Series Diesel "Cold Start" button?

[jeepfiend]

I recently acquired a RHD Series III diesel. My question pertains to the cold start button on dash, just below and to the right of the steering wheel. Is this button for heating the glow plugs? I can see no key position or anything else that would be used as a glow plug switch. I assume this is used for this purpose. Any help would be appreciated. It does seem to start better when I depress the button. I assume it means it is ready to start when the orange indicator on the speedo comes on.

 

[ISUZUROVER]

Yes, the cold start button works the glow plugs (if there is no position on the key to heat the glow plugs). In cold weather you should:

(1) hold down cold start for 15-30 seconds
(2) Start cranking engine over with foot hard on accelerator until it starts

Another method which also helps is to crank the engine over for a short time before hitting the glow plug switch - this puts some fuel in the cylinders which is then heated by the glow plugs, and it seems to start even better.

Cheers,

Ben.

 

[antichrist]

One caveat with glow plugs in general. They are designed for 12v. You can burn them out if you use them when jumpstarting as the good car is putting out around 14v.
If you need to jumpstart a diesel, hook to the good vehicle, run it some at high idle to get the dead battery charged a bit, then shut it down. Preheat, then start the dead car.

 

[ISUZUROVER]

One caveat with glow plugs in general. They are designed for 12v. You can burn them out if you use them when jumpstarting as the good car is putting out around 14v.
If you need to jumpstart a diesel, hook to the good vehicle, run it some at high idle to get the dead battery charged a bit, then shut it down. Preheat, then start the dead car.

I doubt you could EVER damage a glow plug by using them when you are jumpstarting a truck. for starters (in a series LR) the glow plugs are series wired - each one is only about 2V and the ballast resistor accounts for the rest. If the voltage was too high you would be more likely to damage the ballast resistor. Secondly, a healthy battery should be producing at least 13V even without the alternator running, and thirdly - I have known people to disconnect 1 of the 4 glow plugs from the circuit - so that the remaining 3 "see" a much higher voltage than they are designed for (they claim this gives faster glow plug warm up in the european winter), and none have reported the glow plugs failing prematurely.

 

[jeepfiend]

Thanks for the info, I figured it was the glow plug button. I grew up on a farm, and quite a few of our smaller tractors had glow plugs. It does make it start better, I just wish I could drive it. I just bought it on eBay, and I got totally ripped off. The guy said it had a solid chassis and underbody, I guess he meant solid rust. I am trying to get my money back, or at least some money back, but it is not working out. It looks like I am in for a frame-off! My wife is none too happy about it. I bought it, hoping to be able to drive it, but the frame is so rusted there are holes around one of the spring hangers. I don't think it is too safe. I think that the old Series rigs are some of the coolest out there, but I really wasn't looking for another resto project. I have three older Jeeps in various stages of teardown, I really didn't need another project. Oh well, at least it will be nice when I am done.

 

[ISUZUROVER]

How bad is it? if there are just a few holes in the chassis it may not be too bad - the chassis are over-engineered to begin with. Can you post some pics of the rust? Do you have a welder?

 

[antichrist]

I doubt you could EVER damage a glow plug by using them when you are jumpstarting a truck. for starters (in a series LR) the glow plugs are series wired - each one is only about 2V and the ballast resistor accounts for the rest. If the voltage was too high you would be more likely to damage the ballast resistor. Secondly, a healthy battery should be producing at least 13V even without the alternator running, and thirdly - I have known people to disconnect 1 of the 4 glow plugs from the circuit - so that the remaining 3 "see" a much higher voltage than they are designed for (they claim this gives faster glow plug warm up in the european winter), and none have reported the glow plugs failing prematurely.

Well, I'm speaking from personal experience here, not hearsay.
I do know how Series glow plugs are wired, as I've rebuilt several Series Diesels, from the leakoff pipes to the sump. And I know the trick of removing one glow plug from the circut. However, there was/is a conversion kit to convert them to a parrallel 12v system, and without seeing it, I've no idea if that's been fitted.
BTW, a 12v automotive battery is 12.6 volts (6 cells x 2.1 volts each).

But anyway, jeepfiend appeared new to diesels, so why risk problems while he's learning the vehicle? But it's ultimately his call.


Jeepfiend..I've been driving series rigs since I bought my first in in '74. I've seen and driven them with incredibly rotten frames (not that I suggest you do). I wouldn't do anything to it at ALL if you're trying to get your money back (btw, ebay has some sort of fraud help), but if you can't, take a weldor's chipping hammer and go over the frame with the pointed end. You'll find out were all the bad spots are. As you may already know, nearly every frame part for the series is available, so you can just replace the bad bits, if you want to. Good luck!

 

[jeepfiend]

Not really new to diesels, just new to small diesels. Most of the small ones on the farm, have a key position to heat the plugs.
I am not new to restorations either. I have put a number of Jeeps back together. As a matter of fact, I have one in the middle of a frame-off right now. I am a decent welder, but I really did not want to have another project (sounds like a contradiction if I bought an old series). The eBay listing said the chassis and underbody were solid. He also said it starts and runs with no problems. He forgot to mention the fact that the temp gauge hits the red within a quarter mile. He also neglected to mention that the fuel stop does not work. I have to either dump the clutch, or get out and raise the hood and engage the fuel stop by hand. In general, it does not match the description at all. He was really careful in his listing to hit all the trouble spots with the old Series rigs. He said the frame was good, he said the lights all worked. He knew just what to say. Had I known the condition, I would not have paid more than $1500. He claims that the rig was "as-is". I have always understood this to mean that if it breaks after I buy it, it is my tough luck. I don't think it applies if it does not match the description. So far he is sticking to this. I guess he forgot abou the part in the listing where it says that he accepts full repsonsibility for the listing and the item offered.
eBay told me that since I did not file a complaint within 35 days of the auction end I have no recourse with them. The problem is, it took that long just to get it out of Florida. Word to the wise, don't buy a rover in Florida, in the middle of three hurricanes. And then the delivery truck broke down, costing even more time. I notified eBay one day after I got the rig. But they say they can't do anything. I think that eBay is just becoming a forum for crooks to peddle stolen goods, and for scam artist to sell their crap. I am probably not going to use eBay again. I have had a number of bad experiences in the last few months, so I think I am done with it.
As far as the frame, it would not bother me, except the corrosion if particularly prolific around the left rear front spring hanger. I don't think I would even need a chipping hammer to put holes in it. I have not done anything to it, because I really don't want to touch it right now, but I am confident I can poke large holes in the frame with just my finger. I don't want this guy to be able to accuse me of screwing with it. If it wasn't such a high stress area, I would not worry but I have torn the spring hangers from a few Jeep frames that were no where near this rusted.

 

[antichrist]

I'm assuming you can document the delivery date. I'd keep pressing ebay that you operated in good faith. Try certified mail, not just email or phone calls. If you do that, be sure to reference your communication with them in the letter. If they don't dispute you contacted them the day after you got it, that's a point in your favor.
Also, did you communicate with the seller via US mail at all? I believe that using the USPS for any part of the transaction can possibly allow federal fraud charges (I'm not 100% sure on this, but it's worth checking).
I don't think "as-is" covers outright lying.
Best of luck.

 

[jeepfiend]

The state of Utah Division of Consumer Protection agrees with me as well. I immediately sent everything to the IFCC and the Utah State Attorney General. They are going after the guy, but I think he plans on fighting it. The state investigator told me they have at least $5k in fines they can hit him with. They are going to give him the option of refunding my money, including shipping before they proceed with criminal charges. The guy is pretty smug, so I think he figures he can beat the rap. What he may or may not know, is that over 70% of all internet fraud, (including auction fraud) originates in Florida. That means that Florida is always ready to cooperate with other states in cases like this. That kind of reputation makes it pretty hard for the reputable business people, so they don't mess around when they find a crook. The state investigator told me that if he does not cooperate they will fine him, file criminal charges, and probably give him more fines as well. In the process they will contact authorities in Florida and they will go and scrutinize his entire operation. He had better be squeaky clean when this occurs, or I think he will be pretty sorry. The easy route for him would be to refund my money, and the state will just let everything go. They told me if he does not pay the fines, they will send him to collections, which will result in a lien on him if he doesn't pay. The investigator said it is a clear case of fraud, so it would greatly behoove him to cooperate. I sent detailed photographs of the vehicle to the state and the IFCC so they have pretty good evidence.

I have learned a few things through all this.
1. Don't buy anything on-line unless they will take paypal or visa.
2. Auction descriptions are often very misleading, if the car is not close enough to go look at it, don't buy it.
3. Don't buy anything on-line from anyone in the state of Florida.
4. If it sounds too good to be true, it is!
5. eBay fraud insurance on vehicles only applies if you file within 35 days of the end of the auction. They absolutely will not budge on this. I would have filed sooner, but it was 32 days before I even got the car, and I spent the next few days trying to resolve this with the seller. If you buy a rig on eBay, and you think you got taken, don't hesitate to fill out every single fraud complaint you can find. Time is of the essence in these cases.

I really feel pretty stupid, letting this guy take advantage of me. He hit all the right points on old series rigs. And I thought "no reserve, and it has all this, I gotta have it!". In hindsight, it really was too good to be true. Outside of being a Series III diesel, it wasn't anything he said it was. I will never buy another rig on eBay, I think that eBay is more and more becoming a forum for crooks to peddle junk and stolen goods. There is some good stuff and some honest sellers, but why take the chance.

If it doesn't work out with the state, I am going to be selling a Jeep and starting a Series restoration. If it would have been what he said, I would happily sell the Jeep, but since it is so rusted, I hate to sell my Jeep. I will just have to wait and see what happens.

I sent the payment by certified mail, I will have to look into that angle. eBay won't do anything. I have even spoken to eBay executives, and they say they can't do anything. They keep saying that they are just the middle man, and they have no accountability for the transaction. Needless to say, eBay is off my list of good internet sites.

 

[antichrist]

Sounds like you're on a good track to get it resolved. I hope it works out for you. One other thing if yu haven't already, print out the ebay listing, if it's still available. Or contact ebay (by letter) and explain the ongoing criminal investigation and see if you can get a copy of the listing from their archives.
And I wouldn't even start the rig at this point. If the engine blows or something, it'll just make it harder for you to resolve.

Let us know how it works out.

 

[jeepfiend]

Unfortunately and fortunately, it is just sitting. I moved it to get it out of my way, and aside from that, I am not touching it. I don't want this guy to have any claim against me if I manage to get my money back and get this thing returned. It takes all I have to not drive it. I just want to fix a few of the little things and drive it. However, I am afraid if I used it for anything but road duty, the spring hanger would not last too long.
Series rigs are just like the old Jeeps to me, they are too much fun to not drive. Some people don't like the road manners and the noise, but that just makes it fun to me. I like rigs that have good "mechanical presence". I wish it would have been what he said. This whole thing has put way too much strain on me. It almost ruined my marriage. I think she is over it now, but I know that if I walk by it more than twice a day, it really gets my hackles up. I will let you know how it turns out. Once this is finished, I will start looking for another Series (or rebuilding this one), but the next one will be thoroughly inspected and test driven prior to even discussing price. eBay can go pound sand, I am done with them!

 

[antichrist]

snip
I know that if I walk by it more than twice a day, it really gets my hackles up.
snip

Put a tarp over it