England Terror Killing Today

[mgreenspan]

True. The details are on the radio and tv over here. Apparently when they tried to use the gun on the police when they finally charged it back fired because it was rusty and blasted one of the guys thumbs off before they got blasted by the police sniper.

Another witness on the news just said he was going over to them, crossed the street to confront,saw the gun and then went back and started telling random on the street to get inside shops. Police say 14 minutes from start to finish.

Something about the two guys being known to MI something or other but I don't know what they said.

 

[brian4d]

Brian4d YOU DON'T GET IT and it's a shame. We've had our share of disagreements before and I am not going to replay them here. You obviously have a lot more time to waste than I. Do the rest of us a favor and buy a plot (and I do mean JUST a plot of land) at the Citadel in Idaho where you can live out your gun toting dreams with RB and the rest of you itchy trigger fingered types.

Say what you will because I know you have an abundance of time to post. You're probably getting Federal support (or maybe you're really just unemployed) in your business since you can afford to spend so much time here on the bulletin boards with your nonsense but I'm unsubscribing from this thread. I've made my point and I've made up my mind.

Good grief, really Paul?

You actually made me feel a little bad with this post. I just enjoy the conversation. I don't use facebook so I do spend my extra time on a few boards. What's with the insults? This is why I don't use social media, didn't ever think it would creep over to the boards. Thanks.

 

[Rover Mac]

You guys should get all the facts before you try to mentally piece together what happened and arm chair quarter back the people involved. The guys had a gun. What are unarmed people supposed to do about that. My understanding is they demanded to be filmed not people just started filming. A regular joe has no obligation to not give into a terrorists demands if his or her life is threatened.

The scene was confusing from eye witness accounts who initially thought it was just a man getting hit by a car. Several people thought when the men were hacking away that they were trying to help. Yes some people did nothing but that happens everywhere so get real. And unarmed police were on the scene early on but can't do anything with armed perpertrators(they had a revolver). So if you have to wait for armed police of course it will take a while.

Pople did do things. Several women covered the victims body with their own to stop them from doing more. Another woman scout leader talked with one of the men in an attempt to have him give up his weapons and calm the situation.

The whole thing is terrible but guns in the hands of the public would not have prevented it like you said. That should not be the focus of this issue.

Agreed,
People did react to try and "calm " the situation and help the victim. The situation was confusing, and is supposedly the first incident of this type in the UK.
A shoot out between armed civilians (not realistic in the UK ) and terrorists in a busy street would have endangered everybody in the area.
Local police waited for armed police knowing suspects were reportedly armed. It would appear that the terrorists were waiting for the police to respond , and an unarmed police office would have been another victim.

 

[ukoffroad]

the only news bit I heard yesterday was very preliminary but painted a very different picture (NPR on my way home) glad to hear people responded. I still would have enjoyed driving over them

atriot: Steel bumper>knife.

 

[RBBailey]

You guys should get all the facts before you try to mentally piece together what happened and arm chair quarter back the people involved. The guys had a gun. What are unarmed people supposed to do about that. My understanding is they demanded to be filmed not people just started filming. A regular joe has no obligation to not give into a terrorists demands if his or her life is threatened.

The scene was confusing from eye witness accounts who initially thought it was just a man getting hit by a car. Several people thought when the men were hacking away that they were trying to help. Yes some people did nothing but that happens everywhere so get real. And unarmed police were on the scene early on but can't do anything with armed perpertrators(they had a revolver). So if you have to wait for armed police of course it will take a while.

Pople did do things. Several women covered the victims body with their own to stop them from doing more. Another woman scout leader talked with one of the men in an attempt to have him give up his weapons and calm the situation.

The whole thing is terrible but guns in the hands of the public would not have prevented it like you said. That should not be the focus of this issue.

Yeah, I would agree for the most part. The scene was weird by any measure, and I'm merely judging by what I see in the photos and in the initial accounts. My initial post is an observation in a singular direction, on purpose -- which is why I posted the story of the lady who did confront them as a balance.

However, I'm trying to figure why a gun carrying citizen being in the area could be a bad thing. We can't say one way or another whether this would have saved the life of the victim, but... I guess I am not understanding the vibe coming from several DWebbers regarding CC permits. I look at this scene as one of those situations which is exactly why CC permits exist -- to protect one's self, and other innocent people. Making the argument that people should be allowed to have CC permits and weapons is not the same thing as calling for a lawless society of gun toting individuals with no training or oversight.

Oversight... regulation... seems to be a bad word these days among gun advocates. The 2nd Amendment starts with the idea that the Militia should be well Regulated. We, the armed citizens, are the militia. In some way, I see the 2nd Amendment not so much as stating a right, but more that it gives us a responsibility. We have the responsibility to protect and defend the weak and innocent as well as the Constitution. This is what the 2nd Amendment is for, and it is why it was written. In some way, the 2nd Amendment demands gun ownership of the populace.

Therefore, I am one of those who believes we should have very open gun rights, but that to own a gun you should be trained and be willing to submit to some kind of regulation as far as who gets to exercise their right with a firearm. Gun control should not be about limiting normal, even automatic, guns; gun control should be about who gets those guns.

But the gun lobby is full of distrust. Distrust in the government in regards to the 2nd Amendment does not need to be a wacko, backwoods, uni-bomber type of distrust. The type that is way too overblown in almost all ways in which it is interpreted. But maybe it could be a healthy distrust of the government's ability to properly protect us. A distrust borne of the fact that it takes 20 minutes for an armed officer to respond to open, public murder. After all, although the first Continental Militias were arguably set up for the eventual opposition to the Crown; practically, they were set up because the American Colonists had lost faith in the British Army's ability to protect the Colonists from the Indians and the French and whatever other eventuality they normally would have been tasked with preparing for.

 

[Mike_Rupp]

Ben, language evolves over time, as I'm sure you are aware. The term well regulated in the 1780's meant something completely different than today. It didn't mean that there were to be many government regulations with respect to militias. The term meant something in proper working order. The way we think of the term regulation today is completely inconsistent with the entire bill of rights.

 

[Nargun]

Just an observation

The woman who stood there holding the phone and trying to talk the killer down, or the women who went to the body to assist and prevented further mutilation, showed more balls than all the keyboard warriors with their guns (and freudian threats/dreams) on here

 

[ukoffroad]

I would agree, I was not aware of their story when the news first broke.

 

[knewsom]

I agree there was a lot of courage shown after such a horrible act - too bad it didn't happen near a pub filled with drunken angry football fans.

 

[kennith]

Just an observation

The woman who stood there holding the phone and trying to talk the killer down, or the women who went to the body to assist and prevented further mutilation, showed more balls than all the keyboard warriors with their guns (and freudian threats/dreams) on here

Part of the issue is frustration, man.

It's not all about keyboards, and it's not surprising that someone would want to point out how they could have made a difference.

Gun owners have two arguments: We have the right to own firearms, and we can use them to stop threats.

Nobody listens to anything else we say.

Meanwhile, people who do not like firearms can invent any number of arguments, and there isn't much we can do about it. They stand atop tragedy and proclaim the evil of our ways; and they can do this because we weren't there at the time.

The wildest proclamation we can offer is our potential of assistance, and whenever it's made, it is indeed treated as very wild. This is opposed to contentions that firearms are the bane of civilization, in a world that would be perfectly fine if we simply put them away.

So, when an event happens that a person with a firearm could have altered for the better, of course he's tempted to say so, even if he may have first tried a different solution in that event.

We aren't advocating vigilante justice or a revival of the mythical west. We simply suggest that if someone had only been there, things might have turned out differently, or perhaps the tragic event may never even have occurred at all.

It's not a fantastical suggestion.

How harmful in the face of an armchair empire can a mere quarterback possibly be? We have opinions too, you know.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[mgreenspan]

Part of the issue is frustration, man.

It's not all about keyboards, and it's not surprising that someone would want to point out how they could have made a difference.

Gun owners have two arguments: We have the right to own firearms, and we can use them to stop threats.

Nobody listens to anything else we say.

Meanwhile, people who do not like firearms can invent any number of arguments, and there isn't much we can do about it. They stand atop tragedy and proclaim the evil of our ways; and they can do this because we weren't there at the time.

The wildest proclamation we can offer is our potential of assistance, and whenever it's made, it is indeed treated as very wild. This is opposed to contentions that firearms are the bane of civilization, in a world that would be perfectly fine if we simply put them away.

So, when an event happens that a person with a firearm could have altered for the better, of course he's tempted to say so, even if he may have first tried a different solution in that event.

We aren't advocating vigilante justice or a revival of the mythical west. We simply suggest that if someone had only been there, things might have turned out differently, or perhaps the tragic event may never even have occurred at all.

It's not a fantastical suggestion.

How harmful in the face of an armchair empire can a mere quarterback possibly be? We have opinions too, you know.

Cheers,

Kennith

All valid points. This situation is not a good example for gun anything in my opinion from what I've heard on the radio and seen on TV over here. Today on the radio I listened to another witness who drove past with his wife on their way home and saw the wrecked car then what looked like a man attempting to resuscitate an injured person(actually hacking). After they got home a few blocks they went back out to see if they could help in some way with what they thought was a traffic accident. As soon as they saw the gun they backed off and went and stopped some kids from turning a corner and heading that way they warned people to get away. What could a gun have done. They only attacked one person. The deed was done before people realized what even happened. The women who covered the soldiers body were just preventing more damage. An armed citizen could have just made him go crazy or would have just straight up murdered him. There are so many possibilities and this situation is really not a good example of citizens being armed for self defense.

What we should be talking about is how to end extremism and how different religions should shun their extreme elements. Or maybe immigration?

 

[brian4d]

There is a vast difference between gun owners with their CCP and patrons without a gun. The playing field is leveled. With the closest police 10-30 minutes away you now have a law abiding citizen who is equal in the eyes of the offender. We can't discount this, it could have gone very wrong and more people could have died if someone pulled a gun on those monsters OR vise versa. Every gun owner I've ever met welcomes the ability for this level field, in some cases yearn for it.

My CCP instructor said, "The only way for a 115lbs female to protect herself from a 250lbs man seeking to inevitably rape her is a gun." This stuck with me. After looking around I took note that 23 of the 30 person class were women. As I sat in class I took a moment to think about the stories those women would tell and what prompted them to show up in this class. It was quite sobering. Along the same lines I often wonder how different 9/11 would have turned out if flight crews carried weapons on the flight deck, unfortunately we'll never know... What I do know is that you can't help yourself (or others) if you don't try. Leveling the playing field gives you the opportunity to try.

As for 'keyboard warriors' - - - I implied I could have saved the day, in retrospect that was wrong. What I did have was the ability to save the day, big difference. Basically, a much better likelihood of standing up to those men than anyone else there at that moment. I wasn't there and I wasn't involved so I'll never know. Those people did the right thing and it turned out well. I'm very surprised those men didn't kill more. Calmer, collective thoughts prevailed.

 

[Nargun]

I?m a grey haired old fart and natural born cynic.

Any post where somebody tells me of their ?bravery? or untested actions in any situation, the Wanker factor detector fires up.

These posters are trying to impress only themselves, because the Wanker factor detector immediately dismisses what their saying.

These women have stood up to murderers, they have walked the walk.

Pull out an imaginary gun in another country (been there or even owned a passport?) and fire away.

Moving electrons is cheap; these women could have paid a lot more.

Walk the walk versus dream the delusion.

Just as an aside, check out the UK homicide rates and those of firearm deaths and compare it to the USA.

How many murders, rapes or armed robberies (offences against the person) have you stopped with your armoury? I won?t ask you to prove it.

 

[Devildog01]

Just an observation

The woman who stood there holding the phone and trying to talk the killer down, or the women who went to the body to assist and prevented further mutilation, showed more balls than all the keyboard warriors with their guns (and freudian threats/dreams) on here

You should "observe" a self inflicted gun shot wound to the head.

 

[brian4d]

I’m a grey haired old fart and natural born cynic.

Any post where somebody tells me of their “bravery” or untested actions in any situation, the Wanker factor detector fires up.

These posters are trying to impress only themselves, because the Wanker factor detector immediately dismisses what their saying.

These women have stood up to murderers, they have walked the walk.

Pull out an imaginary gun in another country (been there or even owned a passport?) and fire away.

Moving electrons is cheap; these women could have paid a lot more.

Walk the walk versus dream the delusion.

Just as an aside, check out the UK homicide rates and those of firearm deaths and compare it to the USA.

How many murders, rapes or armed robberies (offences against the person) have you stopped with your armoury? I won’t ask you to prove it.

Our constitution is a direct reflection why we all don't have English accents today. I'm sure an 'old fart' such as yourself can comprehend this. For the record, we defended it twice.

Not Bravery, rather, understanding ones morals, values, character and acting upon.

Before predicting who's on the other end of the keyboard you might want to do some statistical research yourself.

 

[Nargun]

Lol

 

[mgreenspan]

Just as an aside, check out the UK homicide rates and those of firearm deaths and compare it to the USA.

You should really look at what the data shows. I guess if you think that death and homicide are the only things affected by guns then you will always think that their existence is a terrible thing.

 

[kennith]

I?m a grey haired old fart and natural born cynic.

Any post where somebody tells me of their ?bravery? or untested actions in any situation, the Wanker factor detector fires up.

These posters are trying to impress only themselves, because the Wanker factor detector immediately dismisses what their saying.

These women have stood up to murderers, they have walked the walk.

Pull out an imaginary gun in another country (been there or even owned a passport?) and fire away.

Moving electrons is cheap; these women could have paid a lot more.

Walk the walk versus dream the delusion.

Just as an aside, check out the UK homicide rates and those of firearm deaths and compare it to the USA.

How many murders, rapes or armed robberies (offences against the person) have you stopped with your armoury? I won?t ask you to prove it.

You have not displayed cynicism. That's not the word you should be using.

As for the rest of your post, it's not entirely applicable around here.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[rovercanus]

Good grief, really Paul?

You actually made me feel a little bad with this post. I just enjoy the conversation. I don't use facebook so I do spend my extra time on a few boards. What's with the insults? This is why I don't use social media, didn't ever think it would creep over to the boards. Thanks.

Because when you don't have a logical argument, you must resort to insults to get your non-point across.

 

[brian4d]

Because when you don't have a logical argument, you must resort to insults to get your non-point across.

I thought his post was bizarre. That's the best word I can think of.


You make a good point.