Headstud info

[best4x4]

I think it comes down to quality with the TTY bolts. There are SO many different brands or Chinese wonders out there! No clue what brand those last set on my 95 were but it certainly sounded awful when it was warming up or cooling down with all the snaps & pops. I did a quick HG job on my 97 XD when it started leaking externally out the back right before summer 3 years ago. I did nothing special and it's been doing great and it does not make any of those noises with TTY bolts. When the 95 blew it's HG's on Christmas Day I decided to give the ARP's a go on my personal truck as that HG job maybe had 5-7K on it tops before something went south and fast. I have always done the ARP's on customers or friends trucks when they requested them. I never honestly heard of any of them having issues with the ARP kits to be honest.

The quality of the ARP studs vs some of the TTY bolts I've seen in those cheap kits or just the bolts themselves = were awful vs the ARP studs. I knew a guy that just said screw it and he went with some Grade 8 bolts from his local hardware store lol. I never heard the outcome of that, but he didn't care as it was a dying D1 ranch truck so no clue if it lasted 5min or 5 years on those bolts lol.

 

[11b4v]

Perfect timing on this topic. I'm doing HG's at 237K and will be re-using the ARP studs from my last job at 185K. No overheating, just a coolant leak from the back of the passenger head. I want to add that my lazy ass Did Not do the required 'later re-torque' and now think that's why I'm back in there now. If anybody recalls what the mileage is for the later re-torque, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Stocksuspension66]

I’ve had the displeasure of doing a shit ton of heads/motors on these piles. I’ve used the factory tty and aftermarket tty as well as arp studs. And they all leak eventually. On my cammed, heads ported top hat 4.6 I even went as far as getting a new +-2% torque wrench to ensure even torque. I would hate torquing tty bolts. One would feel like I’m about to pop a vein in my forehead with how much force is required, and the. Next would be effortless. Maybe an mls gasket with factory tty or arp bolts not studs would be best

 

[terryjm1]

What I find interesting is I have never had an issue whatsoever with head gaskets with a 3.5 liter rover V8. Maybe the metal head gaskets would be a better option. I dunno…

 

[11b4v]

Just ordered a set of the Felpro MLS head gaskets. New to me. Going to set me back two days on my HG work, but will report back with a side by side comparison photo.

 

[discostew]

Thats funny you mention the snap crackle pop noises. When I put this one together the banging noises as it cooled down the first time were very noticeable.

This is the 2nd engine I've built with studs and as luck would have it, both blew the head gasket Jan this year. The other one was torqued to 100 ft lbs based on ARPs first revision of instructions. It went about 80k, but its life was a little rougher. It had 4.0 pistons and ran like a rocket until a trip to the upper peninsula where they only sell the low octane and it pinged itself across Michigan and was never the same after that trip.

I'm done with studs, and also done with 4.0 pistons.

I'm thinking 80K was probably a success. I think 40K would be about normal. Maybe not for a major blow out. But the seeping and sweating usually starts around 30K. I feel like it has more to do with everything being aluminum and expanding and contracting thru heat cycles.
I still would probably not try the ARB stud kits. Maybe its just because I've always worked for a manufacturer and never outside of that whole structure. In that world you don't rethink stuff for engineers. You can if you like because your an engineer. I just have a High School diploma and 42 years of experience.

 

[ERover82]

same. Top hat block, arp stud kit, put together in 2020. It just started dumping coolant out the back drivers side after about 25k.

I havent torn it apart yet, but if theres not a visible defect on the gasket that I overlooked Im going back to bolts.

The beck arnley bolt set seems legit. lots of garbage out there. Some rover parts shops are even shipping non tty bolts.

Have you tried an MLS gasket yet? Many, if not most, modern aluminum engines use them.

 

[robertf]

Have you tried an MLS gasket yet? Many, if not most, modern aluminum engines use

No,

and really my experience with TTY bolts on a D1 hasn't been the doom and gloom I'm seeing on this thread. I bought into the hype after I got my first set of junk chinese bolts while building a 4.6 to replace a still running 220k 4.0.

Update on my bolt search:
The beck arnley bolts they sell separate from the HG kit that include the tube of grease do have a slight cross section reduction like the OE bolts. Same with the AB set I got, though neither matches the pic of the OE cross section.

 

[StangGT5]

Here's a link to the WCB ARP bolts (not studs). http://www.westcoastbritish.com/enginemods.htm

You have to call them, and you either get a pleasant younger guy or a kinda prickly old guy. Supply is usually limited but these are my go-tos. For what its worth, when I pulled the heads off my RPI engine that was installed by ECR in the early 2000s, the TTY bolts each felt like the Hulk had installed them.

Not sure what bolts RPI/ECR was using, or why Bruce Banner was working there at the time, but they held up fine for nearly two decades and 80K+ miles. I was only pulling the heads because I snapped two rusty bolts installing headers.

From what I understand, most consider the modern composite gaskets to be superior than MLS for the RV8. Opinions clearly vary though. Plenty of high HP applications use MLS, though I'm not a big fan.

 

[ERover82]

I'd order bolts from Turner. They sort through all the crap to only use/resell the good stuff.

 

[robertf]

For what its worth, when I pulled the heads off my RPI engine that was installed by ECR in the early 2000s, the TTY bolts each felt like the Hulk had installed them.

Not sure what bolts RPI/ECR was using, or why Bruce Banner was working there at the time, but they held up fine for nearly two decades and 80K+ miles. I was only pulling the heads because I snapped two rusty bolts installing headers.

I believe thats normal. Every bolted head I've removed required the highlift jack handle and still felt like I seperated a rib when complete

 

[best4x4]

When you read the info from ARP = it clearly mentions no re-torque is required on their FAQ section if you followed the install procedure. 90% of all my HG jobs over the years were all TTY, and then a few customers started requesting ARP studs. They certainly didn't come back for any re-torque's or with HG's pissing after a few heat cycles. Also these engines certainly aren't getting any younger.

I bought an 04 D2 years ago and it had ARP studs on it, and I never had to do a HG job on that D2. Then I also owned 2 new 03's back in the day and while I did put a lot of miles on them very quickly driving across TX I got em around 150K to 175K and never needed HG's with TTY bolts.

My latest HG issues with my 95 D1 were strange. Everything was fine, then I noticed coolant by the reservoir (no massive explosion of coolant, more like a cracked reservoir) at a fuel stop, topped it off, was in stop/go kind of traffic and went probably 45 miles at slower speeds. Pulled over to check and everything was fine. Then once out of all the traffic/slow downs I got up to 75-80MPH, and smelled coolant. Pulled over same coolant loss as original fuel stop. Topped off with water, drove slow, and it was fine. Figured out anything above 2500RPM is what caused it to over pressurize my cooling system.

Limped it to my friends and it never overheated or acted up at speeds of 55MPH or less. We parked it, and my friend tore it down to inspect it. Found a few suspect spots that looked like the surfaces just weren't cleaned 100%. Went back up and we slammed out the HG job and this time used the ARP studs and even slapped on some copper coat. Zero snap crackle pop, and around town zero issues. Drove it above 2500RPM and bingo back to being rock hard on top radiator hose and coolant present around reservoir. Tested & exhaust gases in Coolant Reservoir.

4.6L 14CUX/GEMS/Bosch config is in it with the ARP studs again and all is well even at higher RPM/speeds. Zero snap crackle pop, and no coolant issues at all.

We are going to pressure test that block, and the heads, but something somewhere has to have a fine crack. Block/Head surfaces were good. Besides that the 3.9L ran flawless before this. We also did discover it's a 14 hole block in a 95 D1 so either it was NOS LR tossed in (wouldn't put it past em for slapping something funky into it on the factory floor or she already had a replacement engine installed somewhere in it's past). Before the block becomes a table we're going to figure out the darn issue. We do know one head is newer than the other and that in it's past #5 piston was replaced due to a tech dropping a valve cover bolt into the engine and running it.... (found info in the pile of service records I have).

 

[jymmiejamz]

My experience with steel gaskets is that when they fail, they fail catastrophically. Composite gaskets just slowly leak more and more over time from the coolant jackets.

 

[terryjm1]

The last 4.0 I put together I dId something “goofy” and on one head I turned the last two tty bolts 90 degrees extra. I was using a beck arnley set. On the second bolt I realized what I had done. The bolt didn’t get harder to turn, it became easier the more I over tightened it. ( I am not Bruce Banner) However, the original bolts removed required near Hulk power to remove, similar to Robertf and StangGT5 experienced.

So, I was ordering other parts from LR direct and added enough tty bolts to replace the ones on that head. From memory, the tty bolts I ordered from LR Direct were advertised as OEM.

That engine has Beck Arnley on one head and LR Direct “OEM” bolts on the other side. I will probably be posting back in a few years which side failed...

There was no snap crackel pop so maybe it will be more that a few years.

 

[special ed]

So i hate piping in on these conversations but a little bit of my experience. To each their own so take it or leave it as you would like. To start I have done hundreds of these heads and swear i will never use a stretch bolt again. The chance of pulling threads out of a block using a stretch bolt is way more likely. The reason stretch bolts are way harder to remove is because it is tensioned by stretching the bolt. A stud torqued down is set to even clamping pressure so it is under a lot less stress. Also note that stretch bolts are a softer material and studs are heat treated to be very hard. The new 10 bolt ARP stud kit is a harder bolt than the older 14 bolt kit. Note the bolts in that kit are shorter than the old kit as well.

The origional torq from arp was way to high, if you bought a kit from Mark at D&D then you got a sheet that lowered the torque spec. If i remeber it was 80lbs. Every once in a while i notice even that was wanting to pull threads. After a long conversation with ARP and Mark it was agreed upon that even dropping to 65 or 70lbs was sufficient for low compression low HP low revving applications. I now use 70lbs for a torq spec when doing them. It works. Now as for installing the stud, you grease the stud and DO not locktite or seal them in place. The old way was hand tight but they really need to be snugged into the block. I do this with a 1/4 inch ratched and just git it a little snug. Hand tight and you can feel the stud move when final torking the nut so you want to just tighten the stud a little more than hand tight so it is set.

Now to a little more information. They will all eventually leak. Aluminum expands and contracts a lot with heat cycles. The mating surface of the head to the block is where that movement is going to be the most and the gasket is not going to expand and contract like the surrounding surfaces. Soooo it will eventually leak no matter if you use stretch bolts or studs. I think it is really apples and apples I like the even clamping force of studs over a stretch bolt. You know it is tight and torged when your done. At that point any movement is due to a flaw in the threads of the block.

Little common sense if i may. When using a stretch bolt you are stretching a steel bolt into an aluminum thread on the block. Forces are moving as you are tightening and the aluminum threads are under extreme force as the steel is moved across them. To add this twisting motion is done under stress because the bolt is tight already and now you are tightening it another 90 and 90. With a stud once it is placed in the aluminum block it is set and the steel threads are not moving across the aluminum. Therefore less strain on the aluminum and less of a chance of thread failure. Then since you are threading a steel nut onto a steel stud the strength of both materials is matched and you are not placing a twisting force into the aluminum threads of the block.

I could go on and on but i will stop there. I have never had an issue with using a stud unless there was a problem there to begin with. Many Many people have used and continue to use stretch bolts and not have an issue but the only time i ever had issues with threads was with stretch bolts and why i would never use them again.

 

[best4x4]

ARP Instructions:

Nope I agree & that's why I started using the ARP Studs on customers LR's upon request or as an option. However I will have to say ARP changed their recommended installation specs several times over the years. I've always cleaned the threads, and applied "some" loctite paste to the threads going into the engine. Then I used their lube for the threads for the nuts & I always made sure the area where the washers sat was clean.

I truly do think the mass of TTY bolts these days are just cheap junk especially over the say the past 5 years. Quality has just gone to an all time low. At least with ARP you have extremely high quality. Heck some of the TTY bolts I've received were rusted blobs in sealed bags....

I agree to each their own, and honestly every LR V8 out there is going to be a little different just depending on how it was made & now how it's been treated/maintained/worked on.

 

[ERover82]

Head Bolt Set V8

Head Bolt Set V8

www.turnerengineering.co.uk

I checked and Turner confirmed that they are stretch bolts, despite not looking like them.

 

[dearmer]

As an owner of a D1 I've been following this as I'm sure I'll have to replace the headgaskets on my engine at some point. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the issue of serviceability. I've been told that when ARP studs are used, the heads cannot be removed with the engine in the vehicle. Is this true and does it apply to both the D1 and the D2? To me at least this would be a huge factor in whether I'd go with the studs or bolts.

 

[pinkytoe69]

I've been told that when ARP studs are used, the heads cannot be removed with the engine in the vehicle. Is this true and does it apply to both the D1 and the D2? To me at least this would be a huge factor in whether I'd go with the studs or bolts.

I think if you really want to, you can undo the engine mounts and lower the engine a little bit to clear yourself some room.

On a D2 I did it by putting the head on with the interfering stud out. I then screwed it in with the head in place. I think it was only one stud that was causing an issue on the driver side?

 

[11b4v]

I just redid head gaskets on my D2 where I used ARP studs the last time, and yes, I pulled the three, top, long studs to get them out of the way, and be able to lower the head back on the block easily. Funny thing is I got the heads off WITHOUT having to remove those longer studs.

Once I got the head lowered back on, I just screwed in the longer studs, tightened, done.