Tellico
- Thread starter Leslie
- Start date
PS: Don't get me wrong, I'm all for protecting trout; but, there are ways you can implement protective measures for streams w/o shutting down access.....
D
D Chapman
Guest
That's the hard part to fight, Leslie. These people will use the "trout" as the escape ghost. If the wheelers find a fix to the trout endangerment problem, they will them push their attention to something else, like the earthworm.
Of course there are ways to protect the "trout", but what these 4x4 groups are going to have to do is reach some sort of compromise, that works in our favor, to make these groups happy. Berms, bridges, vegetation, etc.......
But, honestly, did you think some place like Tellico was going to escape this? I mentioned years ago that place would end up being a Poster Child. The erosion there even makes MY eyes bleed. Top that with the yahoo's Tellico attracts...... just watch and see, Windrock will soon follow.
IMO, I think all these groups need to get together and support the actual private parks - but do it right. I know there are not too many 10,000 acre tracks of land to do this, but I think that's what it will come down to if you want some difficult trails on the east coast.
Even such places like the GWNF, as small as that is, are facing the same stuff as Tellico. We just need to line up a sneak attack to bounce these other groups off their rocker for a few years while they re-evaluate a counter attack. In the mean time, better management practice need to be implemented - because really, Tellico does not have a change in winning a fight. It's too far gone.
Of course there are ways to protect the "trout", but what these 4x4 groups are going to have to do is reach some sort of compromise, that works in our favor, to make these groups happy. Berms, bridges, vegetation, etc.......
But, honestly, did you think some place like Tellico was going to escape this? I mentioned years ago that place would end up being a Poster Child. The erosion there even makes MY eyes bleed. Top that with the yahoo's Tellico attracts...... just watch and see, Windrock will soon follow.
IMO, I think all these groups need to get together and support the actual private parks - but do it right. I know there are not too many 10,000 acre tracks of land to do this, but I think that's what it will come down to if you want some difficult trails on the east coast.
Even such places like the GWNF, as small as that is, are facing the same stuff as Tellico. We just need to line up a sneak attack to bounce these other groups off their rocker for a few years while they re-evaluate a counter attack. In the mean time, better management practice need to be implemented - because really, Tellico does not have a change in winning a fight. It's too far gone.
I am in the middle of heavily investigating whats going on for my article. I haven't gotten any "on the record" statements yet but I am in the process of collecting them. Here is what I can gather. Some of the stuff listed below may, or may not be correct. This is just what I've gathered from talking to a number of individuals. However, it all seems reasonable.
Hardly anyone in Trout Unlimited actually KNOWS this is going on. A handful of members are actually the ones pressing the issue. Few other T.U. peoples are for the movement.
The USFS recieved 400 letters asking to close the "hardcore" trails for 4 months. They recieved 700 letters asking to close the "hardcore" trails for a year. Hence why Slickrock, Peckerwood, and lower 2, three of the hardest/well known trails of Tellico will be shut down for a year. All other trails will be shut down for 4 months.
The main problem with the fish population is people are overfishing them. The limit is 4, I've personally seen people come outta there with three 100 quart coolers filled up with them. I haven't talked to the USFS yet, but I speculate that they do not "patrol" fishermen. They sure as hell patrol the 4 wheelers, though.
SFWDA lawyers are fighting it, but they are coming under fire for their inability to handle the situation.
The Mayor of Murphy, NC refuses to take a side, or even acknowledge the current battle.
More than just 4 wheeler guys are going to be severely impacted by the closure. Other groups use the trails for other purposes (a lot of dog hunters use the area).
I was up there today. I rode shotgun and we went up Slickrock. Good lord the place is MUDDY!!! I'll be out there again Saturday. I'm trying to eat up as much as I can because this might be it
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Hardly anyone in Trout Unlimited actually KNOWS this is going on. A handful of members are actually the ones pressing the issue. Few other T.U. peoples are for the movement.
The USFS recieved 400 letters asking to close the "hardcore" trails for 4 months. They recieved 700 letters asking to close the "hardcore" trails for a year. Hence why Slickrock, Peckerwood, and lower 2, three of the hardest/well known trails of Tellico will be shut down for a year. All other trails will be shut down for 4 months.
The main problem with the fish population is people are overfishing them. The limit is 4, I've personally seen people come outta there with three 100 quart coolers filled up with them. I haven't talked to the USFS yet, but I speculate that they do not "patrol" fishermen. They sure as hell patrol the 4 wheelers, though.
SFWDA lawyers are fighting it, but they are coming under fire for their inability to handle the situation.
The Mayor of Murphy, NC refuses to take a side, or even acknowledge the current battle.
More than just 4 wheeler guys are going to be severely impacted by the closure. Other groups use the trails for other purposes (a lot of dog hunters use the area).
I was up there today. I rode shotgun and we went up Slickrock. Good lord the place is MUDDY!!! I'll be out there again Saturday. I'm trying to eat up as much as I can because this might be it
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D Chapman said:
Well I think the "ORV's" are being the scape goats, or "escape ghosts(DC)
" and not the trout. They seem to be placing a lot of the blame on the "modified monster trucks", and not on the real problem which is the urban sprawl, and irresponsible logging. These two entities are a lot tougher to keep in check, a be told what to do. There is also the problem with environmentally irresponsible off-roaders. It is up to the responsible off-roader to police the jeepers, I mean bad apples.
I've never been to Tellico, but then again I don't think I'd be very inclined to go either. But 4x4 groups and individuals better clean up their/our image or there won't be anything left on the east.
I am on the fence about these issues and as I said I don't know much about Tellico or the people that wheel there.
But I can comment on many of the 4x4 groups that use several of the locations on the east and if some of these dumb ass redneck groups don't clean up their shit the same thing will happen to sites here in VA and PA.
I see first hand time and time again what Big Dogs and the likes do at The Cove. They are nothing short of trash. I don't care if it is just a few people making it bad for an overall group. Sort out the trash, get rid of them and clean up the image. Period. It's really not that hard to enforce.
It's always good to see that ROAV and other LR groups do a great job of picking up after ourselves or in most cases not even needing to because of the lack of trash and damage they do to a location or site.
Ultimately it is up to the land owners to enforce state and federal laws and go above and beyond that and keep people out that give the "off road" community a black eye.
If these land owers and users don't, the government will step up and use whatever they can to change it. As they should.
I am on the fence about these issues and as I said I don't know much about Tellico or the people that wheel there.
But I can comment on many of the 4x4 groups that use several of the locations on the east and if some of these dumb ass redneck groups don't clean up their shit the same thing will happen to sites here in VA and PA.
I see first hand time and time again what Big Dogs and the likes do at The Cove. They are nothing short of trash. I don't care if it is just a few people making it bad for an overall group. Sort out the trash, get rid of them and clean up the image. Period. It's really not that hard to enforce.
It's always good to see that ROAV and other LR groups do a great job of picking up after ourselves or in most cases not even needing to because of the lack of trash and damage they do to a location or site.
Ultimately it is up to the land owners to enforce state and federal laws and go above and beyond that and keep people out that give the "off road" community a black eye.
If these land owers and users don't, the government will step up and use whatever they can to change it. As they should.
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I think Garrett hit the nail on the head here. Too many people are tearing shit up and leaving a big mark, and crying when their trails get shut down. One problem is, the bad ones outnumber the good ones.
Garrett,
The big dog guys don't really tear up the land. They stay on the trails, or at least the rides I was on. Were you at the September Big Dogs ride?
The biggest killer of ORV parks (or OHV, or whatever you want to call it) is ATVs. A 2WD ATV will do more damage in 100 feet than 3 built rigs hammering down all day.
Sure, the general off road crowd is seen as a bunch of retarded piss poor rednecks. But the reality is most of the wheelers out there are educated, respected, 9-5 normal job holding, upstanding citizens. Or at least, thats what I've seen. No one is out there just to "tear it up".
The future of this sport lies in private land. Most of what I do happens on private land and it is the way that the sport is moving (at least in the southeast). No one is interested in "trail riding" for hours just to get to an obstacle. Private parks offer difficult obstacles within a short distance. No need to drive over long distances to get to the middle of nowhere, just to break down (like what happened today) and then worry how to get out. In contrast, Morris Mountain or River Rock, you can haul a rig no more than 5 minutes to a road accessible to a trailer. Heck, I got spoiled because I was riding along at Tellico and said to myself, "Wow, Slickrock is WAY the heck back in here!!"
The NRA and 4 wheeling are in the same boat, public opinion is against both of them. We'll have to fight to NOT be like Britain and have a ban on bull bars.
The big dog guys don't really tear up the land. They stay on the trails, or at least the rides I was on. Were you at the September Big Dogs ride?
The biggest killer of ORV parks (or OHV, or whatever you want to call it) is ATVs. A 2WD ATV will do more damage in 100 feet than 3 built rigs hammering down all day.
Sure, the general off road crowd is seen as a bunch of retarded piss poor rednecks. But the reality is most of the wheelers out there are educated, respected, 9-5 normal job holding, upstanding citizens. Or at least, thats what I've seen. No one is out there just to "tear it up".
The future of this sport lies in private land. Most of what I do happens on private land and it is the way that the sport is moving (at least in the southeast). No one is interested in "trail riding" for hours just to get to an obstacle. Private parks offer difficult obstacles within a short distance. No need to drive over long distances to get to the middle of nowhere, just to break down (like what happened today) and then worry how to get out. In contrast, Morris Mountain or River Rock, you can haul a rig no more than 5 minutes to a road accessible to a trailer. Heck, I got spoiled because I was riding along at Tellico and said to myself, "Wow, Slickrock is WAY the heck back in here!!"
The NRA and 4 wheeling are in the same boat, public opinion is against both of them. We'll have to fight to NOT be like Britain and have a ban on bull bars.
During certain parts of the year, I am out there on a weekly or at least a monthy basis and I get to see first hand what many of those dirt bags that are part of Big Dogs do. They leave piles and piles of trash on and off the trail. Literally piles........old coolers, broken chairs, TONS of beer cans and auto body parts.
Private or public land is both at risk. Don't think that just because a private land owner has an off road park that the government cannot get involved and make life miserable for the owner. They (the land owner) need to be held responsible for what takes place on their land as it has several repercussions what happens on adjacent lands as well.
I try and distance myself from groups like Big Dogs. Not because I am trying to be some asshole Land Rover elitest, but because I don't like what they do or are about. The mentality of the group on the average is pretty sad and people that trash land as they do have little respect for much else.
I'm not going to get into the debate about how The Cove should deal with groups like Big Dogs, etc., because that is their bread and butter. But I do know for a fact that other off road parks will not allow them to use their facilities.
It's cool to have a good time, get drunk, be an ass, be a tough guy and all that. I am sure I've done my fair share of it, but trashing private or public land is beyond rude and unacceptable. I'm not so concerned about them going off trail and knocking a few trees down.........I'm more pissed off about their dumb as dirt mentality and leaving trash EVERYWHERE which I know they do time and time again.
Private or public land is both at risk. Don't think that just because a private land owner has an off road park that the government cannot get involved and make life miserable for the owner. They (the land owner) need to be held responsible for what takes place on their land as it has several repercussions what happens on adjacent lands as well.
I try and distance myself from groups like Big Dogs. Not because I am trying to be some asshole Land Rover elitest, but because I don't like what they do or are about. The mentality of the group on the average is pretty sad and people that trash land as they do have little respect for much else.
I'm not going to get into the debate about how The Cove should deal with groups like Big Dogs, etc., because that is their bread and butter. But I do know for a fact that other off road parks will not allow them to use their facilities.
It's cool to have a good time, get drunk, be an ass, be a tough guy and all that. I am sure I've done my fair share of it, but trashing private or public land is beyond rude and unacceptable. I'm not so concerned about them going off trail and knocking a few trees down.........I'm more pissed off about their dumb as dirt mentality and leaving trash EVERYWHERE which I know they do time and time again.
garrett said:
No, it isn't cool.
It's behavior like that of a few that gives everyone else a bad name, be it hunting, ORVing, biking, fishing - hell, just being at a park (ask skaters).
My reference is within a group of people at their "site", not the trails. The Big Dog folks take it to an unacceptable level and then some. You can figure with a name like "Big Dogs", who you are dealing with.
This is not to say that ALL people that go on their rides are idiots or dumb rednecks. That is obviously not the case, but there is a good number of them that need to be kicked off the property for good.
This is not to say that ALL people that go on their rides are idiots or dumb rednecks. That is obviously not the case, but there is a good number of them that need to be kicked off the property for good.
Understood. I think we agree.
That one sentence just jumped out at me. I don't know how many times I'm out at some event on public land and see that behavior. I know others see it (re: loss of access to private lands, uproar in local paper, etc.) and it reflects badly on me, and my hobbies. My main reference point is hunting/fishing: when people go shooting up the woods/road signs, drinking, littering, generally being an ass, suddenly, all hunters are "dangerous idiots."
Yep, it's usually a minority who f**k it up for everyone else. They're usually immature/uneducated. But, those of us who know better, should be the ones policing our own. When outsiders (gov't) get involved, we usually end up on the loosing end.
That one sentence just jumped out at me. I don't know how many times I'm out at some event on public land and see that behavior. I know others see it (re: loss of access to private lands, uproar in local paper, etc.) and it reflects badly on me, and my hobbies. My main reference point is hunting/fishing: when people go shooting up the woods/road signs, drinking, littering, generally being an ass, suddenly, all hunters are "dangerous idiots."
Yep, it's usually a minority who f**k it up for everyone else. They're usually immature/uneducated. But, those of us who know better, should be the ones policing our own. When outsiders (gov't) get involved, we usually end up on the loosing end.
I'm an ass at times. When I was 18 I was on a date with a hot girl, heading up to the mountains in SC. As we were heading out of Greenville she was drinking a coke. When she finished it, and before I realized what she was doing, she tossed the bottle out the window. I pulled over and made her go down the embankment to look in the kudzu for it.
If every one of us took that attitude, zero tolerance, there'd be fewer problems on the trails.
Another problem is the car manufacturers themselves. How many times do you see responsible off-roading in comercials, as opposed to an SUV blasting along like a bat out of hell and not clearly on a trail.
As for Tellico and other like places, even if everyone is perfect, the fact remains there are a lot of people using a very limited number of places. There is a middle ground, though probably not a popular one, and that's rather than close them, just limit the numbers who use them. A limited number of daily permits would be one possibility, with certain days set aside for groups to use them. I know that wouldn't be popular, "I don't want to be limited to only going there 3 times a year!" But that's better than never going IMO. Population density and increased usage are a fact, no one is going to change that, and severe erosion will occur no matter how careful people are.
Oh, and no, she never went out with me again. No idea if she would have if I'd ever asked her out again.
If every one of us took that attitude, zero tolerance, there'd be fewer problems on the trails.
Another problem is the car manufacturers themselves. How many times do you see responsible off-roading in comercials, as opposed to an SUV blasting along like a bat out of hell and not clearly on a trail.
As for Tellico and other like places, even if everyone is perfect, the fact remains there are a lot of people using a very limited number of places. There is a middle ground, though probably not a popular one, and that's rather than close them, just limit the numbers who use them. A limited number of daily permits would be one possibility, with certain days set aside for groups to use them. I know that wouldn't be popular, "I don't want to be limited to only going there 3 times a year!" But that's better than never going IMO. Population density and increased usage are a fact, no one is going to change that, and severe erosion will occur no matter how careful people are.
Oh, and no, she never went out with me again. No idea if she would have if I'd ever asked her out again.
LR Max said:
show me how a 10" wheel on an atv does more damage then a 40" wheel on a built jeep. that said, the atv people are the ones getting there heads smashed all day long and aren't helping matters.
nearly everyone on the trails i run in to are "out there to tear it up" and leave beer cans everywhere. i always end up taking a bunch of empty cheap ass beer cans home with me, simply because im trying to help delay the rapid approaching time when we can't wheel freely in this area.
i think nearly everyone here is interested in "trail riding". thats kinda what rovers are about. thats the difference in rovers and rock crawlers. if i wanted to pull off a trailer and drive over some concrete culvert pipes and other obstacles i'd have a crawler or one of those monstrosaties. come on max, don't you like driving you 109 all day in the woods?
what scares me about tellico closing is now places like Caney fork that are very low trafficed will simply get shut down soon also due to a sudden increase of traffic.
There are those in this sport who literally don't know any better than to toss their trash out a window or leave their empties in the woods. For many good ol' boys they have a sense of "entitlement" I believe. The same asshole rednecks that ran around on 3-wheelers drunk and helmetless and thus getting them banned, are the same rednecks leaving their shit in the woods!
BaldEagle said:
Did you ever run Uwharrie back in the day? I'm talking like, 5 years ago? (god, that makes me feel old) There were usually about 5 ATV-sized 3~4 feet deep holes on the trails. Also those guys usually rely on wheelspin, and those spinning wheels move dirt around significantly. They can create rooster tails around 10 feet, and the riders usually like to create rooster tails in EVERY corner. In comparison, a rig on 40s will only spin its tires at an obstacle. From my experience with bigger off road vehicles (I have a reasonable amount of experience) is that the rooster tails usually don't go beyond 5 feet. Heck, there is rarely any sizable amount of dirt moving. And if they move dirt, its in a very localized spot. Not to mention its an obstacle so a little dirt moving is unnoticed. Also with all the gear reduction, the bigger tires probably aren't spinning as fast as the smaller ATV tires. Lastly, most 40" off road tires are STICKY. This means they hook up. The ATV tires don't seem to be that soft. Harder tires means they see more wheelspin (back to my argument on wheelspin).
Also with a 2WD ATV, they rely on momentum to traverse obstacles. And that usually means getting on the throttle, and you've got rooster tails. This goes back to my argument above.
As for my style of wheeling, I prefer the style seen by most of the rest of the 4 wheeling community. I like obstacles. Not just a shallow road bed that I cruise around in 2WD the entire time.
Oh, and Caney Fork is not in any danger of closure. The crowd that does *damage* are attracted to places that have obstacles. Caney has none. So you shouldn't fret too much.
Other than Caney Fork (I know you run that place, I SAW YOU!! Speaking of which, my friend from Georgia and I are waiting for some snow up there, then I'll go back and see whats there) where else do you ride? Where are these "out to tear it up people/beer chuckers" you speak of? Only other places I can think of are Uwharrie (always trash piles there, but I used to volunteer up there back in the day, I haven't wheeled there in yearS), Beasley Knob (don't know anything about that place, wish I did), Tiger (no one knows about that place), Gulches (there is no beer drinking there and all the dirt moving is good so the rock will expose itself) and Tellico. Tellico is in A LOT better shape since they outlawed 2WD vehicles. Same for Uwharrie. I rode up there in May and there were no ATV sized holes. Heck, hardly an ATV out there. It was like...heaven.
Most private parks do not allow ATVs, and if they do, they only allow the 4wd flavor, no 2WD or dirt bikes.
But enough about this or that. The bigger issue is more legally driven. Helping fight with letters and phone calls means more than picking up trash or laying down bails of hay.
When is ROAV going to take an active part in Virginia trails and not just the 2 venues a year it supports? It seems that with the member base we have we at least would have a voice.
On the matter of crowded trails, when you close everything down except for a few spots, you will concentrate traffic in those spots. Something the Land Cruiser, Exterra and NoVA jeepers need to realize so they can limit the size of thier trail runs and not attract the negative impressions.
Kudos to the NoVA Jeepers for the trail clean up they did 2 weeks ago in the GWNF Ralley Springs area.
On the matter of crowded trails, when you close everything down except for a few spots, you will concentrate traffic in those spots. Something the Land Cruiser, Exterra and NoVA jeepers need to realize so they can limit the size of thier trail runs and not attract the negative impressions.
Kudos to the NoVA Jeepers for the trail clean up they did 2 weeks ago in the GWNF Ralley Springs area.