when I lock or unlock the driver’s door. Again based on the light I think the EKA functionality is working but I wonder if the fact that door locks are not operating if there is something with that.
• Lastly, I have way more experience with Mercedes immobilizer systems and they had the chip in the key with a coil reader that went over the ignition switch. This unit had the whole ignition switch system removed prior to purchase so I can’t say if there was supposed to a coil reader and my initial inspection of the wiring diagram has come up empty.

 

[p m]

You have quite a few questions in your post.

First, about 4.0. It is a cross-bolted mains block, ostensibly better than 3.5/3.9, but it may be a bit of a challenge to adapt it to the 88. You can convert it to a serpentine-belt-style 3.9, like 95 Classic or 94-95 D1 - you'll need a camshaft, and front timing cover from these vehicles. You'll also have to swap in all serpentine-belt-specific accessories and rewire a bit.
The intake and exhaust manifolds should be the same (with a caveat that I never dealt with a 3.5).
I don't know if it is easily-convertible to V-belt setup - due to the difference between oil pumps.
All in all, I'd think it would be nice to swap in the 4.0 entirely, with all its electronics - GEMS is a very reliable setup, more so than 14CU/14CUX.

Then, on to immobilizer.

One of its functions is to inhibit cranking - but it may or may not do it. Looks like in your case it does not inhibit cranking.
Another is to tell ECU that the vehicle is stolen or not; if the immobilizer sends a message that things aren't right, the ECU will not run until it gets a message that everything is top top.
That message is sent via a black (not 100% sure about it) wire connecting pin 15 of immobilizer with pin 26 of the ECU. I don't know how to disarm it, but my first attempt would be to cut this wire and cycle power on the ECU.
You may also search Discoweb archives on this subject - IIRC, Dan Chapman once posted the trick.

Driver side door lock does have a switch that connects to the immobilizer, and the door lock actuator as well. The key switch (or keyfob) tells the immobilizer to activate the door locks, and the driver door actuator switch tells the immobilizer that things are all right, disarming the alarm.
If some of the POs disconnected the wiring in the doors to hack around the immobilizer, it could be your culprit.

There are no chips in these keys, so you don't have to worry about that.

You really need a Rave PDF with electrical troubleshooting manual; the file should be named something like etlj960x.pdf (this is for a 96).

 

[discostew]

When the engine is immobilized it won’t crank. If you have fuel pressure and no spark or injection pulses I would be looking for battery voltage and Grounds at your injectors.
Look at your ECM closely because those can have a ton of water intrusion issues that shut down cam and crank signals.
I’m pretty sure the cam sensor signal helps make your injectors sequential and if you lose that signal it will run, but injection won’t be optimal. The crank sensor will take it all down. Where are you tapping in when checking the Crank and cam signals? I like to be right at the ECM.

 

[discostew]

Also. I don’t believe the code thing with the door lock cylinder was used in this market. Some guys around here say it is a thing here in the states. But I think anything you achieve by doing that code is really just coincidental.

 

[Flyfish]

One quick thing to check is the engine management fuse in the main fuse block underneath the steering wheel. I forgot which one it is but I think the identification label will show you.

Maybe #3?

 

[p m]

When the engine is immobilized it won’t crank.

I know it is not supposed to, but it cranks on my D1... Always did.

 

[Flyfish]

Also. I don’t believe the code thing with the door lock cylinder was used in this market. Some guys around here say it is a thing here in the states. But I think anything you achieve by doing that code is really just coincidental.

It worked successfully on two different 1998 NAS D1’s for me.

 

[kcreech]

I will do some more searches to see if I can find anything in the Archives. If I didn’t have to deal with the immobilizer it would be much easier to deal with the idea of swapping the complete engine and electronics into the classic.

As for the Rave PDF is that something that is stored on this forum or would I find it elsewhere?

As for the crank sensor, I have replaced it only because I am normally used to seeing both wires produce AC generator signals with mirrored images. In this case I only get a good signal on one wire. That said, however, with the new sensor, I didn’t get a change in the signal. As for where I am tapping in, I am back probing at the ECU for the sensors, and the coil control as well as the Injector control. The coil and injectors are getting their base voltage, but not the control signal. It leads me to believe that the ECU still believes the truck should be immobilized but I don’t know the system enough to say if that is true or not. I would expect that it would be more than creating an open in a wire between the two modules to allow a bypass but I am not certain.

As for the universal EKA number other than the light going out after doing that process, I don’t really have another way to confirm if the process worked or not. I guess I could possibly try to get the true number for the Rover Dealer.

 

[Flyfish]

LR RAVE - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[Flyfish]

The dealer can give you the number.

 

[kcreech]

Thanks for the RAVE info. I do have a quick question, what is the difference between the MFI-V8 and the MFI-T16. the wiring diagram lists both but I have not been able to find where it explains the difference.

 

[discostew]

I

I will do some more searches to see if I can find anything in the Archives. If I didn’t have to deal with the immobilizer it would be much easier to deal with the idea of swapping the complete engine and electronics into the classic.

As for the Rave PDF is that something that is stored on this forum or would I find it elsewhere?

As for the crank sensor, I have replaced it only because I am normally used to seeing both wires produce AC generator signals with mirrored images. In this case I only get a good signal on one wire. That said, however, with the new sensor, I didn’t get a change in the signal. As for where I am tapping in, I am back probing at the ECU for the sensors, and the coil control as well as the Injector control. The coil and injectors are getting their base voltage, but not the control signal. It leads me to believe that the ECU still believes the truck should be immobilized but I don’t know the system enough to say if that is true or not. I would expect that it would be more than creating an open in a wire between the two modules to allow a bypass but I am not certain.

As for the universal EKA number other than the light going out after doing that process, I don’t really have another way to confirm if the process worked or not. I guess I could possibly try to get the true number for the Rover Dealer.

I think if your getting good signals from those sensors I would open the ECM and check it for water damage. If you take the screws off the housing it will all fold out on a ribbon style connector.
Not sure I would go thru all this to hear it run. It would be less trouble to pull the heads off it to have a look before stuffing it in kids truck.
As far as hooking up a GEMS engine with electronics and all isn’t Impossible but not gonna be easy.

 

[p m]

your engine is MFI V8.

 

[WaltNYC]

One quick thought...and this is so fundamental that it is easy to overlook. Is the inertia switch re-set? It is on the firewall in front of the passenger set.

 

[discostew]

One quick thought...and this is so fundamental that it is easy to overlook. Is the inertia switch re-set? It is on the firewall in front of the passenger set.

That’s a good idea but he says he has fuel pressure.

 

[kcreech]

Good afternoon all. Sorry about the time between posts. Also sorry as I tend to ask multiple questions as I am going to do below. First of all Thanks to P M for the clarification on the wiring for the engine. Discostew, please forgive my lack of Rover knowledge, but I am interested in the statement of "not spending time to get this engine running and just pull the heads". Is that suggestion based on the potential for the liners to move?
As for the immobilizer concern, I checked the following. I checked all of the powers and grounds to the ECU. They were good. I also checked the black wire from the alarm system. It was constantly grounded no matter what I did with the temp EKA code. I had hoped to see a change in state thus indicating that the Immobilizer had been "turned off" but it didn't' change. In looking at the archives, I am either looking wrong as I wasn't able to find anything posted by "IIRC, Dan Chapman once posted the trick" as p m had noted in the first response to my question. I did however find something indicating that PTshram might have the solution but I am not sure how to get contact with him to pose the question. Lastly, I tried to contact the local rover dealer to ask about the EKA. I spoke with the parts department and they contacted their warranty group and looked up the vin, but they didn't find the EKA number. Has anyone had experience in talking with a dealer and getting the code?

 

[rover rob]

Good afternoon all. Sorry about the time between posts. Also sorry as I tend to ask multiple questions as I am going to do below. First of all Thanks to P M for the clarification on the wiring for the engine. Discostew, please forgive my lack of Rover knowledge, but I am interested in the statement of "not spending time to get this engine running and just pull the heads". Is that suggestion based on the potential for the liners to move?
As for the immobilizer concern, I checked the following. I checked all of the powers and grounds to the ECU. They were good. I also checked the black wire from the alarm system. It was constantly grounded no matter what I did with the temp EKA code. I had hoped to see a change in state thus indicating that the Immobilizer had been "turned off" but it didn't' change. In looking at the archives, I am either looking wrong as I wasn't able to find anything posted by "IIRC, Dan Chapman once posted the trick" as p m had noted in the first response to my question. I did however find something indicating that PTshram might have the solution but I am not sure how to get contact with him to pose the question. Lastly, I tried to contact the local rover dealer to ask about the EKA. I spoke with the parts department and they contacted their warranty group and looked up the vin, but they didn't find the EKA number. Has anyone had experience in talking with a dealer and getting the code?

I did however find something indicating that PTshram might have the solution but I am not sure how to get contact with him to pose the question.

look at the random stalling post. PT commented there and his contact info is in his signature.

 

[Flyfish]

but I am interested in the statement of "not spending time to get this engine running and just pull the heads

I’m not sure pulling the heads is the ri way to go. That’s not going to help identify why you’re losing fuel and/or spark or whatever.

You need to keep looking. Fuses, cam & crank sensors, sensor wires, multi-function unit etc etc.

The dealer can get the EKA code. I would call a different dealer. And if that doesn’t work, you can order a new fob that will come with a programmer and new EKA code.

 

[robbyb20]

You have some extremely knowledgeable people giving you advice and they are much better than me but I had this exact issue last summer.

It would turn over all day long but never start. Had fuel pressure but no spark. The crankshaft position sensor connector came loose. Pulled the exhaust manifold on the driver side, reached near the back of the engine, took off the cps sensor cover and reattached the connector. Started right up and havent had an issue since. Mine didnt require the sensor to be replaced but yours might. Might be worth checking out.

 

[discostew]

I’m not sure pulling the heads is the ri way to go. That’s not going to help identify why you’re losing fuel and/or spark or whatever.

You need to keep looking. Fuses, cam & crank sensors, sensor wires, multi-function unit etc etc.

The dealer can get the EKA code. I would call a different dealer. And if that doesn’t work, you can order a new fob that will come with a programmer and new EKA code.

There is no EKA code in this market. The dealership told him the truth.