D90 Downhill Woes

[landrovered]

Maybe the hills are steeper in Illinois than they are in Georgia?

 

[peter sherman]

The point to this post was to figure out why this guys Defender was not slowing down while driving down hill in 1st gear in low range. This was not intended to be a conversation about using an under-drive or crawl box. My point was correct; an automatic LR in 1st gear in Low Range should travel down a reasonable steep hill, on dirt or gravel, at about 5 miles per hour. This truck would be completely controllable without using much braking. This had nothing to do with rocks, ruts, ledges or a 70 degree hill, that is an entirely different conversation.

Concerning my truck with 4.11 gears, driving on my 33” tires, the wheels spin faster than they do with my 35” tires. That was my point. The 4.11 gears with 35” tires the gear ratio is closer to the stock configuration.

I am sorry but the thread is not about you

I have both a D110 & 2 disco's & what I am saying is they both will descend differently. Yes he should be able to descend in 1 lo but not the same as a stick... If you have a shitty engine shitty trans big tires & stock gears all can contribute to a poor descent.


Posting this for a friend. He has a 1994 D90 which the PO had the manual tranny replaced for a stock LR auto tranny. The problem he is having is when he goes downhill in D, 4Hi or 4Lo the D90 has no slowing power so he has to ride the brakes. I thought maybe it has something to do with the tranny swap or is this a common occurrence and easy fix? Thanks guys.

He should get something! so he gets nothing-free wheeling downhill?

 

[MUSKYMAN]

So are all the brainiacs here really saying that an autobox in first low will not rev and control the speed of the vehicle? Is that what I am reading here?

Get real, a properly functioning automatic will act just like a manual transmission as long as it does not shift to a higher gear. If it does shift to a higher gear then something is wrong with the transmission.

this is just laughable...you really dont know what you are talking about here.

get real is right...you need to because you have no clue about off-roading and the way different equipment performs.

automatics need really low gears in the ball park of 100-1 to equal the engine braking of a stick that has say around 50-1

if you need a example look at the choice to add HDC to latter land rovers. this was to let a computer modulate the brakes because the average ED dosent know how to.

The point to this post was to figure out why this guys Defender was not slowing down while driving down hill in 1st gear in low range. This was not intended to be a conversation about using an under-drive or crawl box. My point was correct; an automatic LR in 1st gear in Low Range should travel down a reasonable steep hill, on dirt or gravel, at about 5 miles per hour. This truck would be completely controllable without using much braking. This had nothing to do with rocks, ruts, ledges or a 70 degree hill, that is an entirely different conversation.

Concerning my truck with 4.11 gears, driving on my 33” tires, the wheels spin faster than they do with my 35” tires. That was my point. The 4.11 gears with 35” tires the gear ratio is closer to the stock configuration.

the first post was about someone with a auto box Defender that was not able to control the speed on down hills. It was later said that he was using low range and had shifted it into first gear. This tells us that he is at the limits of the engine braking that the auto box will provide and the answer from there is to learn how to modulate the brakes to control speed.

your comment about speeds and gears was just wrong and I corrected you...you can claim what ever you like you clearly dont understand how gear ratios affect the trucks you claim to know so much about.

Maybe the hills are steeper in Illinois than they are in Georgia?

well I have been wheeling for a pretty long time and have wheeled all kinds or terain so the location argument is pretty stupid

just like in skiing you need to know different techniques, the snow plow works on the bunny slopes but will get you killed on the real steep shit.

so I guess in the end its pretty clear you guys need to get off the bunny slopes

 

[landrovered]

Musky, your a dick.

1st low ratio automatic is 31.80:1 (97 D90)
1st low ratio manual is 42.37:1 (95 D90)

Where the fuck are you getting this 100:1 bullshit.

I will admit that the automatic will travel at a higher rate of speed than a manual on the same incline but the difference when translated into rpms is not that great; the auto will turn 1500 rpms and the manual 2000 rpms at the same speed or if the rpms are the same then the difference in speed would be 1.54 mph.

Maybe you should go into the lodge and get a hot rum toddie and leave the black diamond shit to us.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

Musky, your a dick.

1st low ratio automatic is 31.80:1 (97 D90)
1st low ratio manual is 42.37:1 (95 D90)

Where the fuck are you getting this 100:1 bullshit.

I will admit that the automatic will travel at a higher rate of speed than a manual on the same incline but the difference when translated into rpms is not that great; the auto will turn 1500 rpms and the manual 2000 rpms at the same speed or if the rpms are the same then the difference in speed would be 1.54 mph.

Maybe you should go into the lodge and get a hot rum toddie and leave the black diamond shit to us.

oh so you turn to insults when you argument falls apart.

I was saying that to get engine breaking like a stick at 50-1 you need a auto to be geared at about 100-1...that is a correct statement

its not bullshit...go outside the rover world and ask question of people using auto's to crawl tough terain and using engine braking and they will tell you the same thing.

so because a rover auto trans truck is only about 40-1 you then have to learn how to modulate the brakes to control your speed further.

You are just a poser with a stupid blog that thinks because he has a 110 he is a off-road god, but your posts tell the true story. You dont know what you are talking about and only know the little you have learned online or the clearly tame trails you run.

where are all the other people stepping in to tell me I am wrong and that auto trans will crawl just as well as a stick on steep down hills? well they are not stepping in because you and your buddy poser #2 are just wrong.

here some more tech to steer this in a good direction:

auto's dont need as low of gears to climb because the torque converter acts as a increased gear reduction unit as it multiplies torque. the problem is that it does not work both ways. Without torque imput from the engine the torque converter will not change its effective ratio. this is why left foot brake modulation will allow it to climb and decend slower because the engine torque against the brakes causes the TC to chnage effective ratios.

once again this is very limited and once the terain gets steep enough that the crawl ratio of the truck cant control the speed you are back on the brakes to control speeds.

some trucks actually have a way around this but it does not work well in a rover. In H1 hummers you can shift the trans into reverse and use the torque converter to slip the truck down hills. as the truck goes to fast you impart a small amount of throttle to slow the truck . this creates tremendous amounts of heat and caused many failures of the early trucks but was one of the training techniques used when they first went into service.

 

[landrovered]

I wheel both auto and manual transmissions. They both slow your decent when used properly. Your posts make it sound like anyone without HDC or a manual gearbox will have to rely on brakes alone if they do not have 100:1 gearing in the auto gearbox. I say bullshit.

I don't give a rats ass whether you think I am a poser or worthy of your web wheeler know it all opinion. You could drive the entire rubicon backwards and it would not mean shit to me. Your still a dick.

What does owning a 110 have to do with anything other than qualifying me to give my opinion on the Defender board?

I backed up my opinion with the ratios and did the math, your response is calling me a poser and telling me what the H1 does to overheat the transmission. Thanks that was very informative on a Land Rover forum.

Dolt.

 

[peter sherman]

not sure if this will work
section 44 page 11

ZF
11 FAULT DIAGNOSIS
SYMPTOM 10 - None or harsh engagement of
direct drive clutch
NOTE: The direct drive clutch will only
engage if 4th gear is engaged at 40 to 45
mph.
Carry out road test pressure check with gauge
connected to torque converter.
oe Normal pressure
FAULT - Failed direct drive clutch
oe Pressures correct but remains high
FAULTS POSSIBLE -Direct
drive clutch and torque converter
control valve stuck
Hysteresis valve stuck
Direct drive clutch control valve stuck
SYMPTOM 11 - Direct drive clutch shift point
incorrect or at low speed
NOTE: Direct drive clutch engagement at
low speed will cause vibration in the
torque converter
Carry out mainline and torque converter pressure
check
oe Normal pressure
FAULT - Governor valve sticking
oe Low or incorrect pressure
FAULTS POSSIBLE -Direct
drive clutch and torque converter
control valve sticking.
Hysteresis valve stuck.
Direct drive clutch control valve stuck.
SYMPTOM 12 - Drives in ?D? but immediately
upshifts to 3rd
FAULT - 2nd to 3rd shift valve stuck.
SYMPTOM 13 - With ?D? selected vehicle starts in
2nd
FAULTS POSSIBLE -1st
and 2nd shift valve stuck.
Governor sleeve sticking.
SYMPTOM 14 - With ?D? selected vehicle starts in
3rd
FAULTS POSSIBLE -1st
to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd shift valves stuck.
Governor sleeve sticking.
SYMPTOM 15 - No kickdown 4th to 3rd
FAULT - 4th to 3rd kickdown valve stuck.
SYMPTOM 16 - Upshifts/downshifts and kickdown
shifts at incorrect road speeds
Check throttle kickdown cable adjustment
Carry out main line pressure check
oe Normal pressure
FAULT - Governor valve sticking
oe Incorrect pressure
FAULTS POSSIBLE -Incorrect
throttle valve adjustment
Primary regulator sticking
SYMPTOM 17 - No upshifts at light throttle
FAULTS POSSIBLE
Governor valve sticking
Shift valves sticking
SYMPTOM 18 - No engine braking ?3? selected 3rd
gear
FAULT - Clutch ?C?
SYMPTOM 19 - Delayed or no downshift occurs
when making a manual selection from ?3? to ?2?
FAULTS POSSIBLE -2nd
and 3rd upshift valve sticking.
Governor valve sticking.
?2? Position interlock valve sticking.
SYMPTOM 20 - At speeds below 28 mph when
making a manual selection from ?2? to ?1?,
downshift is delayed or does not occur
FAULTS POSSIBLE -Governor
sticking.
1st to 2nd shift valve sticking.
?1? Position interlock valve sticking.
SYMPTOM 21 - ?1? Selected 1st gear no engine
braking
FAULT - Clutch brake 3
SYMPTOM 22 - ?2? Selected 2nd gear no engine
braking
FAULT - Clutch brake 1
SYMPTOM 23 - Vehicle drives forward in ?N?
FAULT - Clutch ?A? stuck

 

[MUSKYMAN]

I wheel both auto and manual transmissions. They both slow your decent when used properly. Your posts make it sound like anyone without HDC or a manual gearbox will have to rely on brakes alone if they do not have 100:1 gearing in the auto gearbox. I say bullshit.

yes they both slow your decent, but once you get passed the point that the auto box can control your speed you need to use the brakes...thats what I have said and thats what the OP needs to answer his question.

you saying that he should just be fine with the engine braking when he allready is not is just ignorant. you have not given any advice on how to deal with the situation you have just said it should work. Pretty clear its not working.

What does owning a 110 have to do with anything other than qualifying me to give my opinion on the Defender board?

yes opinion...and in the tech section opinion can cause people problems. Your opinion seems to not address the fact that this guy must be wheeling steeper stuff then you because he is not able to control his speed with engine braking alone. Get it yet?

I backed up my opinion with the ratios and did the math, your response is calling me a poser and telling me what the H1 does to overheat the transmission. Thanks that was very informative on a Land Rover forum.

yeah see once again you look like a idiot because you see another brand and close your mind. Kyle once said something that fits here. it went something like "some people started here with rovers others have ended up here"

I shared that information to allow people a deeper understanding of how auto transmissions work. I have been doing this stuff a long long time. I have owned,driven and worked on all kinds of 4x4's. that gives me alot of insight into what is at play. allthough there are a number of rover posers like you out there trying to make people think everything is different in a rover the truth is that the same comcepts and techniques apply accross all 4x4's, some of those techniques are more important in one make then another because of things like gearing ,weight distribution, available torque and installed equipment. But in the end you still use the same knowledge base across all makes.

so to be clear and direct about the OP.

when you are using a rover with a auto trans and you are in low range in 1st gear and the terain is to steep too allow engine braking alone to control your speed you need to learn how to modulate your brakes to control the speed. I use the word modulate because you still need to prevent the tires from locking and causing the truck to slide.

go ahead poser idiot come back again and tell me I am wrong

 

[landrovered]

Ok wise ass how in the fuck would you know the degree of the angle of what I have been wheeling? Or the degree of the slope that the OP was wheeling? Did he give you the angle?

In the original post he said it was in "D".

In subsequent posts he said that being in "1" or any selection made no difference.

I pointed out that the transmission should slow the vehicle to some degree IF IT IS WORKING PROPERLY.

You are assuming that it is working and point to the superiority of manual tranmissions.

How do you know that the transmission is working properly?

You do not.

But that does not stop you from beating your chest and calling everyone a bunny slope poser does it.

Who is the idiot here?

 

[MUSKYMAN]

Ok wise ass how in the fuck would you know the degree of the angle of what I have been wheeling? Or the degree of the slope that the OP was wheeling? Did he give you the angle?

here is how I know

if you really wheeled tough stuff you would know the limits of the auto as far as engine braking goes. the reason I know this is because I do wheel really steep stuff and know that you need to be using ALOT of brakes to control the speed. others chimed in as well about the need for alot of braking to control speed.

you show your ignorance over and over.

Get real, a properly functioning automatic will act just like a manual transmission as long as it does not shift to a higher gear.

See I have read your posts, reading peoples posts over a period of time gives you insight into how much they really know.
this post shows that you dont know what these trucks do on really steep stuff.

 

[landrovered]

Wow! Musky has diagnosed the OP's transmission condition just by reading my posts.

Un-fucking-believable, I will pray to the rover gods that one day my dick might be as big as yours.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

Wow! Musky has diagnosed the OP's transmission condition just by reading my posts.

Un-fucking-believable, I will pray to the rover gods that one day my dick might be as big as yours.

no I never mentioned or diagnosed a transmission problem...please quote me.

see back to attacks because you have nothing of merit to add:applause:

 

[peter sherman]

Wow! Musky has diagnosed the OP's transmission condition just by reading my posts.

Un-fucking-believable, I will pray to the rover gods that one day my dick might be as big as yours.

red where is your diagnosis to the OP's post

 

[landrovered]

For ease of diagnosis I would do the following.

1. Compare the behavior of the transmission to another LR automatic on the same terrain.

If it is the same then it is a problem with the driver getting to know their equipment and should adjust driving style.

If it is not, then pull out the Rave and go throught the tests to determine what the fault is with the transmission.

Pretty simple.

No name calling involved.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

If it is the same then it is a problem with the driver getting to know their equipment and should adjust driving style.

.

and what adjustments to driving style would you say he would need to make?

 

[robertf]

downhill is the only thing i miss about wheeling a manual.

 

[landrovered]

Did I ever say that I don't use brakes on steep downhill decents? I don't believe that I said that I don't and guess what, I modulate them when I use them.

But the OP said this "has no slowing power so he has to ride the brakes"

When I decend, my engine does have slowing power, on some slopes depending on conditions, it can be sufficient to navigate the terrain. On other steeper slopes, brakes are necessary and used judiciously. On super steep slopes with ample run out, brakes would not be recommended.

Having NO slowing power might suggest a mechanical fault or driver error, such as decending in "D" or some gear other than "1".

 

[MUSKYMAN]

so now you agree with me that if engine braking isnt enough to control the speed you need to modulate the brakes.:applause:

it really is to bad that you cant idle down things in a auto like you can in a stick truck...but you cant unless you were to gear it way way down...like 100-1 or so and thats been my point all along.

in a auto you need to know how to modulate the brakes.

 

[peter sherman]

If it is not, then pull out the Rave and go throught the tests to determine what the fault is with the transmission.

ah I posted them

 

[landrovered]

Glad you are feeling all warm and fuzzy.

"No, he has it in 1st when in 4lo, I just meant that pretty much any position of the tranny will take off and still not slow down."

Take off and not slow down is the key here. This suggests that the truck is not revving or slowing the decent to me.

You made the assumption that the incline exceeded the ability of the engine to brake the vehicle.

I suggested that the engine should slow the vehicle to some extent if it the tranny is working properly.

Perhaps the question to the OP should have been "What are the rpms of the engine on the decent"

That would have shed more light on the subject since the angle of the incline is as of yet unknown.

Last January we were wheeling in the snow in the mountains of NC, it was ice under about 5 inches of snow. It was a very good experience to teach people not to overuse their brakes going down hill. If you allowed the engine to slow you then it was tricky but navigable. If you got on the brakes then you started sliding faster and faster. There were some anxious moments but we got all of the trucks down without incedent. I was glad to be in the manual truck.