How many of you would pay $15,000 for a billet Rover V8 block?
- Thread starter kennith
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That's kind of my issue with the industry.
That's one of the more informative discussions, and it concludes nothing; just a bunch of rumors and "I been doin' this for thirty years" stuff. No problems ever? My fucking ass you lying piece of shit. Unless he can count the builds on one finger, he's full of it. You can't build mechanically injected Cummins engines for thirty years without something breaking eventually...
I have a lot of phone calls to make over the next few months, and a lot of persuading to do. I'm also going to be pissing a lot of people off, but you know what? They've fucking got it coming. I've had it with hicks who don't know their shit, and present themselves as authorities. If I hear one more person claim their liners are proprietary or special...
I fucking know where they're buying the things. When you let a market stagnate, this is what you end up with.
Cheers,
Kennith
I know where you're going with that, and I've made it quite clear, many times over, that I don't claim to be an expert. If I was, I'd make my own damned block. That doesn't change the fact that current practice is the wrong answer to the wrong question.
It's not my fault if the people who claim to be experts can't keep the fuck up. That's what happens when people either don't demand better, or bitch and moan when better costs more. Over the years, you end up with complacency and conventional wisdom; both of which are foolish without a foundation in reality.
If I call an engine builder, I shouldn't be the most educated person on the phone. Putting something together isn't the same as understanding why you've done it the way you did.
You can go to Newegg, buy some parts, watch a LTT video, and build a PC in half an hour. Would you do that and expect someone to pay my prices for it? Hell no you wouldn't. Indeed, if you asked a builder how much RAM was in the machine he was trying to sell you and he couldn't answer, you'd walk away immediately.
How about if he told you overclocking was the best thing since sliced bread, and he's really pumped that thing up, but couldn't tell you the frequencies and voltages from any build he's ever done? What if he then swore he's been building computers for thirty years and never had a failure of any kind?
Again, you'd leave; and rightfully so, whether or not you could actually build one yourself.
If the Land Rover community doesn't get off it's fat, lazy, useless ass, there will be a point where vehicle conditions become terminal, and we won't have any options to keep them stock.
Cheers,
Kennith
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Thats kind of my point
Your attacking the symptom not the illness. We all have figured out over the last 25 years that inadequate cooling causes the failures.
The cylinder head is stuck in the early 60s and dumps tons of heat into the cooling system. Look how big a rover radiator is compared to similar power output engines of the same vintage.
The switch to composite gaskets destroyed any quench area and made things worse from a thermal efficiency perspective
a proper designed piston combustion chamber combo with composite gaskets in mind and intake runners designed for port injection rather than wet flow carb intakes should mitigate cooling problems significantly
It would also eliminate hot spots and allow reliable operation on low octane fuel, something that a country that sold leaded fuel into the 90s never saw as a problem
Mpg would go up too, making the off highway range a little easier to handle
Maybe spend next week solving that problem
Your attacking the symptom not the illness. We all have figured out over the last 25 years that inadequate cooling causes the failures.
The cylinder head is stuck in the early 60s and dumps tons of heat into the cooling system. Look how big a rover radiator is compared to similar power output engines of the same vintage.
The switch to composite gaskets destroyed any quench area and made things worse from a thermal efficiency perspective
a proper designed piston combustion chamber combo with composite gaskets in mind and intake runners designed for port injection rather than wet flow carb intakes should mitigate cooling problems significantly
It would also eliminate hot spots and allow reliable operation on low octane fuel, something that a country that sold leaded fuel into the 90s never saw as a problem
Mpg would go up too, making the off highway range a little easier to handle
Maybe spend next week solving that problem
There are two main problems with that.
1: The cylinder head is of Buick design.
That's part of the engine's personality. It's Buick when they still got to do whatever they wanted. They are restrictive in general; taming the top end and generating "slightly hotter spots", and there isn't a great way around it because:
2: There's not enough material to do much else.
The heads flat-out need to have more mass. There's no way around that, and several manufacturers have already figured that out. I haven't seen their products in person, nor have I any experience with them whatsoever.
There's no way to take what we've got and get the level of performance you're describing. The heads would indeed have to be tossed in favor of something new, but how far to take that combustion chamber and the ports... It's easy to get caught up in logical performance moves, but also easy to forget that if it doesn't feel like a Buick, it's no longer a Rover V8.
That means inefficiency, to some degree. The Buick design is deliberately imperfect.
For all I know one of the options currently available is precisely what you'd like to see. Hell, one may be precisely what I'd like to see. I can't go by their brief descriptions, though. All I've been reading and hearing until this point is that they have electrolytes. They may have already taken it as far as it can go on the factory block. I've no idea.
If you want to see improvements, in that regard, just look at... Well... Essentially any other cylinder head.
It's not overly difficult to have custom heads made however you like, and not prohibitively expensive if you intend to keep the engine for some time. What I want in a cylinder head on a Rover V8 is very likely nowhere near what you want. That's why the heads are a tertiary concern. It's a major effect on the engine's function in general.
No single product at that price point will please everyone when it has a notable effect, and that's a problem because it's going to change how the whole vehicle feels. It's not some minor adjustment, and it's a process better suited to individuals.
I'll personally be pleased as punch with nothing more than a bit more beef and denser material. I happen to like it as-is. What I want in a cylinder head for a Rover V8, though, would not be enough to meet your expectations.
Cheers,
Kennith
1. "inadequate cooling causes the failures" - Are you saying parts of the engine run too hot even with a nominally functioning cooling system?
2. "The cylinder head is stuck in the early 60s and dumps tons of heat into the cooling system." - As opposed to dumping it where?
3. "The switch to composite gaskets destroyed any quench area" - Can MLS gasket not mitigate the issue?
4. I assume you mean the GEMS intake, not Bosch.
4. I was referring to "intake runners designed for port injection rather than wet flow carb"
Honestly it seems like the simplest answer is an OBDII powered coolant temp alarm such as provided by the UltraGauge. Prevent overheating, prevent a slew of issues. That still leaves the Bosch (DexCool) block corrosion issue on, but as Robison suggests, that could be prevented by flushing, or replacing with a non-corroded block and maintaining the coolant. At that point, what is left to solve?
I'm going to try to find out more about the after-market head options that exist currently, but it'll take a while.
Check out TA Performance and RPI's Wildcat heads, at least. They may be set up how you'd like them to be. I really wish I could line them all up in front of me, but that's just not going to happen. I'm not going to buy them without more information, and I can't imagine they'd be too keen on shipping them out for such a comparison.
It's a shame, because there's actually an engine dyno out here, and it's not generally doing all that much aside from collecting dust. A fun couple of days could be had swapping parts around and checking stuff to see what affects what in this reality; and not just in electrolyte land.
Cheers,
Kennith
Check out TA Performance and RPI's Wildcat heads, at least. They may be set up how you'd like them to be. I really wish I could line them all up in front of me, but that's just not going to happen. I'm not going to buy them without more information, and I can't imagine they'd be too keen on shipping them out for such a comparison.
It's a shame, because there's actually an engine dyno out here, and it's not generally doing all that much aside from collecting dust. A fun couple of days could be had swapping parts around and checking stuff to see what affects what in this reality; and not just in electrolyte land.
Cheers,
Kennith
In order to determine whether you have a non-corroded block, you've either got to go through some trouble or trust someone. My concern is the future. The more time passes, the more existing blocks are exposed to poor coolant maintenance. They're only going to get worse, and it's going to become a bit of a pain to sort through them after a while.
Not everyone ditched the DexCool, and few swap coolant as often as required, anyway. Even if you're running another coolant, corrosion can still happen if it's not changed often enough. This is not the best aluminum in the world; nor is it the best casting. I'm just hoping the fact that I converted early and was running the green shit when my DII was parked so long saved it from that corrosion. I sure hope so...
The engine and head itself do a fair bit of flexing, so far as I understand. I don't have hard data to prove it, and I don't think I'll ever be able to accumulate it, but I believe that is the case. If you slightly increase the stability of the deck and stiffen up the head just a touch as well, that will be an improvement that will allow reliable higher performance for those who want it, and longer engine life for those that don't. Even the heads alone are better than nothing.
Indeed, Robert is quite right suggesting that heads are a more logical immediate concern for individuals. Heads don't just flow air; they reinforce the deck.
I want to call these guys soon to get a better handle on the Wildcat heads, to see what can be done with them:
https://www.lloydspecialistdevelopm...over-v8-engine-tuning/wildcat-cylinder-heads/
Just remember the rule underpinning every notably reliable engine ever made: They're all over-built for their output. That was a big part of what made the '90s so damned fun. Keeping all those mating surfaces and associated planes stable is very important when you're trying to get everything out of an engine.
It's not as fun as imagining all manner of performance mods, but it makes a difference. When my engine goes under the knife, most of the extra money is going into stuff that nobody will ever see and won't get me a single extra pony; but it'll last longer and do what it already does with a touch more enthusiasm.
Cheers,
Kennith
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And that's why I don't have a set sitting here waiting to be used.
I do want to learn more about them and the Wildcats, though; but at this time I don't know when they're machining what in the production schedule (makes or breaks some use cases), or whether or not they offer variations.
Cheers,
Kennith
The solution to this whole question is as follows: Rover V8 = Buick V8 = GM V8 = LS3 5.3 V8.
As George Hearst (yes, that Hearst) says in Deadwood, "Embrace the future"
Bob is your uncle.
As George Hearst (yes, that Hearst) says in Deadwood, "Embrace the future"
Bob is your uncle.
Those engines are not equivalent. Sure, you're climbing a power and efficiency ladder moving from one to another, but a Buick engine feels like a Buick engine. You may see an objective performance improvement, but you'll lose the subjective experience. I've driven a couple of hopped up RV8 vehicles, and when you really get the power out of them, it's fucking mind-blowing.
Damn those things will scream like nothing else on the market. Hell, the noise alone is unbelievable.
The Rover V8 heads are loosely based on an evolution of their "Fireball" concept going all the way back to the updated, Valve in Head Fireball Straight Eight. The later Nailheads were an evolutionary departure, but the 215 was indeed a member of the Fireball family. It was just a different way to accomplish the same thing.
Now, what they would have become if Buick had been allowed to continue development? I suppose the closest example would be the V6 in the GNX.
Rover probably didn't give two flying fucks about any of that, but it's what they got, and the long-term result is still affecting what we have today.
It's different than the original Fireball engines, and a little different from even the later 215, but that personality is still in there. Sure, you can indeed do better nowadays, but you're going to give something up. A nice idea would be a 300 block if it could be converted, but the whole point is the cast iron, and that would add weight. Moreover, they're not exactly growing on trees, either.
If the Rover V8 was given a proper future a few decades ago, we'd have something, but it wasn't. Rover bought it, and just did what they had to do to keep the thing remotely relevant. Maybe it was a money issue, maybe they just didn't see the point; I doubt anyone really knows for sure.
Sand casting would have probably been ditched if it had the money behind it other engines did. That wasn't how they were intended to be made originally, but at the time they weren't able to keep the other method stable. I'll bet that would have been cured over time.
Cheers,
Kennith
There's also the "embrace the fact that your Rover will be about as interesting as a 240Z with a 350 conversion" factor.
Cheers,
Kennith
It's light, simple, torquey, is ready to go without custom work, and is part of LR's history. The value of that is subjective.