Land Rover Engineer Requires Info
- Thread starter ORC1
- Start date
While you're at it, quit using open cell foam for the padding under the carpet, spend a $1.98 more on closed cell foam. I must have squeezed 5 gallons of water out of the carpet pad on the driver's side after the monsoon last Friday in SF.
ORC:
My 2 cents here:
I currently work in the car manufacturing industry myself and quite understand how this new technology makes it easier for the car company to pump out high numbers, with big profits, but sometimes those big profits eat away at a manufacturers heritege.
I own a 92 RR Classic & a 99 Disco II, I have also owned and wrenched on every type of jeep, gmc, and ford. If LR wants to make nice driving cars, keep the LR3 & freelander. But if they want to be "World's best out-of-the-box 4x4" something needs to be done.
If we were to make a LR4 / Disco Classic 2009 model we would need to look at the last generations mistakes.
- Live axles are key, but they would be more reliable if they were based around a Dana 44 / 60 with tough housing & carrier sections.
- HVAC controls in a Disco should be manual .. keep the electrics for the LR3 & freelander
- ABS / TRACs is a good idea on paper, but offroad it is easily beaten when it faults out and it sucks when a 1984 GMC jimmy walks all over you.
- Interior is okay, quality of materials is shotty.. Volvo can show you how to make an interior bulletproof and the seats not rip for 300,000 + km.
- Electrical Electrical ... My 92 RR has waterproof ECU which worked great if you got stuck in water and some came inside.. My Disco was dead once it got wet. If I was in the middle of nowhere when that happened, it would have been a long walk home I have no complaints about how the electrics work on these Discos but at least make the ECUs waterproof on a 4x4, study the ECU on any jeep product and you will agree.
- A diesel engine would be a super idea over here in Canada/USA as we are seeing a lot of manufacturers here looking into diesel alternatives. But keep it basic, so that it can be field serviced.
- SERVICEABILITY! ... I called my dealer after the ECU fried, and they told me they didnt even have the software to link upto it, so I replaced all ecu and running again, but I dont think I will ever be able to fix my flashing odometer unless I visit a LR dealer in USA.
- USE MORE COMMON PARTS for different markets.. Bosch is a brilliant system, but the american big 3 make some awesome ignition & fuel management components.. some MAF sensors here work within BOSCH voltages & can be had easily off the shelf vs. the Bosch part for the Disco takes like 2 weeks for the warehouses to get ahold of! not too good when you are at the side of the trail. The Range Rovers used some delco parts for fuel & so does Volvo, this way our parts suppliers over here in North America could help us out in a pinch.
Thats all my 2 cents allows for the day. I must get back to work
My 2 cents here:
I currently work in the car manufacturing industry myself and quite understand how this new technology makes it easier for the car company to pump out high numbers, with big profits, but sometimes those big profits eat away at a manufacturers heritege.
I own a 92 RR Classic & a 99 Disco II, I have also owned and wrenched on every type of jeep, gmc, and ford. If LR wants to make nice driving cars, keep the LR3 & freelander. But if they want to be "World's best out-of-the-box 4x4" something needs to be done.
If we were to make a LR4 / Disco Classic 2009 model we would need to look at the last generations mistakes.
- Live axles are key, but they would be more reliable if they were based around a Dana 44 / 60 with tough housing & carrier sections.
- HVAC controls in a Disco should be manual .. keep the electrics for the LR3 & freelander
- ABS / TRACs is a good idea on paper, but offroad it is easily beaten when it faults out and it sucks when a 1984 GMC jimmy walks all over you.
- Interior is okay, quality of materials is shotty.. Volvo can show you how to make an interior bulletproof and the seats not rip for 300,000 + km.
- Electrical Electrical ... My 92 RR has waterproof ECU which worked great if you got stuck in water and some came inside.. My Disco was dead once it got wet. If I was in the middle of nowhere when that happened, it would have been a long walk home
I have no complaints about how the electrics work on these Discos but at least make the ECUs waterproof on a 4x4, study the ECU on any jeep product and you will agree.- A diesel engine would be a super idea over here in Canada/USA as we are seeing a lot of manufacturers here looking into diesel alternatives. But keep it basic, so that it can be field serviced.
- SERVICEABILITY! ... I called my dealer after the ECU fried, and they told me they didnt even have the software to link upto it, so I replaced all ecu and running again, but I dont think I will ever be able to fix my flashing odometer unless I visit a LR dealer in USA.
- USE MORE COMMON PARTS for different markets.. Bosch is a brilliant system, but the american big 3 make some awesome ignition & fuel management components.. some MAF sensors here work within BOSCH voltages & can be had easily off the shelf vs. the Bosch part for the Disco takes like 2 weeks for the warehouses to get ahold of! not too good when you are at the side of the trail. The Range Rovers used some delco parts for fuel & so does Volvo, this way our parts suppliers over here in North America could help us out in a pinch.
Thats all my 2 cents allows for the day. I must get back to work
Internal Payload Management
I own a '05 Rubicon. I purchased a '03 DII specifically with no SLS, no ACE and no sunroofs. The DII solves the problem of the Rubicon's golf cart payload capacity and the other garbage isn't there to break. The aftermarket is thick with mods to improve it's off-roadability; I'm not going to pretend to tell LR what to do in this regard. LR knows how to build a reliable, capable ORV. It's called the Defender.
The problem I have with the DII is load management. There is no aftermarket or LR system that solves the problem of internal payload management that doesn't interfere with access to the fuel pump hatch. I carry a full set recovery gear including heavy chains, Hi-Lift and attachments, Pull Pal, parts, tools, CO2 tanks, and fluids. This is in addition to food, fuel and water for the expedition.
The heavy items need to be stored low, inside the lifted vehicle for safety reasons (of course, not the fuel). The load must be anchored to the chassis so it cannot shift during off-roading or become a hazard during an rollover.
Field Repairability
LR has to comply with FedLove regulations with computerized engine managment and SAI emissions systems. We can adapt. HOWEVER, if you don't release the software information necessary to access onboard functions to the aftermarket manufacturers like SnapOn or Matco et. al. your product becomes harder or even impossibe to field diagnose/repair.
Leave some space in the engine compartment so we can mount items like a Power Welder.
Ruggedize the ECM and BCU by shock-mounting and waterproofing the units.
Coil packs' location. Good grief.
IFS
Why would I purchase a LR product with IFS? Why on Earth should I suffer through the Socialist build quality of a Land Rover, the incompetence and effete, undeserved snobbery of its dealers for something that I can purchase from Toyota, Hummer, Ford, GM, Dodge and Jeep?
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cptyarderho said:I just don't believe this is anyone associated with LR.
"troll" I say...
See post #3 in this thread. But, I want to believe him.
Loz,
The data is in for January sales.
You sold 379 LR3's in January! :ack: You are now down to roughly 15% of DII NA volumes. That is abysmal. I doubt you can justify continuing the product on those volumes.
LR2 sales are now dropping after the initial intro bump. The Mini SUV/CUV is on the horizon. Diesel and 4x4. They understand the aftermarket manufacturers and the energy it adds to a brand. Land Rover doesn't. Prediction - LR2 sales drop to LR3 levels, or less.
It feels like Land Rover has 2 to 3 years to turn it around. There needs to be massive changes at LR. Maybe even move some design and manufacturing out of the EU, which is headed down the path of socialism. Didn't you do that in the 70's? Geesh.
You have enough feedback to move forward. Will it be in Solihull or India?
The data is in for January sales.
You sold 379 LR3's in January! :ack: You are now down to roughly 15% of DII NA volumes. That is abysmal. I doubt you can justify continuing the product on those volumes.
LR2 sales are now dropping after the initial intro bump. The Mini SUV/CUV is on the horizon. Diesel and 4x4. They understand the aftermarket manufacturers and the energy it adds to a brand. Land Rover doesn't. Prediction - LR2 sales drop to LR3 levels, or less.
It feels like Land Rover has 2 to 3 years to turn it around. There needs to be massive changes at LR. Maybe even move some design and manufacturing out of the EU, which is headed down the path of socialism. Didn't you do that in the 70's? Geesh.
You have enough feedback to move forward. Will it be in Solihull or India?
Another data point for Land Rover - the competition.
Mahindra Appalachian diesel pickup arrives in US next year, diesel hybrid version by 2010
Competition you say? Land Rover, now owned by Tata, will indirectly be competing with Mahindra & Mahindra's product line. Tata directly competes and will need to consider this announcement in their US product plans. Here we see a simple, no bells and whistle's, efficient product. Low cost. High fuel mileage. No navigation system. Roll up windows? Etc. You get the picture.
This feels like when Japan entered the US market with lower cost more fuel efficient vehicles. Japan has moved up scale and has left the lower cost market open to India and China.
Mahindra Appalachian diesel pickup arrives in US next year, diesel hybrid version by 2010
Indian automaker Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. will shake up the U.S. truck market next year when it introduces a new midsize pickup called the Appalachian sporting a 2.2L four-cylinder diesel engine producing around 150 horsepower and 300 pound feet of torque. Speaking with Mike Levine from Pickuptruck.com, John Perez, the CEO of Atlanta-based importer Global Vehicles U.S.A. that's aiding Mahindra's entry into the U.S. market, revealed that the truck will deliver 30 to 35 miles per gallon and cost in the mid-$20,000 range. It will be paired with a six-speed automatic that's controlled via a floor-mounted shifter or paddle shifters(!), have a class-leading payload of 2,600 lbs. and feature a 60,000-mile, four year bumper-to-bumper warranty. . . .
Competition you say? Land Rover, now owned by Tata, will indirectly be competing with Mahindra & Mahindra's product line. Tata directly competes and will need to consider this announcement in their US product plans. Here we see a simple, no bells and whistle's, efficient product. Low cost. High fuel mileage. No navigation system. Roll up windows? Etc. You get the picture.
This feels like when Japan entered the US market with lower cost more fuel efficient vehicles. Japan has moved up scale and has left the lower cost market open to India and China.
Appears Mahindra may now be in direct competition with Land Rover
Chrysler supposedly in talks with M&M to sell Jeep brand
Chrysler supposedly in talks with M&M to sell Jeep brand
India's Mahindra & Mahindra may have lost its bid for Jaguar and Land Rover, but the manufacturer of industrial and agricultural vehicles has its sights set on expansion, and that means teaming up with a larger automaker.
In order to reach the markets that matter, M&M may be looking to forge an alliance with Chrysler LLC. The Indian firm originally began selling Wranglers in its home market and might be interested in taking Jeep off Cerberus' hands. A report in the Economic Times says that "M&M is reportedly in talks with Chrysler for its iconic Jeep brand" although there's no confirmation that Chrysler is looking to offload the brand – yet. . . .
In order to reach the markets that matter, M&M may be looking to forge an alliance with Chrysler LLC. The Indian firm originally began selling Wranglers in its home market and might be interested in taking Jeep off Cerberus' hands. A report in the Economic Times says that "M&M is reportedly in talks with Chrysler for its iconic Jeep brand" although there's no confirmation that Chrysler is looking to offload the brand – yet. . . .
IMHO
This is a bullshit Sticky (thread)
I barely read any of it.
Do any of you realy believe some guy starting an
Im an L.R. engineer , talk to me thread is going to get any of you (us)
Defenders
better parts
better vehicals
more capable vehicals.
good deals
The L.R. machine is in the bling stage and theres nothing you can say or do about it.
Jim
This is a bullshit Sticky (thread)
I barely read any of it.
Do any of you realy believe some guy starting an
Im an L.R. engineer , talk to me thread is going to get any of you (us)
Defenders
better parts
better vehicals
more capable vehicals.
good deals
The L.R. machine is in the bling stage and theres nothing you can say or do about it.
Jim
jimjet said:
I tend to agree. Hopefully Loz and Land Rover design are at Tata revisiting the product line. Given Land Rovers recent sales numbers that will happen with AND without Solihull.
jimjet said:
The future should be interesting with Tata/Land Rover competing with Mahindra/Jeep . . .
Hey Loz,
I've only had the opportunity to drive an LR3 offroad at a few dealer events, but I do think I can offer a few good criticisms (which may have been previously mentioned, but I only skimmed through the 8 pages of posts).
I think that if you really want to address basic offroad concerns with the LR3, you should start with the huge overbite of the rear end. Fortunately or unfortunately, the spare tire mounted on the bottom has saved a number of owners at dealer events from ripping off the rear bumper. I think it would be nice if you could bring the approach/departure angles back to those of a stock D1 unraised.
Now, the wishlist!
Maybe LR should put out a low end model with coil springs for we enthusiasts who like to upgrade things. The overall suspension system is a great design for the people who are currently buying the truck. However, I think it would appeal to more off-roaders if it were more cheaply upgradable. Though I don't know for sure, making a custom A-Arm lift sounds pretty expensive. Going back to a live axle would be nice, but I'm sure that won't happen any time soon.
Someone else had a good idea about making a high-performance aftermarket group at LR, like Mopar is to Dodge. Maybe they could manufacture a good lift.
Maybe a manual CDL engage button, or front and rear stock locking diffs like the *competitor* puts out (Jeep Rubicon).
Not directly related to off-roading, but diesels would be nice, say, with a 6 speed manual gearbox? While not as expensive as over there, fuel is expensive here also, and that would give us a nice not-so-fuel-hungry option.
Thanks for asking and good luck!
-JP
I've only had the opportunity to drive an LR3 offroad at a few dealer events, but I do think I can offer a few good criticisms (which may have been previously mentioned, but I only skimmed through the 8 pages of posts).
I think that if you really want to address basic offroad concerns with the LR3, you should start with the huge overbite of the rear end. Fortunately or unfortunately, the spare tire mounted on the bottom has saved a number of owners at dealer events from ripping off the rear bumper. I think it would be nice if you could bring the approach/departure angles back to those of a stock D1 unraised.
Now, the wishlist!
Maybe LR should put out a low end model with coil springs for we enthusiasts who like to upgrade things.
The overall suspension system is a great design for the people who are currently buying the truck. However, I think it would appeal to more off-roaders if it were more cheaply upgradable. Though I don't know for sure, making a custom A-Arm lift sounds pretty expensive. Going back to a live axle would be nice, but I'm sure that won't happen any time soon.Someone else had a good idea about making a high-performance aftermarket group at LR, like Mopar is to Dodge. Maybe they could manufacture a good lift.
Maybe a manual CDL engage button, or front and rear stock locking diffs like the *competitor* puts out (Jeep Rubicon).
Not directly related to off-roading, but diesels would be nice, say, with a 6 speed manual gearbox? While not as expensive as over there, fuel is expensive here also, and that would give us a nice not-so-fuel-hungry option.
Thanks for asking and good luck!
-JP
Loz,
Here's the bottom line: When it comes down to the nitty gritty, and the Russian's try to take over (LOL), we want a badass, capable 4x4 to take us to the top of a f-ing mountain! We need to be able to do it w/o breaking down, and if we happen to need parts, the "stealerships" need to be able to support us, and it's imperative that the vehicles need to be basic enough that they can be serviced in the field.
Go ahead and keep your current line-up of "G-rides" with rubbish low-profile, triple chrome wheels, and let the soccer mom's and rappers fund Land Rover and keep them alive. In the meantime, however, build another few line-up of vehicles that gives prospective buyers a range of affordability and ruggedness.
Based on the previous posts, I think you know what kind of options we'd like to see, so I won't go through all of them again; otherwise, I'd be typing for years. Just look at Jeep's line-up... from high school, punk-kids, to the ultra wealthy, one can choose to make a purchase from a range of vehicles- rugged/ utilitarian, to rugged/ luxurious.
P.S. Tell Solihull, or Tata, or whomever the f*, to start manufacturing our bloody, friggin parts for our old rigs again!
Here's the bottom line: When it comes down to the nitty gritty, and the Russian's try to take over (LOL), we want a badass, capable 4x4 to take us to the top of a f-ing mountain! We need to be able to do it w/o breaking down, and if we happen to need parts, the "stealerships" need to be able to support us, and it's imperative that the vehicles need to be basic enough that they can be serviced in the field.
Go ahead and keep your current line-up of "G-rides" with rubbish low-profile, triple chrome wheels, and let the soccer mom's and rappers fund Land Rover and keep them alive. In the meantime, however, build another few line-up of vehicles that gives prospective buyers a range of affordability and ruggedness.
Based on the previous posts, I think you know what kind of options we'd like to see, so I won't go through all of them again; otherwise, I'd be typing for years. Just look at Jeep's line-up... from high school, punk-kids, to the ultra wealthy, one can choose to make a purchase from a range of vehicles- rugged/ utilitarian, to rugged/ luxurious.
P.S. Tell Solihull, or Tata, or whomever the f*, to start manufacturing our bloody, friggin parts for our old rigs again!