ETC vs. Lockers

[tightgroup]

Well we were having a nice discussion on lockers and ETC.

Do you need lockers to assist the ETC system ? And why ?

IMHO ETC with mechanical lockers or CDL is nonsense. Some seem to disagree that ETC can be well assisted with CDL and or lockers.

So whats your opinion on this and lets see if we can keep the debate technical and civil.

Please chime in,

TG

 

[frickjp]

Proactive.
Reactive.

 

[LandCruisers4Life]

Limited Slips / Lockers

When you use Limited Slips in a vehicle that DOES NOT have ETC, you must modulate the brake pedal while depressing the accelerator. That transfers (MOMENTARILY) power from the tire which has lost traction, to the tire which has more traction.

When you have a vehicle which has ETC, this is the same, only better than that I just described above. The vehicles computer does all the brake modulation etc. There is NO NEED for a Limited Slip with Electronic Traction Control, and ETC doesn't help a limited slip to 'work better', and running a Limited Slip in a vehicle with ETC is worthless because the Limited Slip does nothing as the ETC takes control and does it itself.

LOCKERS essentially spool both your axles together inside the differential to deliver 100% power to both tires. When two differential locks are used - front and rear, then you have 4 wheel drive. True 4 wheel drive. Now as well, to keep 50% of your power/torque to the front, and 50% to the rear, you must have a Center differential lock.

That's about as clear as you can get. If you have a vehicle equipped with ETC, then you will be wasting your money on Limited Slips for your Rover. To get the best traction, you must go with a Real LOCKER. ARB is by far the best Locker out there, and can be turned on for 100% traction, or off for street driving.

 

[SCSL]

ARB is by far the best Locker out there

opcorn:

 

[rover4x4]

ARBs have to many weak points that are potentially prone to failure, Detroit lockers are the best.

 

[gmookher]

running a Limited Slip in a vehicle with ETC is worthless because the Limited Slip does nothing as the ETC takes control and does it itself.

This is not true. Adding LSD to a rover DOES help it even with ETC.

Its true, I lost use of my locker after a branch snaged and ripped my brittle blue plastic line.

Those of you who feel ARB lockers are unreliable need to:

a-not use the blue line supplied and utilize an aftermarket hose for air delivery
b-run a sound oba solution (this means regulators, telfon tape and good wiring)

There is nothying wrong with running a detroit as a rear diff IF thats what you want/budget to do but its still not the same as a selectable locker

I dont care for LSD on a rigg you may crawl rocks with so me personally, I'd find a ARB up front and a detroit in the back acceptable but thats me.

Still I feel the dual arb setup is the best.

YMMV, but I seen a d2 with dual trutracs and I am confident arbs offer better torque distribution than an LSD

 

[Mongo]

If you have a vehicle equipped with ETC, then you will be wasting your money on Limited Slips for your Rover

And you say this what experience? Ever drive a truck with ETC and limited slips? It's not a waste of money, actually, it's a great combo. Never let me down, even with the ETC/ABDS system not working, which happens a lot with trucks.

To get the best traction, you must go with a Real LOCKER.


Wrong, just wrong. Your saying a LSD doesn't work. sometimes I wish I didn't do the the toy axle swap, that way I could show you that a dual TT set-up is just as capable as a dual ARB set-up. I drvien past guy's, stuck, becasue they had to stop and turn on the ARB.

ARB is by far the best Locker out there, and can be turned on for 100% traction, or off for street driving

That's just your OPINION. It's not the best, is it good, yes, but a truck with dual TT's. or a TT/Detriot will perform just as well a one with dual ARB's.

Just because you put a LSD or LOCKER in, may make the truck more capable, but doesn't mean the driver is any better. Driver skill is 90% of off-road driving. I've driven past and recovered trucks with dual ARB's because the driver had no clue how to pick a line, or handle getting over the obstacle.

I'd love to have a little comp at the National Rally this year and have 4 trucks:

stock, open diff's cdl only
dual arb's
dual tt's
TT/detriot

drivers drive each truck, over same obstacle, what ya wanna bet on who win's...

 

[p m]

Limited Slips / Lockers

When you use Limited Slips in a vehicle that DOES NOT have ETC, you must modulate the brake pedal while depressing the accelerator. That transfers (MOMENTARILY) power from the tire which has lost traction, to the tire which has more traction.

it's not like you "must" modulate the brake pedal, but it helps immensely.
That transfers torque to the tire that has more traction not momentarily, but as long as you keep the pressure on the brake pedal.

When you have a vehicle which has ETC, this is the same, only better than that I just described above. The vehicles computer does all the brake modulation etc.

now, that's the only correct statement here.

There is NO NEED for a Limited Slip with Electronic Traction Control, and ETC doesn't help a limited slip to 'work better', and running a Limited Slip in a vehicle with ETC is worthless because the Limited Slip does nothing as the ETC takes control and does it itself.

Do you know the difference between a statement and an explanation (or proof)?
If you and TG think ETC alone does everything, you either don't own a vehicle with ETC, or don't wheel it. I've watched an open-diff'ed D2 in Moab, and while ETC took it to all the places everyone else made, it was by far and large the most painful thing to watch.

LOCKERS essentially spool both your axles together inside the differential to deliver 100% power to both tires. When two differential locks are used - front and rear, then you have 4 wheel drive. True 4 wheel drive. Now as well, to keep 50% of your power/torque to the front, and 50% to the rear, you must have a Center differential lock.

This is about as incorrect, technically, as it can get.
There are about two statements about differentials that are correct:
- an open differential splits torque between the axle- (or drive-) shafts 50%/50%, and
- a locked differential forces the axle- (or drive-) shafts to spin at the same rate.
FWIW, if your Rover drives on a straight line on pavement with the center differential OPEN (assuming tires are of the same size), both power and torque are split evenly between all four wheels. It is nearly the ONLY situation for which equal split of torque and power happens.

That's about as clear as you can get.

You just happened to give a perfect example of what I had a discussion about with theDude. Someone speaking with a perceived sense of knowledge and authority, but most statements made between incomplete and plainly wrong.

Now, I'm not debating at all which is better - to each his own.

 

[Mongo]

:applause:

You just happened to give a perfect example of what I had a discussion about with theDude. Someone speaking with a perceived sense of knowledge and authority, but most statements made between incomplete and plainly wrong.

Now, I'm not debating at all which is better - to each his own.

 

[LandCruisers4Life]

If you have a vehicle equipped with ETC, then you will be wasting your money on Limited Slips for your Rover

And you say this what experience? Ever drive a truck with ETC and limited slips? It's not a waste of money, actually, it's a great combo. Never let me down, even with the ETC/ABDS system not working, which happens a lot with trucks.

To get the best traction, you must go with a Real LOCKER.


Wrong, just wrong. Your saying a LSD doesn't work. sometimes I wish I didn't do the the toy axle swap, that way I could show you that a dual TT set-up is just as capable as a dual ARB set-up. I drvien past guy's, stuck, becasue they had to stop and turn on the ARB.

ARB is by far the best Locker out there, and can be turned on for 100% traction, or off for street driving

That's just your OPINION. It's not the best, is it good, yes, but a truck with dual TT's. or a TT/Detriot will perform just as well a one with dual ARB's.

Just because you put a LSD or LOCKER in, may make the truck more capable, but doesn't mean the driver is any better. Driver skill is 90% of off-road driving. I've driven past and recovered trucks with dual ARB's because the driver had no clue how to pick a line, or handle getting over the obstacle.

I'd love to have a little comp at the National Rally this year and have 4 trucks:

stock, open diff's cdl only
dual arb's
dual tt's
TT/detriot

drivers drive each truck, over same obstacle, what ya wanna bet on who win's...

Why don't you just go on over to SCARR where one of my South Texas Rovers members will be this year, with dual ARB air lockers?

My post is based upon 20 years of wheeling experience. A properly set up ARB'd vehicle is nearly unstoppable in the right persons hands, and PLEASE don't try to compare a weak excuse for a diff like the Limited Slip to a LOCKER. No comparison, and that's not my opinion, that's just FACT. Come to SCARR and find out for yourself. Bring your Limited Slip rig to face off against ARB.

 

[LandCruisers4Life]

This is about as incorrect, technically, as it can get.
There are about two statements about differentials that are correct:
- an open differential splits torque between the axle- (or drive-) shafts 50%/50%, and
- a locked differential forces the axle- (or drive-) shafts to spin at the same rate.
FWIW, if your Rover drives on a straight line on pavement with the center differential OPEN (assuming tires are of the same size), both power and torque are split evenly between all four wheels. It is nearly the ONLY situation for which equal split of torque and power happens.

.

I had to respond to this retarded comment. When you LOCK a Center Differential, you are splitting the power and torque 50/50 between the front and rear drive shafts. When you have an Open Center Differential, your rover runs with about a 70/30 split. 70 being to the rear if you didn't get that.

Before you put your foot in your mouth again, call your rover mechanic, or just call Bill Burke and I am sure he will be enough to satisfy you.

 

[gmookher]

My post is based upon 20 years of wheeling experience. A properly set up ARB'd vehicle is nearly unstoppable in the right persons hands

well said, I agree with you

I am not sure if I agree with those who say the same about trutracs, but as evidenced, we're gonna need a challenge at this years rally

last year, the wall at poukisie gulch where my d2 with dual arbs made it and my video footage captured many other dicos without dual arbs that didnt make clearly evidences this but those of you who have other 'beliefs' hey thats all fine with me

 

[Mongo]

I never said a truck set-up with ARB's won't perform,what I asked was if ever driven one with TT's. And also stated how wrong you are about the set-up and how they function on a truck with ETC. so have you driven one?
Get off the sopabox that it's the greatest all traction aid ever, I found in my 20 years of doing this that DRIVER SKILL is more important than was under ther truck...by the way Gem, I have a jeep with a ARB/Detroit set-up, actually tried a ARB in the rear, and found that the detriot was a better device to have in the rear. And yes, I drove it snow......so neither you or this guy need to explain anymore about the a ARB, just show what experience you have with OTHER traction devices...

 

[gmookher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6FMtOAvUnM&feature=related

at 4:20 into the clip I make my attempt in a d2 with arbs front and rear
at 6:20 another d2 with dual trutracs makes an attempt, you can hear the diffs ratchet ineffectively
at 7:40 another rigg with arbs attempts with sway bar connected, so no I am not saying just adding arbs is a holy grail

of all the rigs that DID make it up NONE had trutracs, FWIW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeTlORokMGc&feature=related
at 2:20 you can hear the trutracs ratcheting, I think they require a bit more throttle and momentum
I follow going slower

mongo youre right, I dont know jack schitz, thanks for your edumacation, i should have gotten trutracs instead of my arbs?

I know you can go anywhere in trutracs that i can go with full lockers

I execute my right to disagree, i am happy to wheel in my lockers, and some of you are very happy to wheel in your trutracs and there is nothing wrong with either

we've had this conversation before, havent we?

 

[LandCruisers4Life]

I never said a truck set-up with ARB's won't perform,what I asked was if ever driven one with TT's. And also stated how wrong you are about the set-up and how they function on a truck with ETC. so have you driven one?
Get off the sopabox that it's the greatest all traction aid ever, I found in my 20 years of doing this that DRIVER SKILL is more important than was under ther truck...by the way Gem, I have a jeep with a ARB/Detroit set-up, actually tried a ARB in the rear, and found that the detriot was a better device to have in the rear. And yes, I drove it snow......so neither you or this guy need to explain anymore about the a ARB, just show what experience you have with OTHER traction devices...

Nothing wrong with a Real DETROIT LOCKER - except the fact that you cannot UNLOCK it and it causes a bunch of excess drivetrain wear while driving on the street. Been there done that guy in my old Toyota.

Why would I want to drive a Rover or Cruiser with limited slips when I could just put in lockers front and rear? If you're going to all the work to pull out your third member etc, then I see limited slips as a waste of time.

Obviously some on this board don't have enough brains in their head to understand what I said earlier about using limited slip devices with ETC - they do the same thing, but the ETC does it better. ETC does not 'help' a limited slip. However if people want to believe that bullshit, they can keep on doing so.

 

[Slappy]

opcorn:

x2

Steve

 

[p m]

I had to respond to this retarded comment. When you LOCK a Center Differential, you are splitting the power and torque 50/50 between the front and rear drive shafts. When you have an Open Center Differential, your rover runs with about a 70/30 split. 70 being to the rear if you didn't get that.

Before you put your foot in your mouth again, call your rover mechanic, or just call Bill Burke and I am sure he will be enough to satisfy you.

No, no, and yet again, no.
If Bill Burke says so, it doesn't mean it is true.
Regurgitating what somebody said does not make it right. 20 years of wheeling experience, as it seems, doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.
It is very simple physics, really.

 

[thomaskimura]

Obviously some on this board don't have enough brains in their head to understand what I said earlier about using limited slip devices with ETC - they do the same thing, but the ETC does it better.

You're saying ETC is better than limited slip?

Wow.

 

[LandCruisers4Life]

No, no, and yet again, no.
If Bill Burke says so, it doesn't mean it is true.
Regurgitating what somebody said does not make it right. 20 years of wheeling experience, as it seems, doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.
It is very simple physics, really.

Uh, I didn't regurgitate anything. I stated FACT, and I said you could check me with reliable resources, like LAND ROVER, or Bill Burke since so many feel he is an authority. The FACT here is you are an idiot, and I don't need to further speak with you on this subject since you ideas about things are based on your opinions, and not facts. When you speak of physics, you must be speaking theoretical - your own theoretical physics. Go back to school.

 

[LandCruisers4Life]

You're saying ETC is better than limited slip?

Wow.

ETC is better than running a Limited Slip because ETC does the same thing but faster because it is computer driven.