Front output Shaft, Bearing, Flange play, new Driveshafts, axle angles.

[kris812]

So I heard some noise and viberations on Deceleration at 75 mph coming from the front end. Got home and I shaked the drive shafts to find the 'front output' kinda loose like the flange was "wobbling". So upon lots of reading on here I was under the impression the front output bearing was bad, maybe the flange was worn, maybe the nut was loose. SO I WENT TO TOWN ON IT!!

First off, that 30mm Jesus nut on the flange was just that.. I had to "jump" on a long breaker bar AFTER heating the nut up to glowing red and burning the insides out.. Must have been ~500 ft pounds to brake that puppy loose.. I took a piece of angle iron and mounted it to the flange to have my brother stand on that as well as a counter.. We are NO wimps, that nut was tight AF! 145k on clock and probably never been off..

Rented a slide hammer and tools I didn't need. I ended up using the Flange itself to bang out the Shaft and bearing against the nut, didn't expect that to go so well.. Froze the shaft in the freezer and set the bearing in the 100F AZ sun. Then tapped it down on the shaft on the inner race. Then froze the whole shaft and bearing, and it FELL into the transfercase, no tapping or pressing needed. Put on the circlip, new seal and new flange! Troqued the Nut to 120# maybe a little more because after doing 500# to get it off; 120# felt like Childs Play.

Drum roll and the results of ALL my work: OLD flange had 0.005" play measured with Micrometer; after changing EVERYTHING there same 0.005" or 5 thousandths play.. Man am I a happy camper.. New seal now at least! I REALLY wish this exceptable play was listed SOMEWHERE.. I dug through EVERY Rave manual I could find and every form said "no play"..

So NOW I guess I am shopping for a Double Cardon front drive shaft.. 2" lift and 3deg radiaus arms are installed.. Reading both TW and GBR shafts each have their own issues and faults.. ALWAYS SOMETHING..

Anyhow posting for others to comment on if this play is normal or if I possibly have a bad output shaft? Looked Great! sharp teeth and all..

Edit:
As requested in another reply elsewhere, I am going to list the parts used in this:

Front output Bearing: STC1130
Front Output Flange: STC3432

Total 2023 cost 60$ ebay shopping with NOS OEM flange
Total time: 4 hours with dinner and lots of brakes and sweat; 1-2 hours if the Nut had played nicely, with most time spent freezing parts and making a pair of needle nose plyers for the circlip.

 

[StangGT5]

Those front output bearings do go bad, so your work was not entirely in vain. I bought everything need to replace the one in my D2 forever ago as preventative maintenance, but haven't got around to it.

Not that you will ever want to do this job again, but a good electric impact should do the job way better than a breaker bar. I learned that almost a decade ago. I also use drilled/slotted angle iron for holding flanges. If the nut/shaft is rusted, heat may still be required.

EDIT: To add, I have used TW driveshafts without issue. Any aftermarket HD shaft will be heavier and may induce more vibrations, especially on high mileage truck. I have only heard good things about GBR, but have no experience with them.

 

[kris812]

Those front output bearings do go bad, so your work was not entirely in vain. I bought everything need to replace the one in my D2 forever ago as preventative maintenance, but haven't got around to it.

Not that you will ever want to do this job again, but a good electric impact should do the job way better than a breaker bar. I learned that almost a decade ago. I also use drilled/slotted angle iron for holding flanges. If the nut/shaft is rusted, heat may still be required.

EDIT: To add, I have used TW driveshafts without issue. Any aftermarket HD shaft will be heavier and may induce more vibrations, especially on high mileage truck. I have only heard good things about GBR, but have no experience with them.

Very true, and it wasn't like I was putting the old bearing back in once I was that deep lol; and hey one new Rover part at a time is a blessing am I right?! Besides the nut, and getting driveshaft off; it really wasn't that big of a job..

The FIRST thing I tried was to hit it with our biggest air hammer on high pressure, then heat and then uggadugga's; all it was doing was spitting out shinny pieces of the nut.. Clearly mine was seized on somehow.. To note: I put Blue locktight back on it because, yeah its a Jesus nut.

Thank you for the input on the Front shafts! Yeah the extra weight worries me a little, plus the extra centering ball to worry about in the future. Plus feedback on both having to "rebalance" or send the them back for replacements is a little offputting. To note: My front most UJ is a little tight on 1 axis and may be my issue all along, waiting for new UJ and nuts to come in the mail.

I have always had a 45mph vibration after lifting it. Figured it was the Factory 30-45 degree offset clocked front driveshaft that has never quite fully made sense to me. Anyone have experience with the eBay/amazon 140$ shafts that are clocked properly?? Tempting to try, but clearly this straight to angle driveshaft setup, requires a Dual Cardon Joint as the D2's got them.

The 75mph decel vibration in OP was quite terrifying to a mechanical mind to hear and feel.. Wishful hoping new UJ's fixes this.. Still testing driving on REAR ONLY

 

[terryjm1]

I have a 3 inch lift with caster correction radius arms on one of mine. I had to lower the sway bar as well. I was fortunate to purchase a used double carden driveshaft from a member here. I don’t know if it is TW or GBR but it is definitely HD compared to the stock shaft. I have only had it up to about 65mph but I don’t notice any vibration.

I also have another D1 with a 2 inch lift and stock radius arms. I have no problems with the stock driveshaft. I was surprised how much that extra inch made such a difference.

On my double carden the joints do not have grease fittings and the seals are split on some of the caps. I was planning to change the u-joints (myself) down the road a bit. On sending the driveshaft back to have the u-joints replaced, is that recommended by TW and or GBR?

 

[kris812]

I have a 3 inch lift with caster correction radius arms on one of mine. I had to lower the sway bar as well. I was fortunate to purchase a used double carden driveshaft from a member here. I don’t know if it is TW or GBR but it is definitely HD compared to the stock shaft. I have only had it up to about 65mph but I don’t notice any vibration.

I also have another D1 with a 2 inch lift and stock radius arms. I have no problems with the stock driveshaft. I was surprised how much that extra inch made such a difference.

On my double carden the joints do not have grease fittings and the seals are split on some of the caps. I was planning to change the u-joints (myself) down the road a bit. On sending the driveshaft back to have the u-joints replaced, is that recommended by TW and or GBR?

It's very possible I am sitting at a 3" lift as I have TF medium springs and not much extra weight on it. I also have dropped the sway-bar down 1.5" to clear on full extension (probably need to go down more with an HD shaft); After installing the caster correction arms, as it tilts the front axle down a fair bit. It drove much better at speed with the Arms but then the vibrations started. Fix one issue, get another!

Is it possible that the double carden shaft that you have is the Dorman 938-210 OE FIX driveshaft? I came across it in my searching and I like it other than the NO zerk fittings even on the extension. But it is a special order AutoZone part with a lifetime warranty for all that is worth.

When you rebuild the shaft I recommend you also rebuild the centering ball or have a shop do it. UJ's are fairly easy to do, centering balls might require a press or replacement part. I would try to do it myself first though.

 

[terryjm1]

“Is it possible that the double carden shaft that you have is the Dorman 938-210 OE FIX driveshaft? I came across it in my searching and I like it other than the NO zerk fittings even on the extension. But it is a special order AutoZone part with a lifetime warranty for all that is worth.”

It could be. However, it has an adapter on the transfer case end. It also has a grease zerk on the extension but not on the u-joints The u-joints are much larger than the OEM shaft. It looks more like the GBR on their website but I haven’t seen the adapter on any of them. I guess it could be a small driveline shop build.

The Dorman does seem like a good deal and the lifetime warranty is nice.

 

[rovercanus]

But it is a special order AutoZone part with a lifetime warranty for all that is worth.

Some things you don't want to use the warranty on. Don't cheap out, get the Tom Woods. The only time I've replaced a centering ball is on a stock drive shaft. Refreshing the 2 Tom Woods driveshafts didn't need centering balls.
If you can rebuild a double cardon drive shaft, you can rebuild a centering ball. No press or special tools needed.

 

[_ExpeditionMan]

So I heard some noise and viberations on Deceleration at 75 mph coming from the front end. Got home and I shaked the drive shafts to find the 'front output' kinda loose like the flange was "wobbling". So upon lots of reading on here I was under the impression the front output bearing was bad, maybe the flange was worn, maybe the nut was loose. SO I WENT TO TOWN ON IT!!

First off, that 30mm Jesus nut on the flange was just that.. I had to "jump" on a long breaker bar AFTER heating the nut up to glowing red and burning the insides out.. Must have been ~500 ft pounds to brake that puppy loose.. I took a piece of angle iron and mounted it to the flange to have my brother stand on that as well as a counter.. We are NO wimps, that nut was tight AF! 145k on clock and probably never been off..

Rented a slide hammer and tools I didn't need. I ended up using the Flange itself to bang out the Shaft and bearing against the nut, didn't expect that to go so well.. Froze the shaft in the freezer and set the bearing in the 100F AZ sun. Then tapped it down on the shaft on the inner race. Then froze the whole shaft and bearing, and it FELL into the transfercase, no tapping or pressing needed. Put on the circlip, new seal and new flange! Troqued the Nut to 120# maybe a little more because after doing 500# to get it off; 120# felt like Childs Play.

Drum roll and the results of ALL my work: OLD flange had 0.005" play measured with Micrometer; after changing EVERYTHING there same 0.005" or 5 thousandths play.. Man am I a happy camper.. New seal now at least! I REALLY wish this exceptable play was listed SOMEWHERE.. I dug through EVERY Rave manual I could find and every form said "no play"..

So NOW I guess I am shopping for a Double Cardon front drive shaft.. 2" lift and 3deg radiaus arms are installed.. Reading both TW and GBR shafts each have their own issues and faults.. ALWAYS SOMETHING..

Anyhow posting for others to comment on if this play is normal or if I possibly have a bad output shaft? Looked Great! sharp teeth and all..

Edit:
As requested in another reply elsewhere, I am going to list the parts used in this:

Front output Bearing: STC1130
Front Output Flange: STC3432

Total 2023 cost 60$ ebay shopping with NOS OEM flange
Total time: 4 hours with dinner and lots of brakes and sweat; 1-2 hours if the Nut had played nicely, with most time spent freezing parts and making a pair of needle nose plyers for the circlip.

Did you confirm your mudshield was installed properly? I had a rebuilt TC show up with improperly oriented front and rear mud shields. This preventing the proper seating of the output flanges. Easy mistake to look at.

 

[kris812]

Well, I went kinda NUTSO on this issue. I ordered a Tom Woods DC front driveshaft and while it helped it didn't totally remove the vibrations. I removed the Rear DS with the Flex joint and things were much smoother, but the 75mph deceleration vibration was still there but MUCH better and now more of a Humm (I am fairly sure this is still the front TC outputs .005" play, OR I pushed the axle over too far with my Panhard to line up to the fenders making DS make a Z turn).

Which brings me to the Rear Drive shaft. I ordered a normal 2 UJ conversion shaft and flange from Lucky8. Well what a PITA, come to find out the dust shield that was already pressed onto the new flange was too long and interfered with the axle housing. So I pressed/beat the shield off and ground it down until it cleared the housing so it could turn. I checked the pinion torque before and after, within the gear lash dead zone, with wheels on and axles in. FYI I had 0.75nm before and 1.0nm after changing the flange and seal.

Welp wouldn't you know it, it still shakes at any speed, but again NOT as bad as it was before. So I measured the pinon angles on the TC and rear axle and found it was 3-4 degrees difference. Well poop, these HD TF rear arms didn't fix those angles after all, sigh nothing is easy. So, I found out 'some' Defenders came with a Spacer on the Arm to Chassis mount, part # KVX000010 . Refusing to pay 60$ each for these I measured the holes and ordered some 3" Exhaust flanges with 85mm hole spacing.

A little grinding where the flanges met on the chassis in one spot, little chamfering of the edges and they slipped right on with the Big nut relieving pressure on the bushing (did not fit with that nut tight with the TF bushing but it did on the stock one). Holes lined up perfectly. They are 10mm thick and got the Pinion angles to within 1 degree of each other. If it was possible, a 12-15mm thick one would probably get it perfect with these TF arms, 2-3" TF MED lift. Maybe had I used the Gaskets they came with it would have helped a tad as well but I didn't want those in there.

Anyhow Pretty smooth sailing now minus the light Hummm of the front deceleration vibration at 75 but at least it doesn't want to rip the fillings out of my teeth and the front lugs nuts off now! The Flanges I got were 18$ each and MAN it is some tough 304 SS to grind on! >> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P4Z5QT2

 

[kris812]

Another picture showing the FRONT driveshaft 'turning' or making that Z shape. The wheels are centered in the frame and fenders, took a LOT of pressure and pushing to get the Panhard Rod in at that length. Any input on the Panhard length adjustments would be appreciated!

Also 2 pics to better show the before and after the Spacers to rotate the rear axle to align Pinion angles.

 

[terryjm1]

Nice! I just noticed a new “popping“ sound on mine occasionally during acceleration and with sideways inertia. The only bushings I didn’t replace on this one were the trailing arms. They seemed fine but are old. I should have done them when I did the others. I was a little too eager to get it on the road. I dont have any vibration issues but your spacer approach looks interesting.

 

[kris812]

So, I've moved the Panhard bar about 1/2" to the Left/Driver to get the Axle centered on the outside of the Frame using straight edges and tape measures. I haven't tested at 75mph yet but I think the Deceleration Vibrations up front are subdued as I could slightly hear it at 50mph+ and that is now gone.

Apparently, I centered the wheels to the body when I put the Panhard Rod on with 'not a care in the world' about the frame or DS. This made even driving over bumps and down the road rougher as I'm guessing I was bound up on the bushings by pushing it over so far.


So converting the rear FLEX rear UJ to standard 2 UJ DS and PROPER alignment of my REAR driveshaft flanges with Trailing Arm Spacers was the KEY to MOST of my front end vibrations. Panhard pushed over too far made for the high speed DECEL vibrations in the "transfer case?". Smoth-ish sailing now for a Rover, I'll call this case closed!!


Terry: I had those same pops until I changed my arms and bushings. They looked 'okay' when I took them off, in fact EVERY bushing looked good except my panhard ones from fluid getting on them.

 

[DiscoClay]

Those front output bearings do go bad, so your work was not entirely in vain. I bought everything need to replace the one in my D2 forever ago as preventative maintenance, but haven't got around to it.

Not that you will ever want to do this job again, but a good electric impact should do the job way better than a breaker bar. I learned that almost a decade ago. I also use drilled/slotted angle iron for holding flanges. If the nut/shaft is rusted, heat may still be required.

EDIT: To add, I have used TW driveshafts without issue. Any aftermarket HD shaft will be heavier and may induce more vibrations, especially on high mileage truck. I have only heard good things about GBR, but have no experience with them.

TW? GBR? Links? )

 

[DiscoClay]

Dorman 938-210 OE FIX driveshaft

$427USD at Amazon, as of this post.

Amazon.com

 

[DiscoClay]

$427USD at Amazon, as of this post.

Amazon.com

But why you bother when the Tom Woods shaft is actually the same price? (https://4xshaft.com/collections/lan.../double-cardan-land-rover-shaft-front-or-rear)

And you're right about their info. This is a handy explainer: https://4xshaft.com/blogs/other-veh...asuring-your-landrover-rangerover-driveshafts

 

[kris812]

I did NOT get the OE fix one on amazon..

As I said on Jul 12th, I got the TOM woods through Lucky8 as was a little cheaper than directly through him. Also, no tax to AZ so was the FLAT 418 to my door. It's also where I got the rear DS conversion kit.

Might want to measure the depth of the pilot on your flange as the first DS I got from Tom Woods had the pilot too long and the flanges never mated.. Tom took care of the issue and made me another one the next day.

Discovery I Driveshafts

Lucky8 Off Road

lucky8llc.com

TOM WOODS D1 FRONT DOUBLE CARDAN DRIVE SHAFT

Tom Wood's offers a variety of drive shafts for the Land Rover applications ranging through the conventional two joint drive shaft, the conventional double cardan and a multiple double cardan drive shaft. If you have no lift on the vehicle, you are probably best served with the stock type drive...

lucky8llc.com

 

[kris812]

Here are some pictures of the flanges not mating.. And to note, BOTH old and new flanges had the same depth on the pilot.

AND, I forgot the UJ seal was buckled near my thumb as well..

 

[StangGT5]

TW? GBR? Links? )

Tom Woods shafts can be bought through Lucky 8 or his shop. Lucky 8 does sales on the driveshafts, but I'm not sure of how often.

You can google Great Basin Rovers. Pretty sure you have to call them to order.

 

[p m]

You guys are certainly gluttons for punishment.
(1) Not to say it never happens, but I have never, ever, seen a Land Rover transfer case without play in yoke bearings (in 7 Rovers I own or owned).
(2) TF rear links do nothing with respect to pinion angle. Shimming the arms on the rear side helps, you might need about 1/4" of washer/spacer.
(3) U-jointed rear driveshafts take more beating than a Rotoflex-ed shaft, but they do not in general solve the vibration issues. Consider this - a Rotoflex is practically a CV joint by the way it operates; the front U-joint on the rear driveshaft works nearly without any angle, and pinion misalignment is taken up by the Rotoflex.
(4) I, too, ran into an issue of rear pinion yoke flange not clearing the third member bore (don't remember where I bought the parts), so it must be a common issue. Had to shave the perimeter of the flange with an angle grinder.
(5) Panhard rod is a piece of cake to align using a ratchet strap. Really not an issue at all.
(6) My first knee-jerk reaction to the driveline vibration is to yank the front driveshaft. Yet, nearly in all cases, the rear was the cause. It is a lot heavier.

 

[kris812]

You guys are certainly gluttons for punishment.
(1) Not to say it never happens, but I have never, ever, seen a Land Rover transfer case without play in yoke bearings (in 7 Rovers I own or owned).
(2) TF rear links do nothing with respect to pinion angle. Shimming the arms on the rear side helps, you might need about 1/4" of washer/spacer.
(3) U-jointed rear driveshafts take more beating than a Rotoflex-ed shaft, but they do not in general solve the vibration issues. Consider this - a Rotoflex is practically a CV joint by the way it operates; the front U-joint on the rear driveshaft works nearly without any angle, and pinion misalignment is taken up by the Rotoflex.
(4) I, too, ran into an issue of rear pinion yoke flange not clearing the third member bore (don't remember where I bought the parts), so it must be a common issue. Had to shave the perimeter of the flange with an angle grinder.
(5) Panhard rod is a piece of cake to align using a ratchet strap. Really not an issue at all.
(6) My first knee-jerk reaction to the driveline vibration is to yank the front driveshaft. Yet, nearly in all cases, the rear was the cause. It is a lot heavier.

I got a smoking deal for 180$ new TF spring and pro shock kit local: this started all my problems HAHA!

First terrible caster, so I put on correction arms; then bad Vibrations so I changed ALL 3.5 UJ's.
Took one look after installing front DS and said to myself, "No S. it shakes those DS angles are in 100% in need of a double cardan".
Shuck the output and said WTF, measured with micrometer and started researching and calling people.

Then down the hole I went changing stuff!

1) This is my only Rover to compare to: However I wrote to Ashcroft and a couple other rebuilders and was told "no play". To which I smelt BS but changed the bearing and flange. After pulling the output shaft I clearly seen why there's play, single "ball" bearing pivot point with shaft inside center diff spiders. It had play from the assembly line engineered like that!

2) yup, 12mm on mine got rear cleaned up.

3) I agree and the rotoflex is more of a driveline isolator, commonly used on BMW's and lots/most of steering shafts for this reason. BUT, A new flex lasted less than 100 miles ON ROAD ONLY and was cracked to hell and I said, NOPE F'k this!

4) I made Tom woods very clear of the Flanges Pilot Depth being different and he said "Never had this issue before" and I suggested ALL D1 and Defenders 'Dina flanges' get cut down like mine in the Future.

5) I just had someone move the steering wheel to shift the body L/R for Panhard adjustments and install. "wiggle it" - "bolt falls right in"

6) 100% agree and did the same thinking it was the front.. but I had issues with BOTH of my DS's.. And on the stock front only (with caster arms) made a wopp wopp power surging 0-5mph like a bad stall converter! The rear flex and bad angles made my teeth fall out and shake vigorously at 75mph.. Off they went to the spare parts pile with new UJs in them.