LR & Jag to reduce platforms to 2
- Thread starter landrovered
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knewsom said:
That's it really.
You can't repair that kind of damage which will make the next generation of Land Rovers expensive, disposable, vehicles.
I hope everyone here knows about the Toyota unibody cracking that occured in the FJ because we are going down the same path.
Eliot said:
Stick a air hose in the window, seal it and force high air pressure in and blow it back out...:rofl:
landrovered said:
Trying to compare Toyota's quality and customer support to Land Rovers is laughable.
We've been beating the piss out our FJ Cruiser for years and finally broke the rear end on it. Forgetting to turn the locker off on pavement doesn't help. The truck is CLEARLY a training vehicle and the dealer never gives us shit. The only other issue has been a tensioner pully.
Toyota is far from perfect, but not many car makers can produce a product that rivals theirs in overall quality and customer support. Land Rover doesn't remotely come close.
Toyota appears to have no intention of discontinuing their 70 series trucks either. Solid front and rear axles and undisputed reliability.
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FJ cruiser is body-on-frame, not unibody.
Garrett, where does Toyota sell the 70 series? Everywhere but here?
Garrett, where does Toyota sell the 70 series? Everywhere but here?
LOL, yeah, Toyota is the first car on my list to buy right now. Just in time for even more recalls to be made, including the Camry (will be announced in the next 30-days).
Yep, legendary reliability.
Until people die because of a defect that was probably swept under the rug.
Until people die because of a defect that was probably swept under the rug.
knewsom said:
Pretty much. We'll be getting 2010 Land Cruisers with the V8 Tdi (same motor going in the new Hiluxes) this year, along with some 2010 Defenders with the Puma. We have an EPA exemption though.
Toyota will still walk away from all this pretty clean. Their reputation a little tarnished, but much of it undeserved as it's getting political, lots of nervous nellies, etc. No one will remember next year. Everyone is running around covering their asses too. 1.3 million recalled by GM today.
Long after Land Rover has been flushed down the toilet, Toyota will still be producing high quality vehicles. Land Rover can't manage to sell three models in the US with relatively low production numbers. Not to mention their customer satisfaction has been in the shitter forever and their quality not far behind.
Toyota dominates world wide and I doubt that will change anytime soon.
2-months ago I would have agreed with you, Garrett. But the plot keeps getting deeper-and-deeper with Toyota. Almost their entire line-up is being recalled, or will be recalled in the next month or two. Toyota does not have a whole lot to lean on right now, at least not in the USA. Political or not, Toyota fucked up and they're paying big time for it now. It will last for more than a year. This scar will last for more than 5-years. If it gets any deeper, Ford might be building your Toyota.
Too bad Ford stopped building the Bronco. With the soon-to-be (already?) void left behind by the demise of LR, it seems to me that a simple, reliable, mod-friendly Bronco would be hugely popular, as long as they kept the production run on the limited side.
I know Yotas are tough, but anytime I read about their legendary reliability, I just remember the Top Gear episode where they had to escape the Rain Forest. The FJ died, numerous times, but the Zuk and the Rover kept on movin'. "The best car in the world... is the WORST car in the world!"
I know Yotas are tough, but anytime I read about their legendary reliability, I just remember the Top Gear episode where they had to escape the Rain Forest. The FJ died, numerous times, but the Zuk and the Rover kept on movin'. "The best car in the world... is the WORST car in the world!"
knewsom said:
It's hard to base "legendary" information on a 1 hour show using a 40 year old truck. You could just as easily check out their show on the Hilux and come to a different conclusion.
Toyota's break just like anything else, but far, far less frequently. We currently run about 10 Toyota's and 8 Land Rovers in our fleet. A good cross section from FJ60, FJ80s, Hiluxes, BJ75, HJ75, FJ Cruiser, etc. We also ran a dozen or so FJ60s at the last school I worked for, for many years. Those 60s were abused day in and day out and most were running well over 200K miles. They VERY rarely broke. Never a broken axle and one busted rear diff (truck had 250K on it) in three years. Putting a bunch of RRCs/D1s in a similar situation would not have the same outcome.
There is a very good reason our SF groups use Toyota products. Not only do they "blend" in better overseas, but they are far more reliable than Land Rover products. It's really quite that simple.
garrett said:
They may have no intention of discontinuing them, that's true. Until I can buy one over here, though, I won't be sending them Christmas cards.
That really ticks me off. I really, really want one of those.Cheers,
Kennith
garrett said:
I call bullshit.
First, if you're not breaking Toyota birfields, then you're not "abusing" the trucks as hard as you say. I've seen two birfs break in pavement when the truck was in low range and the throttle was floored. Toyota birfs are very weak - marginally stronger than a Rover CV. That's not their only weak spot, but that's a start.
Second, you never seem to know what breaks on Rovers. You compare some utilitarian Toyota to a Land Rover border-line-luxury Discovery or Range Rover and expect the same outcome for the two vehicles. That's like comparing a BSA to a modern Hinkley Triumph; or a 69 Rally Sport to a ZO6. The best comparison you've made is the FJ80, but you're not fooling anyone there.
D Chapman said:
Call it whatever you like. I've worked with both Land Rover and Toyota platforms for training for over 6 years now. Not just a few times a month, but more like two weeks out of the month.
At BCDS we abused the trucks over and over. Never did we break a birfield. At least not in the years I worked there. We lost one rear diff (gears were worn to nothing after 250K miles). Never broke an axle on a Toyota ever. Either at BCDS or OEX.
At OEX we don't abuse trucks. We teach them how NOT to in order to preserve the vehicle for extended periods of time.
Everything breaks on Land Rovers. I've gone around and around with you on this and have listed everything that has over my experience with them.
We did have our first big failure with an FJ80 though. Lost a transmission on a '91 FJ80 with 171K on it.
I've told Bruce at OEX that I don't want any more Land Rovers at the VA location unless they are new 2010 Defenders. It's just becoming too much of a pain in the ass. The DIs don't leak they vomit oil, the head gaskets fail, the u joints break all the time, the radiators last 100K, motor mounts are ALWAYS breaking, etc.
DIs don't compare to FJ80s in any respect. The 80s are better in every respect across the board. You can call bullshit all you like, but I have years of first hand experience with both platforms.
I love my Land Rovers and prefer them in many cases, but I can't deny Toyota's for what they are........superior products to Land Rover and most other makes.
As I've stated before Toyota's are not some holy grail of vehicles, but Land Rover pale in comparison when it comes to reliability on and off road.
Again, you're trying to use a vehicle designed, built, and promoted as a luxury vehicle and now you're getting upset that it does not preform to the "off-road training standards" you're trying to place the vehicles through.
Sure, you're going to break motor mounts. The Rover motor mounts are shit. They're a chunk of rubber designed to absorb engine vibrations. Just like a roto-flex. A roto-flex was not designed to be taken into abusive conditions on a regular basis. Running those shitty motor mounts is about as clever as running a roto-flex off-road regularly. That's why companies such as Equip designed, and built, and motor mount for your Land Rover that will take the abuse. But you choose not to install these motor mounts. Who's fault is that? Land Rovers?
You claim to break u-joints. We all break u-joints. It happens, even on your precious Toyota's. If you're breaking, or wearing out, more u-joints on your Rovers than you are on your Toyota's, it probably because you're the clever one who lifted the Rovers with a spring lift but never corrected the pinion angles back to stock. Is it Land Rover's problem that you did not lift the truck correctly? That would be like adding Air Conditioning to your One-Ten and not charging the system correctly and when it fails blaming the Land Rover Air Conditioning for being a pile of shit. It's either that or you're installing those pile of shit Made in China u-joints from Napa and wondering why they do not last.
I'll agree with you that it's hard to find a good, quality, 1300-series u-joint. It's much easier to find good quality 1310-series u-joints. Spicer, for example. But if you're running good quality u-joints, and your driveline is set-up correctly, there is no reason your u-joints should not last just as long as any other full-time 4wd vehicle, such as the FZJ80. And they do.
Toyota's do not leak oil??? That's a new one to me! Haha. But think about it; what do you have to do to fix a Rover from leaking oil? Front crank seal ($6.00)? Valve cover gaskets ($20.00)? Oil pan gasket (can of Right Stuff)?Is it really that hard to keep a Rover from leaking?
My truck has over 120k on it and the engine is clean of oil. My front crank gasket started leaking a drop here-and-there at at SCC and it took all of 20-minutes to fix once I got home. No more drips.
I'd be a lot more concerned with the steering boxes. A new steering box at 80k for $300.00 sounds like a bigger deal to me. But even then, it's $300 bucks. Who cares? You pay $300 and you're good for another 80k miles, or 5-7 years.
Radiators?? I've seen your trucks, Garrett. The radiators do not rot from the outside-in because they're junk. They do this because you do not clean the leaves and mud out of the radiator.
I know people have issues with radiators on Rovers. I've never had an issue with any of my 4 Discoverys, but I know it does happen. But come on, lol, how many radiators have you had to replace? One in August of 2008?
Now if you're commenting on Proline radiators designed to fit Land Rovers, then I'll agree with you. Those are shit. But that's like putting a Procomp shock on a Rover and calling Land Rover shocks crap.
As for head gaskets, yes, they fail. But Toyota head gaskets never fail? Want to talk about the 3.0L Toyota V6? Haha. I've never had a head gasket fail. I've also never had a DII where this seems to be a little more common. How many head-jobs have you done? None?
The reason you like the Defenders is because they're more utilitarian and better suit what you're doing with the vehicles. Just like your BJ's and HJ's. But I would put a Rover head-to-head with a FJ80 any time. They're both heavy as shit vehicles designed to fit more of the luxury crowd. Both vehicles are not going to last nearly as long as an HJ or a One-Ten in those conditions. It's not because they're a pile of shit, it's because they've got components that are not necessarily designed to be beat on off-road.
I think my vehicle is set-up well and I would not hesitate to do anything with it, day-in and day-out, that you do with your training vehicles. I know my vehicle would not fail. It's not like I have a lot of money in my vehicles, either. But I know it's set-up right and it's set-up to last. I also know my gas petal is not going to get stuck on the floor or that my brakes are not going to fail.
Sure, you're going to break motor mounts. The Rover motor mounts are shit. They're a chunk of rubber designed to absorb engine vibrations. Just like a roto-flex. A roto-flex was not designed to be taken into abusive conditions on a regular basis. Running those shitty motor mounts is about as clever as running a roto-flex off-road regularly. That's why companies such as Equip designed, and built, and motor mount for your Land Rover that will take the abuse. But you choose not to install these motor mounts. Who's fault is that? Land Rovers?
You claim to break u-joints. We all break u-joints. It happens, even on your precious Toyota's. If you're breaking, or wearing out, more u-joints on your Rovers than you are on your Toyota's, it probably because you're the clever one who lifted the Rovers with a spring lift but never corrected the pinion angles back to stock. Is it Land Rover's problem that you did not lift the truck correctly? That would be like adding Air Conditioning to your One-Ten and not charging the system correctly and when it fails blaming the Land Rover Air Conditioning for being a pile of shit. It's either that or you're installing those pile of shit Made in China u-joints from Napa and wondering why they do not last.
I'll agree with you that it's hard to find a good, quality, 1300-series u-joint. It's much easier to find good quality 1310-series u-joints. Spicer, for example. But if you're running good quality u-joints, and your driveline is set-up correctly, there is no reason your u-joints should not last just as long as any other full-time 4wd vehicle, such as the FZJ80. And they do.
Toyota's do not leak oil??? That's a new one to me! Haha. But think about it; what do you have to do to fix a Rover from leaking oil? Front crank seal ($6.00)? Valve cover gaskets ($20.00)? Oil pan gasket (can of Right Stuff)?Is it really that hard to keep a Rover from leaking?
My truck has over 120k on it and the engine is clean of oil. My front crank gasket started leaking a drop here-and-there at at SCC and it took all of 20-minutes to fix once I got home. No more drips.
I'd be a lot more concerned with the steering boxes. A new steering box at 80k for $300.00 sounds like a bigger deal to me. But even then, it's $300 bucks. Who cares? You pay $300 and you're good for another 80k miles, or 5-7 years.
Radiators?? I've seen your trucks, Garrett. The radiators do not rot from the outside-in because they're junk. They do this because you do not clean the leaves and mud out of the radiator.
I know people have issues with radiators on Rovers. I've never had an issue with any of my 4 Discoverys, but I know it does happen. But come on, lol, how many radiators have you had to replace? One in August of 2008?
Now if you're commenting on Proline radiators designed to fit Land Rovers, then I'll agree with you. Those are shit. But that's like putting a Procomp shock on a Rover and calling Land Rover shocks crap.
As for head gaskets, yes, they fail. But Toyota head gaskets never fail? Want to talk about the 3.0L Toyota V6? Haha. I've never had a head gasket fail. I've also never had a DII where this seems to be a little more common. How many head-jobs have you done? None?
The reason you like the Defenders is because they're more utilitarian and better suit what you're doing with the vehicles. Just like your BJ's and HJ's. But I would put a Rover head-to-head with a FJ80 any time. They're both heavy as shit vehicles designed to fit more of the luxury crowd. Both vehicles are not going to last nearly as long as an HJ or a One-Ten in those conditions. It's not because they're a pile of shit, it's because they've got components that are not necessarily designed to be beat on off-road.
I think my vehicle is set-up well and I would not hesitate to do anything with it, day-in and day-out, that you do with your training vehicles. I know my vehicle would not fail. It's not like I have a lot of money in my vehicles, either. But I know it's set-up right and it's set-up to last. I also know my gas petal is not going to get stuck on the floor or that my brakes are not going to fail.