No 3rd/4th

[DiscoJen]

Gonna try here too to see if anyone else has any ideas.

Last year when I moved, I had to tow the Series to the new house on a 2 wheel dolly. Gearbox was fine before this point. A few weeks ago I finally my got my truck running good enough to be able to drive. Reverse and 1st/2nd are just great, I can drive around all day using only those gears...but I couldn't get into 3rd/4th. The shifter just wouldn't budge at all. So the problem has to be directly related to towing, or from sitting 16 months without being driven.

Took the top cover & shifter off to check everything out. Detent balls/springs seem fine. But still couldn't get the fork shaft for 3rd/4th to move. Removed all the forks to get a closer look. Whacked the synchro good with a wooden dowel and hammer and that freed it up a bit, but it still only moves about a 1/2" total, which probably isn't enough to engage 3rd/4th if put back together.

Gearbox is clean, not finding anything mangled up in there. Synchro clips seem to be intact.

Should I keep whacking the synchro to free it up more? Any other ideas, or am I SOL and need to replace the synchro?

Thanks Dwebbers!

 

[apg]

I forget...is this a IIa or III? The only real difference internally is that the III gearbox has synchros on all gears, while the IIa only has 'em on 3-4. If you double clutch between 1 and 2 and then can't get to 3 or 4, then that synchro sure seems to be the problem. I may have a spare (ordered in error)...but then the problem is finding it in the morass I call a garage.... It could be lost until some future civilization does archaeological research.

Cheers

 

[DiscoJen]

It's a IIa. So it sounds like I need to replace the synchro?

I wonder what the heck could have happened during towing to cause this?

 

[D Chapman]

Try double clutching?

 

[DiscoJen]

It's a non-syncho so double clutching is required between 1st/2nd, but I tried on 3rd/4th and the shifter still wouldn't budge. Even with all the forks removed the synchro doesn't move enough to engage. Gawd I hate the smell of 90w.

 

[D Chapman]

I bought a Series transmission for $6.00 at the MAR auction back in 2004. I would ship it to you, but I don't know where it is.

 

[DiscoJen]

$6? You got ripped off!

This is one job that I just am not interested in tackling. I think I've gotten lazy in my old age. It could just be that I am irritated that something as simple as towing my truck caused this. Of all the stupid damn things.

 

[apg]

The 3/4 synchro ring has these little springs...kinda look like leaf springs, but an inch or so long. One of mine broke - which I found in the sump during the next oil change. But the synchro still worked, and that was 50,000 miles ago....

You might want to try a magnet on a flexible wand (buy one - don't improvise, 'cause you don't want that bugger going astray) and 'fish' the bottom for any broken bits. This is easy, 'cause the top is already off and the tranny case is aluminium. You could also drain the box and paw though for broken bits, but then you don't like the smell of 90 wt.

Sidebar - Why can't synthetic 90 wt smell good - like flowers - or beer?

The IIa and III gearboxes are almost the same internally. Other than the 'missing' 1/2 synchro, the only other difference is the bevel on the reverse gear. The IIa style is flat-cut, while the III has a very slight bevel so that it is pulled into tighter engagement when reverse is selected. Sometimes with a worn IIa box, you have to hold reverse in position under hard use. Externally, there are lots of differences under the bellhousing. If time and money were irrelevant, I'd have a IIa bellhousing and Series III internals.

BTW - get used to the smell of 90 wt! And buy it by the 5 gal. pail!

Cheers

 

[apg]

I wonder what the heck could have happened during towing to cause this?

There's a cautionary note affixed to the firewall. It must be important, 'cause it's red AND IN ALL CAPS.

Something like 'when the vehicle is on tow, select fourth gear with transfer case in neutral.'

I have heard anecdotal tales of woe when this wasn't followed or the gearbox(es) 'jumped' into or out of gear. The oil has to get flung about to lube everything and without this lubrication, all kinds of bad things happen.

I hope that isn't your case....

Cheers

 

[DiscoJen]

I am pretty sure everything was put into neutral, but I didn't hook everything up. It still wasn't able to be moved so the front driveshaft was dropped then it rolled. I appreciated the help from friends though, so I don't put any of the blame on them. It was team effort in destruction.

I can clearly see the two synchro springs and they look perfect. I didn't find any mangled bits of the 3rd spring, but I also can't get my fingers wrapped around the syncho enough to see if it's still there. I'll try again over the weekend to see if I can find it and that will at least confirm that it's not the springs.

Other than that, what else other than a knackered synchro cause it to not move?

 

[bmohan55]

Here is a thread from Rovers North forum who had the exact same problem after towing...

http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11167

 

[DiscoJen]

hahahaha That's me. I posted here today to see if anyone here has some other ideas. SeriesShorty is my "nice" alter-ego.

 

[DiscoJen]

Was able to rotate the synchro and found that 2 out of the 3 synchro springs weren't seated correctly. Hopefully the next break in the weather will allow me to install new springs and be back on the road...finally.

 

[BCA93rangeroverlwb]

PM'd you

 

[Ren Ching]

If you tow with the gearbox in neutral and the transfer case slips into gear (or is left in gear) then the wheels will spin the driveline up to and including the mainshaft of the gearbox. The mainshaft will spin at 4th gear road speed but since the engine is not turning, the rest of the transmission, that is all the gears, bushings, bearings, and the layshaft (countershaft) will remain locked in place. The mainshaft will be spinning but the gears and bushings on it will not be. Since the rapidly spinning mainshaft is not sitting in oil (only the layshaft is partially submerged) it will not be lubricated. The bushings the gears ride on will begin to seize to the mainshaft, gall, and eventually wear out. And you might melt the plastic bearing between the mainshaft and the input shaft. Now, if the transmission was in 4th, and the transfer case was to slip into gear, it will try to turn the engine, and the driver will probably notice the increased drag. Since a gear is engaged the mainshaft will drive the layshaft and throw oil so everything will be ok.

That said, sounds like you have a different problem. I hope. A friend of mine had a broken 3/4 synchro spring at the Winter Romp this year and was able to remove and replace it through the top of the gearbox.

Good luck!

 

[DiscoJen]

Thanks Ren, I appreciate the detailed explanation.

I got all the synchro clips out last night as I found two of them not seated properly in my prior investigatin. But the synchro still doesn't move more than 3/8" forward. I would assume that with all the clips out and it should be able to be manually moved.

:banghead:

 

[Ren Ching]

Photos might help a bit but in the meantime, try rotating the hand brake drum to see if you can get the splines lined up to allow the synchro to engage 3rd or 4th gear.

 

[Jason T.]

The springs help center the synchro on the shaft so if you removed them it may not be centered and not lined up. Try what Dave suggested and rotate the tranny brake drum by hand while trying to move the synchro. Better yet, just put the new springs in!

 

[DiscoJen]

OK, so I've finally got the darn gearbox out and on a short table to work on it. That damn thing is heavy!

Am I wrong to assume that my issue of not being able to move the synchro into 3rd/4th means that my problem is somewhere from the synchro forward?

I'm getting ready to take the bellhousing off now to have a peak. Just nervous cause I know absolutely ZERO about gearboxes.

 

[JackW]

The Land Rover series gearbox is probably THE best one to learn on - pretty simple and easily understood.
Just follow the manual and all will be well - its one of the best sections in the manual.