Do any DII steering boxes self center?

lwg

Well-known member
Just curious if any DII steering boxes will self center, even when new? I think I've worked out all the kinks in my steering by basically replacing everything except the box... I had to adjust out some of the steering play in the process. Now, and before I think, I can literally be in the middle of a turn, let go of the steering wheel and it will "hold the course", i.e. not re-center.

Is this normal. Surely my steering box is OK? No leaks or anything just this weird problem.
 

Discotec

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2006
483
0
Glenwood, N.B. Canada
Self centering, i thought was a combination of castor, camber and toe in or out ie: front end geometry, I guess a steering box that has a hang up could throw all of this off but generally speaking the steering box dosn't just self center
 

Loydster

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
685
1
true trac the front and it will self center. BTW loving the skid plate. thanks
 

lwg

Well-known member
Discotec said:
Self centering, i thought was a combination of castor, camber and toe in or out ie: front end geometry, I guess a steering box that has a hang up could throw all of this off but generally speaking the steering box dosn't just self center

All good points. I guess I'm wondering why my truck doesn't and suspect I had to tighten down the box a little too much to take out play. It actually takes a little work to turn, not a one finger thing or anything like that.

Should probably just consider a new steering box soon I guess...
 

gmookher

Well-known member
Oct 30, 2004
5,201
0
Grand Canyon State
Upon replacement of my tie rod ends, and ends on the drag link, my steering tightened up alot. Running open diffs on the street.(ARBs) I wouldnt say it tends to turn in either direction and yes it tends to 'likes' center, but less so now after RTE3 lift and 33's than when stock tho.

If I let go in the middle of a turn it does tend to return to center
 
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Discotec

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2006
483
0
Glenwood, N.B. Canada
lwg said:
All good points. I guess I'm wondering why my truck doesn't and suspect I had to tighten down the box a little too much to take out play. It actually takes a little work to turn, not a one finger thing or anything like that.

Should probably just consider a new steering box soon I guess...

If you had to tighten up the sector adjustment to take slop out of the steering system, i suggest you look at the following items.

1. the spline on the universal that connects to the steering box (notorious for slipping)

2. all tie rod ends and anything else that is part of the steering system (i don't have RAVE in front of me)

3. If this fails to yield results, then yes, the steering box could be FUBAR but i doubt it, most of them just leak fluid........


I didn't notice but is yours a stock lift system? If it isn't then you are into a different ball game

Good luck with it........:patriot:
 

JohnB

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2007
2,295
12
Oregon
Yes it should come back to the middle. If you took out the slop by adjusting your steering box(you probably over-adjusted it). I'd readjust your box and go get a good steering alignment.
 

MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
8,277
0
OverBarrington IL
steering recenters because of CASTOR...thats it.

when you lift a radius arm front suspension you reduce castor and loose that recentering force.

DII's dont have much castor stock, I am willing to bet thats by design.

My wife like the fact her DII steers easily and because middle aged women are the prime targets land rover was after I am sure thats why they designed them to not have alot of castor to overcome.

larry...how much lift are you running?

there are some castor corrected radius arms in the fore sale section.
 

MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
8,277
0
OverBarrington IL
well then you would be wrong...go out a google it and check what I say out you will see that caster is what creates centering force.

now I didnt google it because I actually have been doing this for a long time but go do some fast research...you will see.:D
 

MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
8,277
0
OverBarrington IL
here let me save you the trip...LOL

http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html

THE EFFECTS OF CASTER

Caster is the angle to which the steering pivot axis is tilted forward or rearward from vertical, as viewed from the side. If the pivot axis is tilted backward (that is, the top pivot is positioned farther rearward than the bottom pivot), then the caster is positive; if it's tilted forward, then the caster is negative.

Positive caster tends to straighten the wheel when the vehicle is traveling forward, and thus is used to enhance straight-line stability. The mechanism that causes this tendency is clearly illustrated by the castering front wheels of a shopping cart (above). The steering axis of a shopping cart wheel is set forward of where the wheel contacts the ground. As the cart is pushed forward, the steering axis pulls the wheel along, and since the wheel drags along the ground, it falls directly in line behind the steering axis. The force that causes the wheel to follow the steering axis is proportional to the distance between the steering axis and the wheel-to-ground contact patch-the greater the distance, the greater the force. This distance is referred to as "trail."

Due to many design considerations, it is desirable to have the steering axis of a car's wheel right at the wheel hub. If the steering axis were to be set vertical with this layout, the axis would be coincident with the tire contact patch. The trail would be zero, and no castering would be generated. The wheel would be essentially free to spin about the patch (actually, the tire itself generates a bit of a castering effect due to a phenomenon known as "pneumatic trail," but this effect is much smaller than that created by mechanical castering, so we'll ignore it here). Fortunately, it is possible to create castering by tilting the steering axis in the positive direction. With such an arrangement, the steering axis intersects the ground at a point in front of the tire contact patch, and thus the same effect as seen in the shopping cart casters is achieved.

The tilted steering axis has another important effect on suspension geometry. Since the wheel rotates about a tilted axis, the wheel gains camber as it is turned. This effect is best visualized by imagining the unrealistically extreme case where the steering axis would be horizontal-as the steering wheel is turned, the road wheel would simply change camber rather than direction. This effect causes the outside wheel in a turn to gain negative camber, while the inside wheel gains positive camber. These camber changes are generally favorable for cornering, although it is possible to overdo it.

Most cars are not particularly sensitive to caster settings. Nevertheless, it is important to ensure that the caster is the same on both sides of the car to avoid the tendency to pull to one side. While greater caster angles serve to improve straight-line stability, they also cause an increase in steering effort. Three to five degrees of positive caster is the typical range of settings, with lower angles being used on heavier vehicles to keep the steering effort reasonable.





Like a shopping cart wheel (left) the trail created by the castering of the steering axis pulls the wheels in line.
 

lforgue8

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2006
1,216
0
MA
MUSKYMAN said:
well then you would be wrong...go out a google it and check what I say out you will see that caster is what creates centering force.

now I didnt google it because I actually have been doing this for a long time but go do some fast research...you will see.:D

x2 caster is the only measurement to dictate centering. toe in or out dictates steering feel and effects tire wear if not setup but not centering
 

MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
8,277
0
OverBarrington IL
http://www.hunter.com/pub/undercar/2573T/index.htm

Steering Geometry and Caster Measurement
Reprinted with permission from the SAE Technical Paper Series

850219

Daniel B. January
Hunter Engineering Company
Bridgeton, Missouri

ABSTRACT

Caster of a steerable vehicle wheel is defined herein to be relative to the thrust line of the non-steerable wheels. This incorporates caster into the “total alignment” concept. A method of measuring caster in accordance with this definition is derived. The restrictions, limitations, and accuracy of the method are investigated, and practical implementation procedures are suggested.

THE PURPOSE OF THIS PAPER is to define the caster angle of a steerable vehicle wheel to be referenced to the thrust line of the non-steerable wheels. A further purpose is to derive and characterize an optimal method of measuring caster which can be implemented in a practical manner.

Recent years have seen the development of the “total alignment” concept, which relates the toe angles of the steerable vehicle wheels to the thrust line of the nonsteerable wheels. Increased sophistication of vehicle suspension systems has made this more important, while advances in alignment measurement instrumentation have incorporated the concept and assumed the corresponding computational burden.

Referencing caster to the thrust angle is part of the total alignment concept, but caster of a steerable wheel is difficult to measure. It is the angle between the vertical and the projection of the invisible steering axis onto a vertical plane containing the thrust line of the vehicle. It is not easy to attach measuring devices to a projection of an invisible axis. Indirect measurement methods are available that are very accurate, if they are implemented properly and certain restrictions are observed.

REFERENCING CASTER TO THE THRUST LINE

Caster has been defined as follows:

“6.2.1 Caster Angle – The angle in side elevation between the steering axis and the vertical. It is considered positive when the steering axis is inclined rearward (in the upward direction) and negative when the steering axis is inclined forward.” (1)*

* Numbers in parentheses designate references at end of paper.

Positive caster tends to produce a stable steering system by generating counterbalancing torques about the steering axes as the wheels roll. The torques vary as the steer (toe) angles change. An equilibrium condition exists when the steer angles of the wheels remain constant with no driver-applied torque to the steering wheel. Ideally, the front wheels steer the vehicle in a straight line in this “neutral steer” condition.

Left and right caster must be equal for this condition to occur, other factors being equal. However, the straight line direction of travel is the thrust line of the nonsteerable rear wheels. If the thrust angle of the rear wheels is altered, the neutral steer direction of the front wheels no longer coincides with the thrust line. See Figure 1. The vehicle then rolls in a circle unless the driver steers the front wheels by applying a torque to the steering wheel. The vehicle “pulls” to the side.

Clearly caster must be defined relative to the thrust line. This is easily done:

Caster Angle – The angle, in side elevation PARALLEL TO THE THRUST LINE OF THE NON-STEERABLE WHEELS, between the steering axis and the vertical. It is considered positive when the steering axis is inclined rearward (in the upward direction) and negative when the steering axis is inclined forward.

This improved definition brings caster measurement in accord with the total alignment concept, where individual toe angles are referenced to the thrust line of the rear wheels.
 

Discotec

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2006
483
0
Glenwood, N.B. Canada
Ok musky man I'm not about to get into a pissin match with a 4000 poster but you are wrong in saying castor onlycontrols the centering effect of the steering box.........best regards....
 

Mongo

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
5,731
2
59
Discotec said:
Ok musky man I'm not about to get into a pissin match with a 4000 poster but you are wrong in saying castor onlycontrols the centering effect of the steering box.........best regards....


So...EXPLAIN...
 

MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
8,277
0
OverBarrington IL
sorry...no energy to edgamacate you tonight.

but I have explained this over and over here for years.

search king pin inclination here on discoweb and you will see.

Discotec said:
Self centering, i thought was a combination of castor, camber and toe in or out ie: front end geometry, I guess a steering box that has a hang up could throw all of this off but generally speaking the steering box dosn't just self center

see you thought ...as in not sure you know

not to be to cocky but I have a very complete knowledge of steering geometry and what factors interact to provide different condition that you may want to increase or decrease based on what you are trying to accomplish.

off-road, on road, autocrossing,open wheel been there done that and steering is steering and the basics have not changed.

so argue all you like , think what you want:rolleyes:

I know and I know the information I shared was spot on:victory:
 

MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
8,277
0
OverBarrington IL
Discotec said:
Ok musky man I'm not about to get into a pissin match with a 4000 poster but you are wrong in saying castor onlycontrols the centering effect of the steering box.........best regards....


oh and just to be clear...please quote me

its the button on the lower right side

because I never said that caster only controls the centering effect of the steering box.

see that would be incorrect.

infact with enough caster the steering box could be disconnected and the wheels would still go straight.:D

ok enough fun for one day:smilelol: