Any Mortgage Lenders?

bigred

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Apr 20, 2004
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SCSL

Very good explanation of the liquidity crisis. It's a shame that there is such an overwhelming amount of misinformation out there, and it is continuously pumped down the public's throats by "respected" sources.
 

scubaman99

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Sunnyvale, CA
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flyfisher11 said:
I disagree. If this is your case then you need to take it to the appraisal board. The appraisal is strictly based on value. They don't "hit" the number. They appraise based on the market, supply and demand, and what comps they have.

:rofl: thats how things "SHOULD BE" but come on... this is the real world... how much business do you think an appraiser would get after he/she appraised a home on what it "should be" and not some number close to what the contract price was settled on...:ack:

not saying its right... just what really happens.

Case in point. I had to get two appraisal on my mothers house (probate)... the first words out of both of the appraisers mouth after i told them the appraisal is for a probate:

"what kind of value are you looking for???" :rolleyes:
 

bigred

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scubaman99 said:
:rofl: thats how things "SHOULD BE" but come on... this is the real world... how much business do you think an appraiser would get after he/she appraised a home on what it "should be" and not some number close to what the contract price was settled on...:ack:

In most cases what it "should be" is what the contract price is. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

The only reason you thought it weird that they asked you about the value on your moms house is that you have no idea how the process actually works. They have to have a starting point from which to begin their validation of value.
 
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flyfisher11

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May 25, 2005
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scubaman99 said:
:rofl: thats how things "SHOULD BE" but come on... this is the real world... how much business do you think an appraiser would get after he/she appraised a home on what it "should be" and not some number close to what the contract price was settled on...:ack:

not saying its right... just what really happens.

Case in point. I had to get two appraisal on my mothers house (probate)... the first words out of both of the appraisers mouth after i told them the appraisal is for a probate:

"what kind of value are you looking for???" :rolleyes:

It is very simple. Go to MLS find comps, make adjustments necessary, and appraise the property. The MARKET drives the VALUE. Who was the customer in this appraisal you are speaking of? Many times the homeowner thinks they are but mostly it is the lender.
 

MarkP

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Apr 23, 2004
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One way to determine the value of a property is to look at previous sales, sq. ft., ammenities, etc. and curve fit to the trend. Looking at the MLS only gives you an idea how much people "think" their property is worth, not where the market is headed or what has happened in the past. It also reflects what the real estate agent "sold" their customers on perceived value.

So while the market does mostly set the value the important aspect is "mostly". Appraisers do use comps but they are not always available. How does an appraiser value a property where there is very low turnover? Or how do they value homes when prices are rising at 18% per year. Now that we are on the downside what value does and appraiser put on a property when values are dropping 10%, 15%, . . . Volitility is not an appraisers friend.

Then add in a bank that wants to finance as much as possible for fees and profits . . .
 

apg

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Dec 28, 2004
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East Virginia
scubaman99 said:
Case in point. I had to get two appraisal on my mothers house (probate)... the first words out of both of the appraisers mouth after i told them the appraisal is for a probate:

"what kind of value are you looking for???"

Then your next call should have been to find another appraiser or to the state's appraisal licensing board. One of the positive events to come out of the *last* "mortgage crisis" back in the 1980's was nation-wide appraisal licensing - there were so many simply willing to "make the numbers", and these crooks do not need to be doing business. An appraiser who asks what value you are looking for is doing you a tremendous disservice. You want to know what the value is as of a specific date - the date of death of the decedent. With the exemption on the primary residence these days, it is unlikely that the estate will have to pay any taxes on that. However, taxes may be due on any gains between the date of death and the date of sale - particularly if the appraiser low-balled it originally or the market is rapidly appreciating (not that *that's* happening as of late....)

I've been an appraiser for well over three decades - only slightly longer than I have been driving a Land-Rover. However, I don't do houses unless they are historic (the oldest was built 1656) or very high-end. Commercial, industrial, special-purpose properties (shipyards, airports, railroads, occasionally some pretty weird stuff - like an historic railroad tunnel - or real estate that is physically moving) and a lot of litigation valuation - meaning it is going to court. And when you go to court, you've got to be able to defend your opinion of value from some vigorous cross-examination. Yeah, every market has appraisers that will say *anything* for a fee, but what good does that do you? Something I have never been able to figure out is what does the appraiser get for preparing a fraudulent home appraisal? At most, a few hundred bucks? He or she has the potential of losing far more....


scubaman99 said:
thats how things "SHOULD BE" but come on... this is the real world... how much business do you think an appraiser would get after he/she appraised a home on what it "should be" and not some number close to what the contract price was settled on...

not saying its right... just what really happens.

Unfortunately, yeah, that does happen. There's a case working its way though the federal courts right now regarding a group of appraisers who were 'blacklisted' by a major mortgage lender because they "didn't make the numbers." Another problem is the 'rise of the machines' - AVM's or automated valuation models. Dump enough sales data in and 'appraisals' of a sort come out. Or as an engineer would say, GIGO.... (All those "free" home valuations you see on-line are some variation on the AVM theme). Sometimes the person signing the report may never even see the property or just do a "drive-by". I had one case where the other appraiser didn't even realize the property had burned to the ground and had been bulldozed as of his date of valuation. Needless to say, he looked pretty stupid in court....

Cheers
 

MarkP

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Apr 23, 2004
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Colorado
SCSL said:
- this drying-up of liquidity is what happens when suddenly nobody knows how to value their securities, there is no base-line of value, and therefore trading stops-- the securities effectively have no value until this is resolved

The key issue - unknown value of securities. The mark to model in which the model is aggressive and assumes values always appreciate. The risk of the downside was viewed to be minimal because the institution wasn't going to hold on the loan anyway. Then cracks appeared and some began to question the internals of the loans and structured investment vehicles. I suspect what they found was creative financing and loans that would not have been made under traditional lending standards.

So here is where others will have to further the explanation. SIVs are off balance sheet, right? That means money doesn't have to be set aside to cover risk. They are also financing borrowed under short term rates and lent long term. Take advantage of the spread. Once "the music stopped" the lenders couldn't flip the loans, had to bring the SIVs on-balance sheet and write off . . . . . $$$$ billions. In the mean time the money created, liquidity, is adversely impacted.

The other shoe is that now lending standards have been raised to reduce risk. The impact is on the buyers. There are now fewer buyers for the increased inventory. The sellers cut the price to sell which puts pressure on the value of the SIVs.

Hence, "no-value". Well, they have some value but nobody knows what that is.
 

No Pvmt

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Feb 7, 2006
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Mark P, well said. They have somewhat of an idea (of value) but are not willing to hold and or obtain any additional risk. This is due to uncertainty of the time for the market to correct.
 
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flyfisher11

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No Pvmt said:
Mark P, well said. They have somewhat of an idea (of value) but are not willing to hold and or obtain any additional risk. This is due to uncertainty of the time for the market to correct.

Property valuation is based on a specific time agreed on by the appraiser and the customer, lender in most cases, using highest and best use valuation criteria.
 

MarkP

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Apr 23, 2004
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No Pvmt said:
Mark P, well said. They have somewhat of an idea (of value) but are not willing to hold and or obtain any additional risk. This is due to uncertainty of the time for the market to correct.

I'm sure this makes many uncomfortable . . . .

from Calulated Risk

Citigroup: $134.8 billion in 'level 3' assets

From MarketWatch: Citigroup reports $134.8 billion in 'level 3' assets

Citigroup Inc. ... said its so-called level 3 assets as of Sept. 30 were $134.84 billion. Level 3 assets are holdings that are so illiquid, or trade so infrequently, that they have no reliable price, so their valuations are based on management's best guess.

From the Citi 10-Q:

Level 3—Model derived valuations in which one or more significant inputs or significant value drivers are unobservable.

I suspect they are "under observation" :D
 

apg

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flyfisher11 said:
Property valuation is based on a specific time agreed on by the appraiser and the customer, lender in most cases, using highest and best use valuation criteria.

One of the strangest valuations was for a shopping center. Except it had to be appraised as of 65 years previously - 1923, IIRC. That predated the shopping center, the city itself, and even the main (now 8 lane) highway in the area.

Mark mentioned "no value". Well, several times I have had to tell the landowner or bank that the subject property had significant negative value as the site's liabilities (environmental remediation expenses) far exceeded the market value of the land, if free and clear - and one was for a corner, high-traffic site. (It remains vacant a dozen years after the fact....)
 

MarkP

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The other big shoe to drop will be the public sector. Government is spending like no tomorrow and compensation is 30% higher than the private sector. Pension plans are built on unrealistic investment assumptions and many are billions underfunded. Government "free money" has been financing the economy for too many decades.

Has the music stopped in CA?

Schwarzenegger Orders Plan for 10% Budget Cuts
Los Angeles Times ^ | 11-6-07 | Evan Halper

SACRAMENTO -- -- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Monday ordered all state departments to draft plans for deep spending cuts after receiving word that California's budget is plunging further into the red -- largely because of the troubled housing market. . . .​
 

apg

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One day after Citigroup acknowledged an additional $11 billion in losses, its CEO, Charles Prince stepped down. Yesterday, Citigroup's stock was trading below $36, which means it has lost a staggering $94 billion in 'book value' since its high of $54 a share in May. $94 billion...think about that. It's more than the *total capitalization* of companies like Goldman Sachs, Dell, McDonald's or UPS.... Yet Prince is to receive a "parting gift" of $99 million. Merrill Lynch's CEO Stanley O'Neal got $161 million retirement gift even after an $8.4 billion write-off that represented the biggest known loss in Wall Street history.

Citigroup was always a big player in SIVs - structured investment vehicles - which are off-balance sheet funds organized by banks with such hard to value securities. Needless to say, the SEC is now starting to look into how Citigroup accounted for its funds.

BTW, the single largest Citi shareholder is Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal....

Citigroup has seven SIVs with a total of $80 billion in assets - supposedly..... The problem is that much of this paper involved sub-prime lending. In 2003, sub-prime lending represented 8.5% of the total of all mortgages written in the US. In 2005 and 2006, it was 20% of the total. The trouble is, a lot of that paper got bundled and sold by the big boys as AAA-rated stuff, when it should have been traded as junk. It was like the financial equivalent of the Wild West....

It appears that this sub-prime lending debacle is some sort of natural- or nation-wide experiment in unfettered capitalism, complete with a laissez-faire attitude from the SEC. The mantra of this administration has always been 'privatization' and 'let the markets decide'. Well, billions in losses seems to be the result, and I'm sure it's gonna get much worse before it gets better. Perhaps a *little bit* of oversight or governmental accountability is a good thing....
 

MarkP

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Most analysis I have read tie the current financial market issues to the 1999 Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and Greenspan, which under his 18-year chairmanship we saw the greatest expansion of speculative financing in world history.
 

apg

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Sub-prime mortgages were virtually non-existent prior to 2000. Yeah, there were ARM's but these are/were a different critter. Financial analysts consider the 2000 to 2001 period to be one of the worst WRT foreclosures, following the collapse of the "dot com" bubble. In 2003, sub-prime lending accounted for but 8% or so of the loans but up to 21% in the years afterwards. A half-million homes are now in foreclosure nationwide and it's going to get worse.

To: All Employees
From: Chuck Prince
Date: November 4, 2007

Dear Citi Colleagues:

Today we are announcing my retirement from Citi.

I say this with sadness. Our strategy for building for the future is working - for emphasizing our international businesses, our Institutional Clients Group and our Wealth Management business, and for restarting revenue growth in our U.S. Consumer business. Our strategy to operate as a real company - not a collection of acquired businesses - with a focus on our infrastructure, our clients, and a strong unified brand and employee culture - is the right one. It is working well and is fully supported by our Board.

Ummm...$6 billion in third quarter losses from the largest banking group in the nation and $8 to 11 billion in yet unnanounced 4th quarter losses on top of a $90+ billion loss in capitalization. Yup... "We're winning." "We've got the basic strategy right." "Stay the course." Where have I heard that? :eek:
 

MarkP

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apg said:
Sub-prime mortgages were virtually non-existent prior to 2000. Yeah, there were ARM's but these are/were a different critter. Financial analysts consider the 2000 to 2001 period to be one of the worst WRT foreclosures, following the collapse of the "dot com" bubble. In 2003, sub-prime lending accounted for but 8% or so of the loans but up to 21% in the years afterwards. A half-million homes are now in foreclosure nationwide and it's going to get worse.



Ummm...$6 billion in third quarter losses from the largest banking group in the nation and $8 to 11 billion in yet unnanounced 4th quarter losses on top of a $90+ billion loss in capitalization. Yup... "We're winning." "We've got the basic strategy right." "Stay the course." Where have I heard that?

Ah, another emotional response, void of perspective. Blame it on Bush. Why am I not surprised.

Citigroup was formed from the merger of Citicorp and Travelers Group in 1998. The merger combined a multinational banking corporation (Citigroup) with a business that covered credit services, consumer finance, brokerage and insurance (Travelers). The Glass-Steagall Act, enacted following the Great Depression, forbade banks to merge with insurance underwriters, and meant Citigroup had between two and five years to divest of any prohibited assets. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of November 1999 opened the door to financial services conglomerates offering a mix of commercial banking, investment banking, insurance underwriting and brokerage.

Who was Treasury Secratary when Citigroup merged with Travelers in 1998? Robert Rubin. Who became Chairman of Citigroup after the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act? Robert Rubin. The mix of banking, investment, insurance and brokerage during Greenspans expansion of speculative financing and credit significantly expanded debt at many levels. As already pointed out it is wrong to call this a "subprime" problem. It is a debt problem. In the end it will be a multi-Trillion dollar debt problem.

Bernanke is fighting asset deflation, not inflation.
 

MarkP

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Another perspective that has been blamed on Bush - Enron. Well here is reality . . . and it plays with today's issues.

Page 2 of 5
CREDIT BUST BYPASSES BANKS
Part 1: The rise of the non-bank financial system

By Henry C K Liu
Asia Times

"The role of banks in the Enron fraud

When speculation grew about the role Citibank played in the collapse of Enron, shares of Citigroup fell 12%.

The US Senate heard testimony from Senate investigators about the role US banks and their investment-bank subsidiaries might have played in backing the specious accounting at Enron in a complex scheme known as "pre-pays", under which Enron booked loans as energy trades and thus as profits to make the firm look far more profitable than it really was.

The investigators contended that Enron could not have shown such profitability but for the shady help of large commercial banks, such as Citigroup and JPMorgan Chase, and their investment-banking arms. Under General Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP), loans issued to Enron should have been booked as debt rather than revenue.

Both Citigroup and JPMorgan claimed that "pre-pay" transactions are entirely lawful.

Each bank engaged in about a dozen deals that involved questionable transactions with the failed energy trader. Enron then illegally hid the loans by cloaking them in transactions that were booked as energy trades to show it was earning more money than it really was. This in turned boosted not only Enron's share price but also its credit rating, permitting it to continue to secure loans at preferential rates. The convoluted transactions involved the leveraged purchase of natural gas and other commodities over long periods with credit to look like sales and booked as revenue to increase profits.

Outrageously, while Enron booked the transactions as profits from phantom revenue, it did not report them on its tax returns, electing instead to log them as loans to deduct interest payments. About $5 billion of such loan amounts remained outstanding when Enron filed for protection under Chapter 11 of the US Bankruptcy Code, which allowed the company to operate as a debtor-in-possession to try to minimize loss to creditors. According to the Senate report, the transactions, which took place from 1992 to 2001, in effect hid part of Enron's mounting debt, which eventually bankrupted the doomed energy giant. . . . "​

"Subprime" is one of many debt's coming due from Greenspan and the 90's.
 

MarkP

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News from tomorrow . . . .

GM to take $39 billion non-cash charge
Yahoo Asia News
Wednesday November 7

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Automaker General Motors Corp said on Tuesday it would book a $39 billion non-cash charge in the third quarter related to deferred tax assets in the United States, Canada and Germany.

The company also said it faced more challenging near-term automotive market conditions in the United States and Germany.​

Edit add UK perspective: GM to record $39B non-cash charge in 3Q for a deferred tax valuation allowance

. . . the ongoing weakness at GMAC Financial Services related to its Residential Capital LLC mortgage business;​



:ack:
 
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B

bterpstra

Guest
Thanks to SCSL for one of the very few rational descriptions of current events. Excellent summary. And I agree -90% of what you hear in the news is wrong.

A couple of additional points:

1) Not all mortgages behaved exactly according to the model. No/Low doc, 80/20 deals defaulted much faster and earlier than predicted. These 80/20 no doc loans were the initial snowball that started the avalanche rolling down the hill.

Most other products were right on pace. Make no mistake though - there is a huge database available to the quants to make models from. The models are actually extremely good.

2) Ratings agencies "leaned" on their models a bit to win deals, in response to the dealers and loan sellers that were shopping ratings. The worst job in the world is to work for one of the ratings agencies. If you are Fitch and assign higher subordination/credit enhancement levels to a deal (i.e. "I can rate only $900 million of this $1 billion pool as AAA") than your peers over at Moody's and S&P get the deal and about $2 million in fees. Obviously, there's pressure to lean on the models a bit. There's a basic conflict of interest at the ratings agencies that has to be addressed. If you earn money by rating deals, but nobody hires you to rate deals if you are too conservative, bond ratings will drift into very aggressive territory that may not be justified by the facts. AAA bonds will eventually be something less than a real AAA. That's one thing we've been seeing.

3) With some mortages going belly up faster and earlier than predicted, investors lost confidence in ratings altogether and backed away from buying those asset backed bonds.

4) That impacted my market (commercial mortgage backed securities) since if we can't rely on Moody's/Fitch's/S&P's ratings on residential MBS, why should I rely on them for commercial mortgages or anything else for that matter.

5) CDO's suffered the worst - Most CDO's (not mine - mine are backed by whole loans, not that it matters today) are backed by bonds with ratings. If you don't believe the ratings on the collateral backing the CDO bonds, why would you EVER believe the ratings on the CDO bonds????

6) For the most part, the underlying issue as SCSL says is liquidity. Subprime borrowers can't refinance because noone can get their hands on the cash to provide them a loan. If they can't refinance, and they can't afford the new rate on the mortgage when it resets, they either have to do a forced sale or default and let the bank sell it.


Summary: More than enough blame to go around. MarkP and I differ as to the Fed's responsibility here, but I think he and I both agree that there are a lot of players with some explaining to do. Wall street firms that pushed on the ratings agencies, the ratings agencies that allowed themselves to be pushed, lenders that originated loans without regard for a borrower's ability to pay at the higher adjustable rate, or lenders that just forgot good underwriting (i.e. why would you do a no doc loan for a guy that actually HAS a job and is actually able but does not want to document his income???)

And let's not forget those poor borrowers. The biggest investment of your entire life and you fail to read the section of the note or the disclosures explaining how your payment works? Or, you lie about your income so you can get the mortgage, like the extra income is going to magically appear to pay the bill?

That said, here's a few more myths.

1) The vast majority of defaults are caused by divorce and unforeseen medical expenses with job loss a distant third place. In subprime world, a fourth cause would be poor money management skills. Oddly enough, if you really wanted to fix the mortgage problem, you need to do something about healthcare. We're too rich a country to have mothers and kids without insurance.

2) Subprime lending isn't a bad thing. When I was buying these loans 10 years ago, we always expected 30% of them would default and we'd lose 40% of the loan balance on average. Having 30% of the loans default and 30% of the families on the street is a bad thing. Still that's 70% that remain in their homes that wouldn't have had the chance.

3) ARM loans and interest only loans are not necessarily a bad thing. I've had one of each. My current mortgage is interest only. I have a small salary with a larger bonus (not this year!) , so the low payment for 11 months of the year matches my income pattern and helps me manage cash better.

Happy to chat about the whole issue with anyone impacted. Also, my apologies to anyone who's in financial trouble and takes offense at my broad sweeping generalizations. As has been said, "There but for the grace of God, go I."


Regards,
BT
 

apg

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Dec 28, 2004
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East Virginia
MarkP said:
Another perspective that has been blamed on Bush - Enron. Well here is reality . . . and it plays with today's issues.

Page 2 of 5
CREDIT BUST BYPASSES BANKS
Part 1: The rise of the non-bank financial system

By Henry C K Liu
Asia Times

"The role of banks in the Enron fraud



Are you *sure* you wanted to cut-n-paste this? Remember, Enron was Bush's largest campaign contributor....

The point I'm trying to make is that *some* government oversight - especially in banking - is a good thing. But recently, we've had the nexus of Wall Street big boys leaning on the rating agencies to fraudulently inflate the value of the paper backed by questionable mortgages secured by inflated appraisals. Some regulation might have been a good thing, in hindsight. Instead, there was this wild west, anything goes attitude amongst the various financial institutions - leading to the situation we are in.

Far from "big brother", I want *some* government oversight. Like having the Department of the Interior actually looking out for the landowner (us) rather than giving away the store to the lowest bidder. It might be nice to have department heads who weren't former industry lobbyists - some of whom are now headed to jail. We don't need the foxes guarding the henhouse....

It might be a good thing to have someone in charge of a federal agency who actually had experience in the field, not some loyal, no-nothing crony.

How about tax cuts for everybody, not just a few of the wealthiest campaign contributors?

How about a watchdog agency with ethics that actually wants to do its job and protect the consumer, instead of letting businesses police themselves?

It's probably a good thing to have someone in charge who actually believes in the rule of law and the Constitution, instead of routinely shredding it and referring to it as a "goddamned piece of paper."​