Army rankings

discopedro

Well-known member
Jul 16, 2008
812
0
las vegas,nevada
A guy my wife and I know is a cwo2, don't really understand what that rank is.The guy is a West Point grad and flies Apaches. I always thought after you get out of the academy you're Lt and you progress from there. Maybe it's something to do with his choice to keep flying instead of moving up in rank? Can anyone help me understand a little better? Thanks
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Warrant Officers generally flock around helicopters. It's a chopper thing. Tough sons of bitches in my experience, the lot of them. There is more to a CWO than a pay-grade. Seemed to me they were like some result of genetically combining a master sergeant and a captain.

Never met one I didn't like. As far as I was concerned, there was a taxi service involved, but damned if those buggers couldn't kick some ass and pull rank doing it. High speed low drag soldiers. I was briefly under the command of a CWO, and he was the best damned commander I had. Knocked my fucking block off once, but I deserved it.

If I'm honest, though, I never did understand the rank. :D Didn't matter when the new uniforms hit, though. When that happened, I couldn't tell anyone from Adam. That stuff just fucks with my eyes.

Cheers,

Kennith
 
Last edited:

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Axel said:
Since I served in the Norwegian armed forces (Coast Artillery) before moving to the US and have no idea what a Warrant Officer is, I had to look it up. If anyone else is curious, the history behind and explanation of what a Warrant Officer's role is, can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer_%28United_States%29

Well, all that does is confuse the issue even more for me.:rofl: It's an interesting rank, though, from the link. I hope it isn't rendered obsolete. We always called them either chief or sir. None of that "mister" malarkey.

Near as I can tell, most of them were involved with Helos at some point. Could be wrong, though. That might just have been my own experience with them. Seems the one we had took right to combat arms like he was born for it.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

chris snell

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 15, 2005
3,020
152
A lot of Aviation Officers resign their commission once they get to Major in order to keep flying. The vast majority of Army pilots are Warrants and the career path for an Aviation Officer after Captain is pretty much just a string of staff jobs. If you're an O-4 and you just want to fly, the obvious choice is to resign your commission and move over to the WO side. They don't have to go to WOCS, they just pin on CWO2 and keep flying.
 
Last edited:

chris snell

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 15, 2005
3,020
152
One more thing, Warrant Officers aren't just an Aviation thing. They are considered the technicians of the Army and fill roles that require a highly-trained subject matter expert. You'll find them leading vehicle maintenance shops, in IT roles, Intelligence, CID, Legal, geospatial units, etc.
 

Ballah06

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2007
5,638
16
Savannah, GA
Warrant officers (WO 1 through CWO 5), at least in the USMC are prior enlisted guys who go through a specific process and get commissioned and become officers with a specific MOS. They fall in a separate category between the enlisted (E 1 through E 9) and the officers, (O 1 through O 10). It is a bit of a weird thing, but IIRC in the Army CWOs can fly and do fly, rotary wing only. In the USMC flying is restricted to the officers (those who have gone through OCS, TBS and the respective MOS school).

And like Chris said, CWOs do tend to fly way more than commissioned officers and are pretty much the experts of their own field. Like a gunner in the USMC for example. A CWO who is knowledgeable of all infantry weapon systems, knows their employment, capabilities, limitations, etc. Usually one per BN.
 
Last edited:
Jan 25, 2010
3,544
4
your moms bed
Ballah06 said:
In the USMC flying is restricted to the officers
Unless your a crew chief or sometimes an AO on a ch-53.At least thats what I saw at the reserve squadron I was attached to.I don't think it was condoned by the core but it was more that if something happened to the pilot and or co-pilot the crew chief ond or AO would be able to fly/land the bird.
 

Ballah06

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2007
5,638
16
Savannah, GA
Devildog01 said:
Unless your a crew chief or sometimes an AO on a ch-53.At least thats what I saw at the reserve squadron I was attached to.I don't think it was condoned by the core but it was more that if something happened to the pilot and or co-pilot the crew chief ond or AO would be able to fly/land the bird.

Right, it is nice to know how to handle the bird in dire situations, but CWOs do not fly the aircraft themselves per MOS in the USMC. Army of course is an entirely different ball game.
 

ArmyRover

Well-known member
Dec 4, 2007
3,230
1
Augusta, GA
Not exactly Rambo but they are generally smart squared away guys that were once an NCO and decided they wanted to make a few more bucks, my packet is in right now to change over to the Warrant side of the house.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
chris snell said:
A lot of Aviation Officers resign their commission once they get to Major in order to keep flying. The vast majority of Army pilots are Warrants and the career path for an Aviation Officer after Captain is pretty much just a string of staff jobs. If you're an O-4 and you just want to fly, the obvious choice is to resign your commission and move over to the WO side. They don't have to go to WOCS, they just pin on CWO2 and keep flying.

That explains the majority of my experience with them, then.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

pan2sa

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2006
190
0
San Antonio, Texas
A lot of Aviation Officers resign their commission once they get to Major in order to keep flying. The vast majority of Army pilots are Warrants and the career path for an Aviation Officer after Captain is pretty much just a string of staff jobs. If you're an O-4 and you just want to fly, the obvious choice is to resign your commission and move over to the WO side. They don't have to go to WOCS, they just pin on CWO2 and keep flying.

While this may be true in the Chair Farce or Marine Corps, this is incorrect in the Army. All helicopter aviators in the Army go through a specialized course for training, the very same that ALL Warrants attend for flight training. So even if they were "Commissioned" there is not a "resignation". It's more of a lateral move.... "Commissions" in the Army are voluntary, unlike the Enlisted side. Warrant Officers are also still considered "Commissioned" although it's by the Dept of the Army instead of the "Commander in Chief".
 

LRflip

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2006
5,741
25
none of your fucking business
Ballah06 said:
Warrant officers (WO 1 through CWO 5), at least in the USMC are prior enlisted guys who go through a specific process and get commissioned and become officers with a specific MOS. They fall in a separate category between the enlisted (E 1 through E 9) and the officers, (O 1 through O 10). It is a bit of a weird thing, but IIRC in the Army CWOs can fly and do fly, rotary wing only. In the USMC flying is restricted to the officers (those who have gone through OCS, TBS and the respective MOS school).

And like Chris said, CWOs do tend to fly way more than commissioned officers and are pretty much the experts of their own field. Like a gunner in the USMC for example. A CWO who is knowledgeable of all infantry weapon systems, knows their employment, capabilities, limitations, etc. Usually one per BN.

My uncle was a Mustang, my dad went through the MCEP (sp?) program...similar but, I think Mustangs are limited to a certain rank or command. Uncle retired as a Lt. Col, dad as a Major so Im not really sure what the limit was, just going off of what I heard. Hell, Im in construction, only raised at MCAS Cherry Point.
 

Ballah06

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2007
5,638
16
Savannah, GA
LRflip said:
My uncle was a Mustang, my dad went through the MCEP (sp?) program...similar but, I think Mustangs are limited to a certain rank or command. Uncle retired as a Lt. Col, dad as a Major so Im not really sure what the limit was, just going off of what I heard. Hell, Im in construction, only raised at MCAS Cherry Point.
Yeah Mustangs are commissioned officers who were prior enlisted. The MCEP and some other similar programs allow the enlisted to go through the process (college, OCS, etc.) and get commissioned as an officer. I am not aware of an existence of any restrictions or any limits placed on the prior enlisted advancing through the officer ranks. As a matter of fact I ll say there are none. It all really depends on when the enlisted goes to the blue side, rank wise. The later in the game, the less rank he is likely to achieve on the officer side simply because of age, etc.
Despite the prior enlisted part, they go through the same exact process as newly commissioned officers (in the USMC), although their OCS training IIRC may be a couple weeks shorter. Other than that, everything is the same.
 

Bender

Well-known member
Jun 8, 2004
159
0
Virginia
To clear up some of the USMC explanations...

- WO or CWOs do not pilot aircraft in the USMC. As others have explained, they are shit-hot prior NCOs with a specialty. While all officers in the Marine Corps have a specific specialty (MOS), all are expected to have some limited capability to be a jack-of-all-trades and will almost always spend some time in a career-broadening tour (outside their MOS). Conversely, Warrant Officers almost always stay in their career path and MOS. For the aviation side that means as an avionics officer, ordnance officer, or involved in maintenance control and maintenance supply. Similar specialization on the logistics, administration, and infantry side of the Marine Corps, though my brethren who have spent more time with their feet on the ground can elaborate and/or correct me on that one.
- From my discussions with Army aviators, the CWOs do indeed get to do the majority of the flying for the Army and don't have to spend as much time stuck behind a desk. I don't know about the 'resign their commission' thing. On the USMC side the pilots do all the flying (maintenance check flights, specialized missions, etc) but as an Army Blackhawk pilot once told me, most of those special mission quals tend to fall to the CWOs simply because of their greater amount of flight time and thus familiarity with the aircraft. As explained to me, most tactical missions are still led by one of the O-x guys. It wouldn't surprise me if operational necessity sometimes mean that that statement isn't a strict rule.
- Crew chiefs and aerial observers in USMC crewed-helicopters (everything but the AH-1W/Z) getting a little bit of stick time isn't something that's strictly legal, but it does happen at times. (Watching what I say of course ;) ) For some of the reasons mentioned (one of the guys in the front incapacitated or seriously injured) it could be beneficial to have the extra person capable of helping out up front. Especially in a large cockpit like the 53's where most of us simply can't reach all the way from one side to switches on the far side of the other pilot, having someone else familiar with radio operation and some of the switchology, or at least being able to hold the aircraft straight and level, could be beneficial. Though I think if the situation is that bad then the guys in back are assholes & elbows too. Another good reason might be as a morale boost. I think an excellent reason is to give the CC/AO an understanding of just how sensitive the controls are in such a big ass aircraft. When the crew chief is calling the aircraft over a load for an external lift and wants the aircraft another 2' to the left, newer pilots can have a hard time not over or undershooting; it helps keep everyone's frustration level down when we all know just how hard a time the other guys are having (like the crew chief with his face in the hole getting balsted by sand trying to make those calls!).
- As Ballah said, there isn't any rank limitation for prior-enlisted officers. If I remember correctly, LtGen Dake was a mustang (former CG MCCDC, a few years back). Usually just comes down to how long the person wants to stick around. Things change though, and depending on when LRflip's family were in, there may have been incentives or limitations at that time for folks to get out if they didn't make a certain rank by a certain number of years. That occassionally happens in order to meet Congressionally mandated personnel levels. Limited Duty Officers (LDOs) are another case which is an off-shoot of CWOs, but that's a very small number of people and not worth a few more long sentences unless someone is REALLY curious.

Probably more information than most of you wanted or cared about...

S/F
Bender
 
Last edited:

Bender

Well-known member
Jun 8, 2004
159
0
Virginia
discopedro said:
A guy my wife and I know is a cwo2, don't really understand what that rank is.The guy is a West Point grad and flies Apaches. I always thought after you get out of the academy you're Lt and you progress from there. Maybe it's something to do with his choice to keep flying instead of moving up in rank? Can anyone help me understand a little better? Thanks

Being a USMA grad and being a CWO2 doesn't make sense to me, but I would take Chris's word regarding dropping the higher rank to keep flying. How old is the guy you and your wife know?
 

discopedro

Well-known member
Jul 16, 2008
812
0
las vegas,nevada
Bender said:
Being a USMA grad and being a CWO2 doesn't make sense to me, but I would take Chris's word regarding dropping the higher rank to keep flying. How old is the guy you and your wife know?

He's 34? I believe? He enlisted right out of high school and went rangers, airborne and then to WestPoint after 2 years enlisted. I remember the wife saying he did something to keep flying Apaches.