The best front bumper/Bull Bar

jrsimpson

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Jan 3, 2006
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ozscott said:
Cheers Jeff - its a decelerometre and it is (at least on my D1 - never looked on my D2 ) is located back from the crush cans - the crush cans however play an important role in controlling the rate of deformation and therefore deceleration - and its the deceleration thats important for air bag deployment timing.
Cheers

Yes, that's them. Accelerometers based on microelectromechanical (MEMS) devices located behind (frameside) from the crush cans. In a frontal impact large negative accelerations (negative relative to the vehicle front) activate the sensor and deploy the airbags.

What about the crush cans? You're correct again that the crush cans affect the acceleration and thus are important to airbag deployment. However, by absorbing energy in deformation they intentionally decrease the acceleration and hence limit airbag deployment in minor accidents. Replacing the crush cans with a proper bumper will increase the acceleration resulting from a frontal impact. Higher acceleration means the airbags are actually more likely to deploy with a solid bumper and mount than with crush cans.

Cheers, Jeff

edit: beat me to it Peter.

ps....some of the Sheilas get that big also
:rofl:
 

traxlerd

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Jan 29, 2006
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That is pretty much the exact thing I want. The thicker front bar etc. I would probably forfit the light guards though. To much extra cost.
 

p m

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jrsimpson said:
Fixed it for you.:)

p m said:
Without the crush cans, the airbags will deploy at slower accelerations than they would normally. To the tune of ~32-35mph vs 38-40mph for a frontal impact.
If you fix it, you have to be consistent - put in your acceleration numbers instead of speeds!
 

jrsimpson

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Jan 3, 2006
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p m said:
If you fix it, you have to be consistent - put in your acceleration numbers instead of speeds!
Touche. I should have removed the reference to speed altogether.

Accurately converting your quoted speeds to accelerations (the relevant kinematic variable for airbag deployment) requires information regarding the specific circumstances of the frontal impact. Clearly the acceleration involved slowing from 35 to 0 mph differs greatly between 1) slamming into a crash sled :banghead: versus 2) easing through a pile of feathers. From where did you obtain your speeds?

Here are some numbers taken from an article [M. Ross et al., Phys. Today 59 (1), 49 (2006)] on vehicle safety. The figure shows velocity versus time for a mid-sized sedan in a frontal impact with a rigid barrier at 35 mph. The acceleration exhibits time dependence, so to simplify consider calculating an average acceleration. If the car slows from 35 mph (15.5 m/s) to a stop in roughly 100 ms, then the average acceleration is approximately 15.5 g. Note the red curve in the figure shows a peak value for an accelerometer in the dash of around 27 g. Impressive acceleration for a frontal impact at a seemingly innocuous speed of 35 mph.

Cheers, Jeff
 

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p m

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Jeff, you can dig out an old thread about the airbag compatibility of the bumpers.
100ms is a good guess, given the dimensions of the deformation zone of a typical mid-sized sedan (35mph head on into a concrete wall is rather rare).

You got me intrigued. I need to rummage through the pile of Physics Today on my desk (some of them go straight to the trash can, but not all).
 

JBailey

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Nov 20, 2004
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well I would add that I have seen an ARB or two Bend under moderate winching loads with proper winching techniques and properly sized winches. I cannot see spending the money on an inferior product.
The reason a person might see so many on vehicles around the world is due to production numbers. ARB stamps them out by the thousands. RTE custom builds each bumper per order. That is how RTE produces a superior product. Ask ARB to mount an 8274 to a D2 and see what they say. RTE could make it happen.

As stated many times over, if looks are the most important to you then function is irrelivant. If looks, function and durability are all considered then ARB falls further down the list.

I have always prefered the higher approach angle and bombproof design of the RTE. I have seen many other bumpers bend/broken but never an RTE.

I will add the $G is only marginally stronger than ARB although it has good approach angles. Seen many, many $G bent into smiley faces as well as rotated into the body. #G have never addessed ANY of there weakness and still produces the same marginal product as they did 10 years ago.

My opinion and I own it:D I doen't care for the TJM'S either.
 

Roving Beetle

Well-known member
I have been looking into making my own bumper and was worried about the airbag issues... not quite sure what to do/get now to be honest.

That said, i do need to comment on a little physics here: People keep mentioning "the combined speed" issue, that is not really correct at all:

(Feel free to correct me here or flame away if my explanation is crappy! I suck at proof-reading!! LOL!)

In very general terms and simple explanations - two items (vehicles in this case) of equal mass hitting each other at say 30MPH "cancel" each other out and each one feels as if it hit a brick wall at 30MPH. If one is traveling faster or is heavier than the other the lesser one will feel more impact. In other words if one is traveling 50mph and hits the other that was only going 30mph, the one only going 30 feels an impact of 50mph. Again, in general terms, there are a lot of factors involved here... but there is not a "combined force at work when they each hit, the speed is not "doubled" in any way.
 
A

ajh

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Not quite right, you need to factor in using force not speed. Speed is not relevant (directly).
 

Roving Beetle

Well-known member
ajh said:
Not quite right, you need to factor in using force not speed. Speed is not relevant (directly).


Yes, exactly... that's why i stated it was all in very general terms. :)
The speed issue is easier to relate to and understand as people seem to always latch onto that "I was doing 45 and so were they, so it was like we hit at 90mph" which is completely incorrect.

Anyway, just sitting here recalling physics class many many moons ago..... we had a student teacher for a while, wow she was HOT! :dancer:
 

Buddy

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Nov 6, 2006
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Roving Beetle said:
The speed issue is easier to relate to and understand as people seem to always latch onto that "I was doing 45 and so were they, so it was like we hit at 90mph" which is completely incorrect.

Please explain this? How is two cars with the same mass traveling towards each other at 45mph each different then 1 car traveling towards a another stationary car at 90mph? Force = Mass X Velocity so 1 x 90 = 90 and 2 x 45 = 90 you have the exact same force acting onto the same cars in either case. Granted most collisions are not with equal cars. But the combined speed does have an effect on the force involved in the collision. Now if you have a Disco Traveling at 45mph and a Sammy at 45mph it would not be the same as the disco traveling at 90mph I'll give you that. But if you have to similar cars there would not be much difference.
 

p m

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When two cars of the same mass and design collide head-on with the same absolute speeds, for each of them it is equivalent of hitting a concrete wall (immovable obstacle) at its speed (45 mph in the example above).

When a car travelling at 90mph hits head-on another identical car that was stopped, (assuming no brakes applied on the other car), after the collision both will be moving in the direction of motion of the 1st vehicle, at half the speed (momentum conservation).

So, for many practical purposes, including airbag deployment etc., these two cases are nearly identical.

Beetle, you need to refresh your physics.

ajh said:
Not quite right, you need to factor in using force not speed. Speed is not relevant (directly).
That's a good meaningless statement.
Of course speed is directly relevant.
 

jhmover

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Apr 23, 2004
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California
I'm no engineer or scientist and I may be showing my ignorance but this has smoke coming out of my ears. Am I off base? Or can I state that you can say all you want about the crush cans controlling when the air bags deploy but it's rather silly to even worry about because no matter what the crush cans do about timing, and no matter how many G's (or at what deacceleration) the air bags are supposed to pop, none of this takes into account what you're hitting and how fast and how much it crushes and nothing is going to be the same. If you set it up to work properly when you hit something solid like a brick wall the cans will crush faster than if you hit something less solid like another car, that's going to crush when you hit it, making your crush cans take longer to crush. I don't think there's any way you could ever factor all the variables in so it's really kind of a moot point whether you have crush cans or not, isn't it? Also I'd think that you'd want to factor in the frame and how fast or not it would crush in a collision, I'm sure not all frames are created equal, some may crush faster or slower than others, adding to the confusion.

This is why I watch these crash test where they run them into a solid peice of cement and declare the car safe or not. In my pea-brain it only means the car is safe if you run into the specific object at the specific speed and the specific angle they did in the test and that in the real world there are going to be tons of variables that mean in some situations your car may be worse or better, which again renders all this to be a bunch of BS testing in my mind. But that's the way I think.

Frankly I feel much better with the almost indisctructible RTE bumper and no crush cans than I would with the 10 pound front Disco bumper that will practially fold up if it it's a piece of paper at speed.

Anyway let the flaming begin because I'm sure someone will have a major disagreement with my thinking. Hehe.
 

Roving Beetle

Well-known member
Heh heh, "PM" that is really exactly what i was thinking, just didn't get it out quite right with the later part involving the 50 vs 30 deal..... anyway, yes - I need a refresher course but in general I still had it close! If only I could have a refresher with that student teacher - but she's probably a nasty old worn out homeless stripper by now?:ack:

Maybe I should have paid more attention to class and less to her?
 

msggunny

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Aug 3, 2007
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Holly Ridge, NC
Brain hurts.

Too much geek talk.

SO RTE will make their bumpers conform to what ever winch i want to mount?

One of you had a RTE (i think) with a 9.5ti Warn on it. Was the grill cut to accomodate it?

Looks aside, the ARB appears to me more for the "meek and mild" and the RTE more for those who want to be prety sure that if they miss a line and whack a tree that they will still have a solid bumper up front.

Makes sense.

To each their own.
 

jhmover

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Apr 23, 2004
5,571
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California
RTE's have the winch up high and close. I had to trim my grill for the winch to fit (just a mile marker 8k). Grill isn't particularly hard to trim, just that you need some patience to make it look nice (i.e. no butchery).

If you don't want to trim, I'd imagine RTE could make the bumper a little deeper so the winch is out farther so you don't have to trim. (But I'm not RTE so I don't know). They're nice people I'm sure if you call or e-mail they'll let you know.
 

GreyGoose_01 Disco

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Apr 3, 2007
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