CB or FRS

[kennith]

Everyone ought to have something hand-held, because yelling over a winch is annoying.

Get yourself a pack of Talkabouts and be done with it. Any idiot can use one, and if you charge people ten bucks the first time it's issued you'll get your money back soon enough.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[stu454]

...we had 23 trucks along.

What the hell were you thinking?

I'd rather put my balls in a vice than go out with more than a dozen trucks; and that number is pushing it.

 

[fishEH]

What the hell were you thinking?

I'd rather put my balls in a vice than go out with more than a dozen trucks; and that number is pushing it.

Exactly. 5-6 trucks is the max I like to go.
23 trucks should have been split into 4 groups.

 

[Some Dude]

It was a dealership wheels event that I helped put together. We did split into two groups at lunch.

 

[stu454]

Understood.

BEED-A-BEEP

 

[D Chapman]

Blah blah blah

But, to sum it up, for trail use I have not yet found any considerable advantage of using ham radio - except for handhelds. FRS? meh. Kevin is right on the money here.

You can explain it deeply if you wish, but the simple fact is HAM is a much better option. It's so much clearer and easier to understand.

Bear hunters, coon hunters, etc.. folks who hunt from the seats of their trucks while dogs run around use HAM. If CB's were a better option, they'd use them. But they don't. They use HAM.

Short distances, long distances.... I've never had an issue communicating with HAM. I can sit at my house and talk to the guy on top of the mountain, 30 nautical miles away, with no problem. Very clear and loud. No static. And this is on simplex.

I had a Galaxy CB export radio. It was "turned up" to 50 watts. Power mic, Wilson whip antenna, clipped, tuned, tweaked......all that dumb shit. It would never talk as clear, and as far, as my HAM radio right out of the box. Hit the repeater and it only gets better.

Does a CB radio work just fine for trail riding? Sure it does. A CB radio is better than no radio. But it's no HAM.

FRS radios? Those things are worthless. I can yell farther than those things will transmit. Need to spot the douche bag in the wheeling group? Look for an FRS.

 

[Mike_Rupp]

Mike, I didn't expect an answer _this_ simplistic from you. Here's my take, Kennith-style; Mike W will likely respond in about a week with something "for Chrissake, a radio is a radio" (all in capital letters), and he will be right.

First, quality: both CB (AM) and 2-m ham (FM) use 10kHz bandwidth. It translates into roughly 4kHz of usable audio band, and therefore the quality should be the same. In absence of static, it _is_ the same - I'd even say I like my $40 CB unit better. Here goes "2 meter naturally sounds much better."

Next, range. A typical 2-meter mobile unit has 50W transmitter output, and the antennae are shorter (in terms of fraction of a wavelength) than CB - giving a ham mobile transmitter a huge advantage in power density (Watts per steradian). However, there are three disadvantages I can think of:
- 2m is much more of a line-of-sight communication band than 12m CB, although you can get pretty far on the fringes of diffraction/refraction pattern; you can get very long-range reception with a CB box and tuned 4" Firestik;
- narrower directional diagram of an antenna means more frequent loss of communication when your antenna is slanted (which happens off pavement) or your other party is at a significantly different elevation than you (which also happens);
- the noise figure of a receiver at 2-m band is typically worse than that at 12-meter.

I am not going to talk about the additional benefits of having a ham radio - like using the repeaters or APRS or [insert your particular joy of ham license].

But, to sum it up, for trail use I have not yet found any considerable advantage of using ham radio - except for handhelds. FRS? meh. Kevin is right on the money here.

Peter, you can get theoretical as you want, but it simply isn't true in practice. I had a CB for a while and I used a Firestik antenna and tuned it down to a pretty low SWR and it still just doesn't compare to a 2M rig right out of the box. I still can't even understand why you threw out the comment about it being possible of world wide communications. Who is even looking for that here? What's the use in having a radio that has the potential of world wide communications but still sucks balls at consistent, reliable communications at 1-5 miles?

One quick question: where the hell did you find a 4" Firestik? I used a 4' Firestik when I had a CB.

 

[p m]

Bear hunters, coon hunters, etc.. folks who hunt from the seats of their trucks while dogs run around use HAM. If CB's were a better option, they'd use them. But they don't. They use HAM.

Irrelevant. They use ham radios because they fit in their pockets; handheld CB is stupid.

Peter, you can get theoretical as you want, but it simply isn't true in practice.

Bad answer from an extra-class licensee.
And of course if was a four-foot Firestik, no need for hair-splitting.

 

[kennith]

FRS radios? Those things are worthless. I can yell farther than those things will transmit. Need to spot the douche bag in the wheeling group? Look for an FRS.

Yeah... He's a douche bag because he brought a toy to a fun park...

Just how fucking far should most people be expected to transmit on a trail? How clear does it need to be?

What could you possibly have to say that's so important, you expect everyone to have passed an exam before they reply?

"Turn the wheel left."

"Lunch is in an hour."

"I forgot my Kobe beef."

"Looks like rain."

Oh my god. That's some critical shit right there. Should I lend him a sat phone?

Trails are a hobby, not a profession.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[K-rover]

Yeah... He's a douche bag because he brought a toy to a fun park...

Just how fucking far should most people be expected to transmit on a trail? How clear does it need to be?

What could you possibly have to say that's so important, you expect everyone to have passed an exam before they reply?

"Turn the wheel left."

"Lunch is in an hour."

"I forgot my Kobe beef."

"Looks like rain."

Oh my god. That's some critical shit right there. Should I lend him a sat phone?

Trails are a hobby, not a profession.

Cheers,

Kennith

There is a place for both.. Personally I dont need more than an FRS since I only talk to the few guys on the trail directly infront or behind me.
If I lived in Alaska or even Montana I can see the need for long range communication.

 

[kennith]

There is a place for both.. Personally I dont need more than an FRS since I only talk to the few guys on the trail directly infront or behind me.
If I lived in Alaska or even Montana I can see the need for long range communication.

You are correct, and that is why more advanced mobile communication systems exist.

People go way overboard on trails, though.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Keanan]

This thread turned into a HAM fest too!

To answer your question, I don't know if one is better than the other all the time. I can say that in certain situations one could be better to use than the other.

With SCLR we mainly use FRS. You can't always hear each other and usually a battery dies at some point in the day. The advantages of FRS is that you can easily carry a spare, in case someone forgets theirs. Also they easily fit in a pocket so when you are trying to spot someone you can talk into it and give directions. Most of the time it falls between the seats or on the floor and they can't hear you anyway. It's nice to have hand held radios. Range on FRS is really variable, sometimes you can hear people from miles away, other times you can't even hear your group that is only 500 feet away.

I can't say much about CB. I just installed one in my D2, all I'm looking for is reasonably clear communication and about 1 mile of range. If I can get that I'll be happy with the CB. I don't plan on using it the traditional way very often. I am mostly just planning on using the PA setting and yelling at people.



If you are going to be with a bunch of new/different people every time you go wheeling FRS might be good. If you are going with the same 4-6 people each time CB might be better.

 

[kennith]

If you are going to be with a bunch of new/different people every time you go wheeling FRS might be good. If you are going with the same 4-6 people each time CB might be better.

True, Plus:

If you drive to a place where lesser forms of communication are likely to be ineffective, with fewer than four vehicles, each should be equipped with a properly sorted HAM system, as well as FRS for convenience.

In that event, though, everyone should already be aware of this, and proficient in use of the systems. That's not a practice trip.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[mbs13]

CB's are annoying when not tuned, you know this Fish.

 

[chris snell]

OK, looks like I missed the party on this one but here is my take.

My position is where I'm at after four years of guiding multi-day group trips to Utah.

If you don't have your ham ticket, you're not coming on our trip.

The effort required to get a ham ticket is so minimal and--thanks to the Chinese radio industry--the cost is so low, that if you don't have your ham ticket, that tells me that you weren't willing to do the small amount of preparation and cash outlay to make the trip a success. You've probably neglected other things, too, like your truck.

The other issue with CBs is that there are so many shitty, low-end options and there's no knowledge required. Someone with a ham ticket is going to know that they need to tune their antenna and minimize cable length to achieve good performance. The CB guy is much more likely to show up with some shitbox Walmart radio that barely works or sounds like garbage.

I'm rather surprised that Peter, of all folks, is coming out in favor of CB. Peter has his ham ticket and he's come on every Utah trip since we made them public. He went on the trip when we used FRS and spent half the time relaying messages up and down the truck column. He also came this year, when we used 2-meter and had great comms the entire time. We had virtually no interference, crystal clear audio, and great range.

 

[kennith]

I'm rather surprised that Peter, of all folks, is coming out in favor of CB.

I think he's coming from my direction, and suggesting that CB is enough for most trail rides.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[fishEH]

Chris I get what you're saying, and for large "epic" trips like you're speaking of I would agree that getting the HAM set up should be no big deal.
Sadly I live in the Midwest though and "epic" trips like that are few and far between. Most of our events are trips to off road parks or the UP of Michigan. So my goal is to have the once-a-year wheelers grab a CB/FRS and hook it up for minimal time/cost.

 

[Mike_Rupp]

The radio waves don't know the difference between the upper peninsula of Michigan and Utah. That's a lame excuse.

Here's the way I view having a radio transceiver in the car. You have two options: handheld or a mobile radio that's installed in the vehicle. The handheld options are a easy way to try to communicate between two vehicles. CBs suck nads, FRS are ok for trips that are close together and handheld HAM radios are better, but still aren't that great. Batteries die.

Then you have the option of a radio that's wired in: CBs and HAM. Installations suck. You have to get power from the battery to inside the truck and then you have to get the antenna coax back outside the vehicle. The installation takes time and effort. I just don't understand why if someone if going to take all that time and effort to plan out the installation and then actually do it wouldn't just spend a little extra time and money to get a HAM radio, which also has the benefit of being able to use repeaters & APRS.

Let's take a look at the cost difference:

COBRA CB radio: $40 for a cheap piece of shit
Firestik 4' kit: $55

HAM Radio: $130 Yaesu FT-1900R
CometSSB1 antenna: $37
Coax and Mount: $15

Obviously this isn't a apples to apples comparison since the Cobra is a low end piece and the Yaesu is a highly reputable brand (most likely it's still made in Japan; my Yaesu HT and 857 are both made in Japan). The cost difference for between the two is less than $100. Add in a hamtestonline membership and the actual exam fee is an additional $40. Big fucking deal.

"So my goal is to have the once-a-year wheelers grab a CB/FRS and hook it up for minimal time/cost." CB isn't a minimal time install. Go ahead and buy FRS.

 

[Mike_Rupp]

I'm rather surprised that Peter, of all folks, is coming out in favor of CB. Peter has his ham ticket and he's come on every Utah trip since we made them public. He went on the trip when we used FRS and spent half the time relaying messages up and down the truck column. He also came this year, when we used 2-meter and had great comms the entire time. We had virtually no interference, crystal clear audio, and great range.

Having never met Peter, he strikes me as the type of guy who likes to do the most with the least. CB is theoretically a decent form of communication. I say theoretically because you have to actually have a decent radio, which most people don't, and a properly installed and tuned antenna, which most people don't. Assuming that you've done everything right, you still have to rely on the other guy to have done the same. When I had CB installed on my previous Disco, I had the Cobra 75 model that allowed for a minimalist installation (no big fucking unit, everything was contained in the handpiece). For all I know, that thing sucked balls and if I had a big rig trucker special everything would have been peachy.

The difference with 2M ham is that it's really hard to fuck up. Buy a radio, connect the wires directly to the battery and mount the antenna in a decent spot. DONE.

 

[Some Dude]

I still have a big-rig-trucker-special 4' Firestick hanging off my back door. I haven't used it in over a year. This thread may be the catalyst to its removal.

Having never met Peter, he strikes me as the type of guy who likes to do the most with the least.

:applause: