Spring Rates....

[Owen Birch]

OK, what's the deal here?

Why are people putting Heavy Duty Springs on their Rovers?
Would someone please explain to me why, in addition to adding two inches to the springs, you'd want to also increase the spring rate? Are people really loading up their Rovers with that much weight that would justify over 250 pound springs? And how many people actually off-road with that much weight? Don't most people unload the bar-b-q before hitting the trails?

Please enlighten me, I'm adding a 2-inch lift, and even when my SE7's full of people (stock) it doesn't sag that much with OEM springs, so why would I want significantly stiffer springs with the lift?

Anyone have the OEM spring rates?

 

[syoung]

240 is a perfect rate for a 2" lift... I suppose if going 3" then one would go with a higher rate to control the body sway to some extent. Some of the spring rates on lift springs are so heavy that it rattles your teeth loose... but if towing or expedition use with lots of gear I suppose it would make sense. I run 295's on the rear of mine only because I tow large stuff... my DI has 2" 240 linears in the rear and it has a better ride, but even the small camper makes the back end come down a little bit.
Stock DI rears are 207.84

 

[rmuller]

Also to compensate for upgraded parts.. steel front&rear bumper, plus a winch, etc.. get heavy and stock rate springs will sag..

 

[DiscoTodd]

Good for when you pick up fat chicks too!!!!

 

[flyfisher11]

Good for when you pick up fat chicks too!!!!

:rofl:

 

[Slunnie]

Fat chicks need love too, and when you got 2 in the back also, you need HD springs.

Seriously though, play 4WDing... yep we pull all of the weight out.

Touring - She's loaded to GVM and beyond. Bar, winch, sliders, rear bar, long range fuel tanks, roofrack, fridge, shelves, additional spare tyre and already my thing is about 2.6T - Then add people, water, camping equipment, kit, food etc and she's nudging 3T. Now drive that through the Simpson Desert and 2" at 250lb/in craps itself, and even worse are the shocks.

The Disco2 needs good springs and shocks in the rear especially to do that loaded touring work.

 

[mkronmal]

Are people really loading up their Rovers with that much weight that would justify over 250 pound springs? And how many people actually off-road with that much weight?

Yes, and I do.

 

[Owen Birch]

slu and mkr,

OK, so you have me sold on the higher spring rates for long trips with serious weight, but do you do that with your Rovers a lot? Doesn't your Rover ride like crap when it's empty? Would it make sense to have a set of springs with a lower rate for more everyday and low weight-hauling excursion, and a heavier set for the long trips? It takes what, 4 hours to change all 4 springs by yourself.... Bad idea, too much of a PITA, or is the ride not that bad empty?

Thanks!

 

[mkronmal]

I have an RTE lift and the stoutest springs they make for a D1. I also have Bilstein 7100s. You can see the RTE bumper and Superwinch up front.

My ride empty is very nice, nicer then pre-lift with work stock shocks. I also replaced all the bushes at the same time. When loaded, the ride is equally pleasant, although off camber with crap on the roof can make your naughty bits shrink up a bit.

I would recommend that combo without hesitation. If considering RTE, give them a call and talk about your driving habits and what you want to accomplish. They will put you on the right path. If you are thinking anout the OME route, give John or Ho a call at ExpeditionExchange and they will set you on the right path as well.

Cheers!

P.S. Expedition = Offroading with lots of crap

 

[The Limey]

I'm running the OME extra HD springs in my disco...Why?
Heavy bumper and winch, dual batteries fridge in the rear, powertank in the rear,chainsaw,tools, jerrycans and so on and this stuff doesnt get left behind...you never know what you may come up agains in the boonies.
Plus I have been known to load up my roofrack beyond its rated capacity more than once...no sag with my springs...

Marcus

 

[Slunnie]

slu and mkr,

OK, so you have me sold on the higher spring rates for long trips with serious weight, but do you do that with your Rovers a lot? Doesn't your Rover ride like crap when it's empty? Would it make sense to have a set of springs with a lower rate for more everyday and low weight-hauling excursion, and a heavier set for the long trips? It takes what, 4 hours to change all 4 springs by yourself.... Bad idea, too much of a PITA, or is the ride not that bad empty?

Thanks!

I guess really thats what I've set the Discovery up to do. It has been built as a touring machine. The ride is stiff, and a lot of the stiffness also comes from the shock absorbers. I've run soft shocks in it before, and they ride really well, but the shock absorbers are the things that give you most of the traction from a suspension perspective. Soft shocks are nice until you run a rough road or you're on corrugations and simply vibrate yourself straight off the side of the road. For those that read Bilstein specs, I'm running 400/100 rears and 360/80 fronts, they are stiff. On the flip side, the truck is totally controlled even when fully loaded. There is no bounce in the suspension to make you travel sick, the ride uncomfortable and the axles are always planted. The springs are stiff as they are what needs to carry the load, and there's a hell of a lot on it. For the springs, I guess it just depends on what you want from the truck. If you're not running a lot of weight then stiff springs definately are not the go, but the Disco2 is sensitive in the rear suspension to weight changes and in my opinion needs stiffer springs as the load is so overhung pas the rear axle. Ride and the other hand are different. To help compromise, the springs that I run I managed to spec up myself and have manufactured in Austalia. They are 300-340lb/in which reads stiff, but the 300 rate is effective until there is 1" of further compression from static ride height, so that softens the ride a bit, and it stiffens as load goes on board. The front also is set stiff. I think the problem with most Rover and aftermarket Rover springs is that they are sprung to soft and are not able to support the weight of the vehcile, especially if a bullbar goes on. A winch just completely stuffs everything up. All of the 180lb springs that I have seen will drop back to standard under the weight of a bar except the long (HD) 180lb/in from OME - It takes about 220-230lb/in just to maintain ride height!

Changing springs for use. Thats something that I have considered, but was realistic enough to know that I'm too slack to do it.

 

[syoung]

You can use a longer spring with a lower (relative to the super HD spring) rate to make height... you use spring length to get height and spring rates to handle the load. Shocks don't "provide traction" at all- their job to is control the spring. For people who truly built their truck to be a trail rig with lots of gear, or people who tow, heavy rates make a lot of sense. For the casual offroader, they don't.

 

[Mike_Rupp]

Steve, as a guy that does fire roads, I'd think you'd know what Slunnie is talking about. If the shocks aren't valved correctly, they don't control the spring effectively and you get the vibrations that he writes about. In a sense, shocks do provide traction as they keep the tires in contact with the ground.

I think heavy duty springs are the best choice for a casual offroader. My Land Rover ends up being an all-purpose truck. It has to be able to take me fly fishing (which you might call off-roading), camping, actual off-roading, you get the picture. My point is that I would rather have a spring setup to deal with the outer limits of what I do and live with the slightly firmer ride.

 

[syoung]

If you're running washboard roads fast enough that you are losing traction, you're driving improperly. How is it that the shock will force the wheel back down to regain traction faster? It doesn't. If the shock is valved too aggressively, the wheel wont move up and down fast enough to stay planted. I guess if you want to run the Score 1000 or something you would have that concern.

 

[XtremeMarine]

I put on the RTE 2" lift, and opted to go for the most HD springs they offered. Why? Bescause I tow boats in the 3500-6000 lb range at least once a week. I've had to tow a boat over 7000 lbs once when my springs were stock, and my stock tires rubbed the inner fenderwells. Now with the RTE set-up, I can tow 5000 all day long, and my truck does not know it is there until I brake. But that's what the bull bar is for. LOL. And that's with 32's on it. When I off-road, I am set with a generator, portable welder, cooler, air compressor, camping gear, and car-jacking resistance equipment. My truck actually rides better than it did stock. So, in my opinion RTE really do there homework. The owner and one of his employees talked to me for almost an hour before recommending a set-up to me, and it has worked out perfectly. If you change springs, I would get the advice based on your driving, not the driving of others. We can give you examples, but in the end, how you use your truck is the deciding factor.

 

[Mike_Rupp]

So driving 35 down a straight washboard trail is "driving improperly"? Steve, you just might be the most prolific poster on the internet in LR forums, but I wonder if you even do any fire roads. So if I'm following my brother down a washboard road to get to a trail in Moab and he's going straight as an arrow, and my Disco's rear end is sliding around, don't you think the shocks come into play?

 

[mkronmal]

I think the key is that the shock will dampen the oscillation of the spring, resulting in increased tire to road contact. The shock does not "push down" the tire onto the surface, but it does dampen the oscillation whcih causes the intermittant tire to surface contact.

And yes, you could overdampen as Steve indicated. Its all about the spring/shock system working together.

 

[syoung]

If the shocks are toast- the spring will bounce and it'll be all over the place, yes... that's true. I'm not saying otherwise...

 

[Slunnie]

If you don't think the shocks give traction, then try pulling them out and driving dirt roads (don't actually do this, you'll probably crash on the first corner). I've spent a lot of time and money with different shock rates and this is most definately what I've found. The adjustable shocks are a good way to try it yourself. With minimal damping your tyres become like bouncing basketballs, although to a less obvious extent. A lot of people seem to think that stiff shocks stop the wheels moving and the suspension working, but this is all misguided theory, as in practice shocks are nowhere even remotely near that stiff. In fact there are many people that run dual shock setups in Australia, with excellent results and the shocks I'm now running are at least 50% stiffer than the Aus spec Bilsteins, and only offering better performance.

 

[Slunnie]

<snip> Shocks don't "provide traction" at all- their job to is control the spring. <snip>

If the shocks are toast- the spring will bounce and it'll be all over the place, yes... that's true. I'm not saying otherwise...

OK, I don't know what you're saying now to be honest. The tyres make the traction and the shock helps stop the tyre bouncing so that it can gain traction by maintaining contact with the ground, so that when you drive a rough trail you can do so safely.