APG and Mark P to get their own section!!!

Oct 27, 2004
3,000
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Why do you put so much value in polls? If everyone else thinks it, so do you? I dont understand.

83% of Americans think we are heading the wrong way...So what? Your average American can bearly find America on a map, and they get their news fromt eh daily show.
 

thedude

Well-known member
Sep 10, 2007
465
0
Chris-St Louis said:
Why do you put so much value in polls? If everyone else thinks it, so do you? I dont understand.

83% of Americans think we are heading the wrong way...So what? Your average American can bearly find America on a map, and they get their news fromt eh daily show.


no shit......he is right. poles are mostly useless
 

asmith996

Well-known member
Dec 1, 2005
670
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Rockville, MD
thedude said:
no shit......he is right. poles are mostly useless


Usless to who? Remember that polls reflect the mood of the nation and distinguish between usless and right in your mind. If 83 percent of the nation thought it would be a good idea to make Ohio a penal colony/toxic waste dump you can bet your ass both sides would be looking into fencing costs and how many miles the perimeter of Ohio is. Does it mean 83 percent of the country is wrong? Sure it does, but that poll sure wasn't useless to the politician who got elected based on a promise to create the Buckeye maximum security prison/toxic waste dump.

People have become so marketed to that they are way to easy to manipulate, and polls are a great measure of how well that marketing is working. I'll bet if you had a big enough budget, you could get 83 percent of the people in this country to believe the sky will look purple if they stop eating fish or something, just tell them it's a vitamin deficiency and trot out a few experts. Bam! time to buy stock in fisheries.

The dumbing down of the American populace is the real problem here. Lets face it, no one gets to the top tier of politics by being a moron. People at the top will also do anything to stay there, and it's a lot easier to heard sheep than wolves.
 

apg

Well-known member
Dec 28, 2004
3,019
0
East Virginia
Chris-St Louis said:
83% of Americans think we are heading the wrong way...So what? Your average American can bearly find America on a map, and they get their news fromt eh daily show.

Then why aren't you supporting Dick Cheney for president? That's his exact attitude, except when asked about the wrong track issue and the killed/wounded as a result of the Iraq debacle, he replied with "so?". Pretty much sums up their 'legacy'....

Personally, I think that there should be more requirements for voting than just having a pulse - especially IQ-wise - like actually being able to find America on a map, or date the Civil War to the nearest century. (Those "street walking" segments on Jay Leno are truly frightening.) Karl Rove capitalized on this fact and condensed every issue into nice, neat, bumper-sticker-length slogans, matching the attention span of the average FAUXnews viewer. It bothers me greatly that who got voted off the most recent American Idol is a bigger news story than recurrent assaults on our Constitution. That's but one of the reasons why I'm so concerned about the future of this nation.
 
Oct 27, 2004
3,000
4
Again, Just because its not popular doesnt mean its wrong. Not defending Bush, or anyone in this arguement. The fact is, as you have seen with Leno, Americans have zero situational awareness. They wont look any deeper, like you,I Mark, and a host of others on this board do. So, to say "XX% of people think this/that" is useless in any arguement being intellectually honest.

Fox news isnt the only one telling their side. CNN is pumped into our lunchroom here at work. Talk about the Condensending Left! They are heavy on it. MSNBC... Even worse.

In fact, if the Average American even got their news of any "Reputable" source would put them far ahead of where they are now. I talk to friends and family who dont even have a basic understanding of where the candiates stand. I mean, not even a basic one.

So, as far as your polls go.... I ask you "If everyone was jumping off a cliff........"
 

apg

Well-known member
Dec 28, 2004
3,019
0
East Virginia
Fair enough of an argument - especially when talking about lemmings.... But I hope to god (insert the deity of your choice) that the average voter has more brains than a rodent. Then again, that would explain a lot.... (BTW, that Disney nature film of lemmings jumping off a cliff in the 50's - it wasn't true....)

So, Chris, where do you go for unvarnished, un-biased info - other than the internet? My personal favorite is The Economist magazine from the UK.... Yeah, yeah, print media is dead....
 

antichrist

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2004
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68
Atlanta, GA
flyfisher11 said:
FWIW I flew many many more humanitarian missions than combat mission in my 27 years in the AF. I got a lot of satisfaction out of that, but for an example whilst flying humanitarian missions into Mogadishu Somalia bringing in tons of food and medical supplies, we'd get shot at on departure.
I feel compelled to ask, who was shooting at you? The people who were starving, or the people who wanted to keep the starving under their thumb, and their supporters?
I realize in the end, a bullet is a bullet, and you're just as dead, no matter who it comes from.
But just because some "criminals" don't want you doing humanitarian work, doesn't mean it's a bad thing to do it. Just dangerous at times.
 

MarkP

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2004
6,672
0
Colorado
apg said:
. . . 83% of those polled think we are on the wrong track. . . .

This is an amusing poll that can be leveraged by anyone. Which way are we headed? What track? You won't find it in the poll. The Left will try and use the current incumbant as the reference point for why we are headed in the wrong direction. They will say "see, conservativism is the wrong direction" when in fact the ever shifting move towards socialism is the root cause.

Just a few of the "wrong tracks"

Government spending is out of control. There is little difference between "Compassionate Conservatism" (left leaning Republicans) and Lieberman/Miller Democrats. The far-Left, represented by Obama, would spend even more with less tax revenue. The entitlement train-wreck, created under FDR, has been building steam for decades. The false meme is that the current President, whoever it is, spent more than the previous President. Well, duh! Until entitlement spending is brought under control that will be true for every subsequent President. You can't raise tax rates and pay for the empty promises. Deficit spending also devalues currency. Worldwide governments are spending more than they should. A significant contributore to inflation is devaluation of currency, the printing press. The general public knows this and believes this is one of the "wrong tracks"

Nanny state - 60+% of Americans want less services, less government. What are our politicians doing? Increasing services by pandering to a few. This increases the cost of government and further drives up spending. Our representatives are leaning the wrong way by increasing the size of government. Another "wrong track".

Energy policy - Democrats will try to scapegoat oil companies but most Americans know we have done very little to move our energy policies forward to service economic growth, both in the US and worldwide. We continue to prevent use of our resources through regulation while increasing dependency on imports. The reality is that fossil fuels (oil, natural gas and coal) provide 86% of our total energy flow while renewables provide roughly 6%. No one will disagree that we need to invest in alternative energy sources but to not grow your primary source of domestic energy is idiocy. The oil companies should be viewed as partners, not villified. Calls to nationalize this industry are an example of the "wrong track". Use of food as fuel is another example of the "wrong track".

Healthcare - It is common knowledge that universal healthcare and government intervention in the best healthcare system in the world will produce lower quality healthcare at much higher cost. Any calls to nationalize healthcare are the "wrong track".

Economic state - The Greenspan Fed, in a series of bailouts (socializing risk), created the stock market and housing bubbles. With the value of investment portfilios shrinking, home prices declining to normal income multiples, inflation jumping as government prints money for more bailouts and fiat currencies dropping in value as a result, the cost of socializing risk and big government become apparent.​
 

apg

Well-known member
Dec 28, 2004
3,019
0
East Virginia
MarkP said:
This is an amusing poll that can be leveraged by anyone. Which way are we headed? What track? You won't find it in the poll. The Left will try and use the current incumbant as the reference point for why we are headed in the wrong direction. They will say "see, conservativism is the wrong direction" when in fact the ever shifting move towards socialism is the root cause.

...and we're off and running, again, with the cut'n'pastes. Too bad that most or your "wrong track references" originate within this administration.

Government spending...this administration has been spending like a drunken sailor, which should be an insult to inebriated mariners everywhere. (See debt growth below.) And it's not even *our* money they are spending...it's our kid's and grandkid's....

The "nannny state".... Look what happens when you do away with some of the traditional watchdogs, or worse, get industry (logging, oil, coal, pharmaceuticals, financial, etc.) to police itself. As if.... The FDA has been eviscerated, so we get bad or contaminated drugs. The Consumer Product Safety Commission has been rendered ineffective by the "temporary" appointment of a former lobbyist for the National Manufacturers' Association as the department head. Should lead painted crap for China be a surprise? Neither should oil and gas leases - *our* resources - given away by the Department of the Interior for pennies on the dollar be a surprise. And a lax SEC has allowed a wild west attitude to prevail in the financial markets.

Energy policy...what a laugh. Off-shore or ANWR drilling isn't going to help $4 gasoline one bit. The only thing it 'fuels' is a mad scramble for more oil and gas leases at fire-sale prices. And when it comes in, 10 years from now, ANWR oil *might* reduce the price of oil $0.75 per barrel - and this is from the Department of Energy itself. Corn into fuel? Who got rich on that? Besides a major campaign donor, that is, the Archer Daniels Midland Corp? What a boondoggle....something that 'costs' more in energy than it produces.

Economic state: Show me an economic indicator that is up substantially since Bush took office. And when things looked bad last spring, the administration pulled the plug on public access to the gov't's leading economic indicators web page. Nothing to see here. Move along....

Wage growth is low: hourly wages were 2.5% higher and weekly wages were only 1.6% higher in December of 2007 than in March of 2001. Not per year. Total. Over the past 12 months, real hourly earnings have fallen by 0.7% and weekly wages by 0.9%.

Job growth has weakened substantially, and has averaged an annualized 0.6% since 2000. Benefits are disappearing. Family debt is on the rise while the percentage of mortgages in foreclosure increases. (See "oversight" above.) The housing market is in a slump with home sales/values down significantly. The median sales price of existing homes was 6.0% lower in December 2007 than a year earlier and the median sales price of new homes had dropped 10.4%. The supply of homes for sale is the highest since February 1982. Home equity is declining, even though 60% of the average American's wealth is represented by home equity.

Alarmingly, business investment is low and productivity growth has slowed. Business investment has averaged but 10.4% of the GDP between March 2001 and December 2007, the lowest share since the 1960s. Net investment, after accounting for depreciation of capital goods, averaged only 1.9% of GDP, the lowest share of any business cycle *ever* recorded. Even labor productivity growth fell below 2% in the years 2005 to 2007, for the first time since 1997.

And then there's the deficit - which has increased yet again. In January 2008, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that the deficit for 2008 will amount to $219 billion, $56 billion more than in 2007, not including the cost of an economic stimulus or any additional appropriations for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

This deficit is being bought up by foreigners, as they bought 77.2% of new treasury debt last year. This share of debt held by foreigners grew to 46% in September of '07 from 31% in March of 2001. Interest payments from the fed to foreigners rose to $39 billion in the second quarter 2007 from $21 billion in the first quarter of 2001. And the trade deficit remains high, growing from 5.0 to 5.2% of GDP between the third and fourth quarters of 2007. I don't know how this nation can survive being a debtor nation...something it has been since 1985 or so. But in the words of Dick Cheney "deficits don't matter." :eek:

The dollar is so low trading against foreign currencies that several American "institutions" may be bought up for foreign investors. Like CSX railroad. Or *Budweiser*....

The only place I kinda agree with Mark is on health care. Sort of.... just something has to be done.

Yeah, we're in great shape for the shape we're in....:rolleyes:
 
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MarkP

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2004
6,672
0
Colorado
apg said:
...and we're off and running, again, with the cut'n'pastes. Too bad that most or your "wrong track references" originate within this administration.

Uh, no. No linked references at all. It it my opinion that I can back up with data. There is a reason the definition of "wrong track" was left out of polls.


apg said:
The only place I kinda agree with Mark is on health care. Sort of.... just something has to be done.

Yikes! Sandy and I agree :D In the not too distant future . . . . . . . anything is possible.