F150 Lightning

DiscoHasBeen

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Aug 7, 2016
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If the diesel you are putting in your vehicle that you drive on the roadways is red you aren't paying certain taxes you should be. Pretty simple, red is farm/off road use only.
 
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Blueboy

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Apr 20, 2004
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Back in the USA; Rockwood, PA
If the diesel you are putting in your vehicle that you drive on the roadways is red you aren't paying certain taxes you should be. Pretty simple, red is farm/off road use only.
Depends by State. In PA where I live one can register a pick-up as a Farm Vehicle and be exempt from road use tax legally. Do some use farm diesel in their non Farm trucks? Only the scalawags.
 

DiscoHasBeen

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Aug 7, 2016
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Depends by State. In PA where I live one can register a pick-up as a Farm Vehicle and be exempt from road use tax legally. Do some use farm diesel in their non Farm trucks? Only the scalawags.
My understanding is that red diesel is not to be used in a vehicle driven on the road period.

Unlike “clear diesel” (which is clear of dye), off-road diesel is not intended for road vehicles. The fuel product is designated specifically for equipment often used in farming activities or construction. Dyed diesel can be used with heavy machinery, generators or refrigerated trailers, among other purposes. There should be no loss in engine performance using either dyed or clear diesel. But before you try to circumvent taxes by using it in road vehicles, keep in mind that doing so is illegal. Law enforcement can check your vehicle’s fuel tank for traces of the dye, and laws pertaining to misuse of the fuel product include hefty fines or even jail time depending on the number of infractions.

Off road diesel is designated only for vehicles and equipment that do not operate on public roads and highways
 
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discostew

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Sep 14, 2010
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Northern Illinois
I think around here a farmer can drive tracters and hay wagons, combines, all that stuff. It always has to have that orange triangle hanging on the back of it. Those probably burn the red diesel fuel. I don't know if the pickup trucks can be registered that way. I can tell you I don't know any farmer that has his daily driver truck registered like that. But I think that farm diesel is generally a better grade fuel than you can buy out of the pump. So that alone would make me think theres a lot of farm trucks that burn the stuff but don't admit it.
 

DiscoHasBeen

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Aug 7, 2016
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I think around here a farmer can drive tracters and hay wagons, combines, all that stuff. It always has to have that orange triangle hanging on the back of it. Those probably burn the red diesel fuel. I don't know if the pickup trucks can be registered that way. I can tell you I don't know any farmer that has his daily driver truck registered like that. But I think that farm diesel is generally a better grade fuel than you can buy out of the pump. So that alone would make me think theres a lot of farm trucks that burn the stuff but don't admit it.
I'd say they overlook farmers that travel public roads with combines/planters, etc. Register your DD as farm equipment and putting dyed diesel in it would most likely be frowned upon.
 

DiscoHasBeen

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Aug 7, 2016
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But I think that farm diesel is generally a better grade fuel than you can buy out of the pump. So that alone would make me think theres a lot of farm trucks that burn the stuff but don't admit it.
The last post by me quoted an article that noted no difference between dyed and not. Take my word for it, no farmer worries about performance, only cost.
 
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DiscoHasBeen

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Production and delivery of the first trucks is scheduled for spring 2022 with fully-loaded luxury models priced as high as $90,474.
 

Blueboy

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Apr 20, 2004
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Back in the USA; Rockwood, PA
My understanding is that red diesel is not to be used in a vehicle driven on the road period.

Unlike “clear diesel” (which is clear of dye), off-road diesel is not intended for road vehicles. The fuel product is designated specifically for equipment often used in farming activities or construction. Dyed diesel can be used with heavy machinery, generators or refrigerated trailers, among other purposes. There should be no loss in engine performance using either dyed or clear diesel. But before you try to circumvent taxes by using it in road vehicles, keep in mind that doing so is illegal. Law enforcement can check your vehicle’s fuel tank for traces of the dye, and laws pertaining to misuse of the fuel product include hefty fines or even jail time depending on the number of infractions.

Off road diesel is designated only for vehicles and equipment that do not operate on public roads and highways
As I said, it is ok in PA as registration is a Farm Vehicle.
And seriously doubt in rural W. PA. a cop is going to check what diesel fuel the Amish have in their truck. We ain’t city folks out here.
 

eburrows

Well-known member
Production and delivery of the first trucks is scheduled for spring 2022 with fully-loaded luxury models priced as high as $90,474.

Total cost of ownership is an interesting discussion. I'd personally not go for the chrome-plated-steering-wheel version, but say $70k:

My D2 has 330k miles on it, and cost me $34k in 2000. Figure average gas price is $3.50 (I'm in CA), that's 34000+(330000/13 mpg * 3.5) = $130k. The adjusted-for-inflation initial cost would be more like $51k, but we can estimate aggressively.

For the same distance, I'd estimate that the F150 would cost about half as much in "fuel". Likely even less initially, but electricity prices will probably go up over time.

I'd also guess that the F150 would have a significantly lower maintenance cost. Fewer major surgeries, and much lower fluid/brake change costs.

It gets pretty fuzzy, but the TCO for a internal combustion engine vehicle is much higher than it's sticker price. In my case, it's about 4x. I'd guess that electric is more like 1.5-2x over the vehicle lifetime.

There are a million studies out there, like the one below, but you have to look at your specific case IMO.
 

DiscoHasBeen

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Total cost of ownership is an interesting discussion. I'd personally not go for the chrome-plated-steering-wheel version, but say $70k:

My D2 has 330k miles on it, and cost me $34k in 2000. Figure average gas price is $3.50 (I'm in CA), that's 34000+(330000/13 mpg * 3.5) = $130k. The adjusted-for-inflation initial cost would be more like $51k, but we can estimate aggressively.

For the same distance, I'd estimate that the F150 would cost about half as much in "fuel". Likely even less initially, but electricity prices will probably go up over time.

I'd also guess that the F150 would have a significantly lower maintenance cost. Fewer major surgeries, and much lower fluid/brake change costs.

It gets pretty fuzzy, but the TCO for a internal combustion engine vehicle is much higher than it's sticker price. In my case, it's about 4x. I'd guess that electric is more like 1.5-2x over the vehicle lifetime.

There are a million studies out there, like the one below, but you have to look at your specific case IMO.
True that no fuel cost, but if you keep it long enough you are replacing batteries and I'd bet they don't give those away.
 

eburrows

Well-known member
True that no fuel cost, but if you keep it long enough you are replacing batteries and I'd bet they don't give those away.

Well not "no" fuel cost, but electricity costs much less than gasoline per mile traveled.

And I figure once you have to replace the battery, it's time for an EV to be recycled. By then (10+ years) battery tech will be leaps-and-bounds ahead again. Prices and charge times will have fallen dramatically, and capacity will have gone up. Charge station standards will likely have progressed as well.
 

mgreenspan

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Feb 28, 2005
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Briggs's Back Yard
A pick-up EV (electric vehicle) is the only one I would buy; so I can put a diesel powered generator in the bed to make it go.
Just an FYI for this pipe dream. It'll still take you a day of running the generator to charge up your vehicle to drive and multiple tanks of gas/diesel in the generator. And you likely can't use any random generator you've bought so it'll probably be expensive to get the right one.

Tesla vehicles automatically reject most generators if the sine wave of the generator's electrical output isn't "pure". So right there you're looking at most generators not meeting the requirements(this is assuming Ford uses the same protective technology or similar that Tesla uses). Stable power source for charging is required. While the pickup offers "offroad" capability, the reality is that it will never be an "offroad" vehicle due to the nature of electric vehicle charging infrastructure.

A gallon of gas in a generator will get you around 15 miles of driving into your electric vehicle. Hardly worth the effort and puts quite the damper on the idea of offroading across the US in an electric vehicle and avoiding charging stations. These electric pickups are probably targeting the independent contractor pickup market who want to "go green" and get the write-off benefits of an all electric fleet.
 

eburrows

Well-known member
While the pickup offers "offroad" capability, the reality is that it will never be an "offroad" vehicle due to the nature of electric vehicle charging infrastructure.
I agree it doesn't make much sense to carry a generator and fuel in EVs, but I disagree that EVs will _never_ be offroad capable. It all comes down to expectations.

The electric F150 seems to weigh about 6500lbs, and have a 300 mile range. For me, in So. Cal, that means: no sand dunes, and a high-speed charger no more than ~200 miles away. That still leaves most of the deserts and mountains fully accessible. There are even 18 charging stations in Furnace Creek in Death Valley.

The charging infrastructure you mention is growing like crazy right now. Given the rising cost of hydrocarbons, and the inefficiencies of piping/trucking it all over the country compared to stringing wires, I think electrification will continue to accelerate.
 

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