Tiger vs. Barack

[knewsom]

Jen, I'm all for stopping abuse - and while it's true that many hospitals are understaffed, I don't need to tell you (since you've seen it firsthand) it's FAR more true for Emergency Rooms, which is where most of those 30 million people go when things finally come to that point after much neglect, or for something simple and stupid because they can't go see a normal doctor. A 20 minute checkup once or twice a year and a little preventative medicine can prevent numerous emergency room visits and operations later on. The fucked up part is, we're ALREADY paying for the ER visits of the uninsured, and getting charged up the ASS for it. There will be far fewer of those when more people are covered, and according to the CBO, the healthcare reform bill with SAVE us money in the long term. The current path we are on is NOT a sustainable one. Republican spin doctors like Mark like to scream about budget nightmares, but the truth is that there's already a budget nightmare when it comes to healthcare, and it keeps getting nastier and nastier the longer we put it off.

Mark, our education system is not really very progressive - in many ways, it's backwards and dominated by overpaid administrators and reward based testing, which results in poor education getting WORSE. If you want to look at good education, PROGRESSIVE education, look to Europe, especially Sweden.

Re: popularity ratings. I'm glad you posted that graph Mark, because it looks like an awful lot of backslashes. \\\\\\\ term after term after term. Bush's had a big spike right at the beginning because the US was ATTACKED and the whole nation pulled together in the face of adversity. Check a couple years later on when people found out what he DID with all that broad-based popular support. TALK about a nosedive...

Mark, you're a copy-paste neo-con tool. Stop parroting the bullshit and making up numbers, then maybe we can have a real conversation. ...because I'm REALLLY tired of this stupid shit.

 

[lcater]

If we all just admit that we (collectively and with FULL knowledge beforehand) elected a non-US born, terrorist extemist, satanistic, stalinistic, fascist, demonic, socialistic, baby-killing, country hating, anti-gun, anti religion, islamic, jew hating, jew conspiring, illinois corrupted, tied to criminal activity, death panel dealing, health care rationing, never led a business, coke sniffing, ho smackin, reverend wright loving, louie farrackon followin, ack-ma-dena-jad bowing, spineless, clueless, and all around not a nice guy black bastard as President of the United States of America would that help end these threads?:banghead:

Wasn't The Omen a great read?

 

[MarkP]

Ah yes, the typical 'neo-con' rebuttal, usually employed to redirect the conversation.

For the uneducated - Neo-conservative = hawkish Democrat

Yes the entitlement programs are on a unsustainable path and have been since inception, but ignoring the problem and proposing a proven failed strategy is not the answer.

As Albert Einstein said - Insanity is defined as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

[knewsom]

Ah yes, the typical 'neo-con' rebuttal, usually employed to redirect the conversation.

For the uneducated - Neo-conservative = hawkish Democrat

Yes the entitlement programs are on a unsustainable path and have been since inception, but ignoring the problem and proposing a proven failed strategy is not the answer.

As Albert Einstein said - Insanity is defined as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

"proven failed strategy"...? Are you referring to the idea of government spending any money on anything? Because that's not a STRATEGY. It's a CONCEPT.

Government involvement in healthcare is FAR from a "failed strategy". It works quite well in most civilized countries in this world.

And neocon=hawkish democrat my ass. What a crock of shit. You're a spindoctor. Admit it.

 

[Lake_Bueller]

I don't need to tell you (since you've seen it firsthand) it's FAR more true for Emergency Rooms, which is where most of those 30 million people go when things finally come to that point after much neglect, or for something simple and stupid because they can't go see a normal doctor.

And how many of those "uninsured" are not even citizens or tax payers in our country. I've been to the ER once in the past 20 years. It was a few years ago when my wife slipped and fell off the back of our boat. She was pissing blood on a Sunday night and decided to go to the ER. 9 out of 10 people in there had screaming babies and could speak English. Fix the borders first. Then worry about solving the health care system (if it still needs fixing)

There will be far fewer of those when more people are covered, and according to the CBO, the healthcare reform bill with SAVE us money in the long term.

But they aren't comparing apples to apples. Most of the "savings" comes from cutting the pay to the doctors, nurses and techs.

 

[MarkP]

"proven failed strategy"...? Are you referring to the idea of government spending any money on anything? Because that's not a STRATEGY. It's a CONCEPT.

Government involvement in healthcare is FAR from a "failed strategy". It works quite well in most civilized countries in this world.

And neocon=hawkish democrat my ass. What a crock of shit. You're a spindoctor. Admit it.

"Proven failed strategy" is the concept of proposing to deliver an entitlement program modeled after the universal healthcare strategies of countries that are now finding that they cannot afford government run healthcare. Why? Because anything advertised as 'Free' experiences a very large spike in unaccounted for demand that craters any cost assumptions. Government should enable an environment that nurtures a program but not run it. Obamacare's final destination IS government run healthcare.

Government run healthcare does exist in socialized countries but it does deliver lower medical care. It is why Canadians come to the US for superior medical care. Don't advertise Health Care as Medical Care, they are not the same. Obamacare enriches the big-Insurance and big-Pharma companies at the expense of medical care. It is why this administration is accused of crony-capitalism and labeled a corporatist administration, providing only lip-service to reform. Think bank reform.

In terms of; "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Obamacare, which no one really knows what that is, is another very costly substandard unfunded entitlement program on top of the already unfunded entitlement programs meets the definition of insanity.

EVERYONE knows neo-cons are former Democrats.

From the more liberal Wikipedia entry:

Michael Lind, a self-described former neoconservative, explained:

Neoconservatism... originated in the 1970s as a movement of anti-Soviet liberals and social democrats in the tradition of Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Humphrey and Henry ('Scoop') Jackson, many of whom preferred to call themselves 'paleoliberals.' [After the end of the Cold War]... many 'paleoliberals' drifted back to the Democratic center... Today's neocons are a shrunken remnant of the original broad neocon coalition. Nevertheless, the origins of their ideology on the left are still apparent. The fact that most of the younger neocons were never on the left is irrelevant; they are the intellectual (and, in the case of William Kristol and John Podhoretz, the literal) heirs of older ex-leftists.​

You were originally against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, correct? Ever ask yourself why the rhetoric was consistent from Clinton to Bush prior to OIF? True intellectual and political opposites would have clashed more in the lead up to OIF. The only real clashes came after the Democrat party perceived the opportunity to take political advantage of a difficult war.

 

[discopedro]

Damn Knewsome, your posts seem to come straight from obama's speeches. You've got some nerve to call Mark out for cutting and pasting, but he atleast credits his sources for his points of view.
Also, I don't understand how if we insure 30million more people how it will not overburden the system, if it already takes days to make an appointment won't it take a lot longer with all the new people?
Will people become discouraged and just say fuck it and not go because it takes too long?Will that in turn cause the er's to become even busier because people won't be able to see a doctor outside of an er setting????
Oh well, time to stock up on vitamin C.

 

[MarkP]

..... according to the CBO, the healthcare reform bill with SAVE us money in the long term. .........

Even the NYT doesn't believe that anymore. They called it a fiscal time bomb because all the latest compromises have something for everybody and as they called it, an ego trip for Obama and Pelosi.

Latest cost estimates are another $3T to $6T in deficits, on top of the exploding deficit run rate of $2T/yr.

 

[roverMc]

Jen, it's FAR more true for Emergency Rooms, which is where most of those 30 million people go when things finally come to that point after much neglect, or for something simple and stupid because they can't go see a normal doctor. A 20 minute checkup once or twice a year and a little preventative medicine can prevent numerous emergency room visits and operations later on. The fucked up part is, we're ALREADY paying for the ER visits of the uninsured, and getting charged up the ASS for it. .

I....must....agree with knewsom on this and I know first hand after working in an ER, we would get patients with a cough and a sore throat. The used the system because the either had the Gold Card (medicaid) or would'nt pay a regular GP or ENT's office visit. We spend soooo much money on this it is sickening. I have to pay my med bills why shouldn't they???? Do some research and find a hopital that shows a profit. Let me know when you find one.

 

[MarkP]

Last time I was in a hospital ER it was pretty quiet. Then again we have

Urgent Care facilities scattered around the area. The offer 1/3 cost and wait time of the ER, Board Certified Physicians, RNs, On-site X-Rays, etc.

The primary problem for our hospitals is reimbursement from ...... the government.

 

[Ballah06]

Not sure if its been mentioned on here already, but what about the so called "education crisis"? Having just spent something around $34 million out of $71 budgeted for education from the stimulus, the students and others are complaining and schools are possibly raising tuition rates. Apparently 33 states today had demonstrations coordianted by various student bodies, etc. one of them in NYU. The way i see it if you cannot afford a $50k a year education and cannot find a way to go to NYU, dont bitch and complain, get education somewhere else. Some kids have to work 2-3 jobs, etc. so what? Join the working force early. :banghead:

 

[brianhoberg]

You know what I haven't heard much about is how the heck can an already overburdened and short staffed medical field going to be able to provide quality service for this so-called extra 30million people that are claimed to not have insurance?

Jenn, I read that to my wife and she whole-heartedly agrees. She's been a cardiac registered nurse for 3 years before becoming a hospital educator, then a nursing professor at a nursing school, and finally went back to school and is graduating as a Nurse Practitioner this May.

She indicated that one of the problems with a lot of students in medical school is that not only are they paying huge amounts of money for a medical education which deters most of the potential applicants, but medical students are being pushed to specialize in niche areas such as cardiology and neurosurgery. While specialization is great, the regular general medical doctors running practices are dwindling each year as medical doctors retire. Unfortunately, medical practices have had to stop opening their doors to new patients becuase the doctors are put in the dilemna of not being able to provide medical care properly, and thus this floods the ER's with cuts and bruises.

If the government was smart, they would see that one of the biggest areas needing staffing is not the cybersecurity and tech sectors, but the medical sectors. If they offered more incentive for students to pursue medical and nursing training such as grants for nursing training or reducing costs of medical schools, we could address the 30M uninsured that would be getting better medical care.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about the freaking conceirge service. I remember when my son was being born, there was a family that was there and they were throwing fits because ice wasn't being brought to the room for THEM, not the patient, but for them. They wanted blankets (it was November) and wanted complimentary meal tickets as well. IT was a family of 6 not including the in-laws. As for me and my family, we were offered the medical vouchers, but we picked up lunch and brought it to the room, including for my wife. Society has become too comfortable with convenience and having things now and are soon to forget how to be self-sufficient and do shit for themselves.

You have great points and unfortunately I totally see why you'd change careers being in those circumstances. Save your back, get the ergonomic chair at work in administration

 

[sideview]

look to Europe, especially Sweden.

Why is it that liberals always say look to Europe now days...for health care, education, legislation, PC, etc.? Is that the goal, to become like Europe? Maybe the patriots were wrong to leave GB behind, should have spared their lives and just let them manage us all along.

 

[brian4d]

Why is it that liberals always say look to Europe now days...for health care, education, legislation, PC, etc.? Is that the goal, to become like Europe? Maybe the patriots were wrong to leave GB behind, should have spared their lives and just let them manage us all along.

So all that hiding in the woods behind trees and shooting Redcoats in the back is for naught.

 

[roverMc]

Last time I was in a hospital ER it was pretty quiet. Then again we have

Urgent Care facilities scattered around the area. The offer 1/3 cost and wait time of the ER, Board Certified Physicians, RNs, On-site X-Rays, etc.

The primary problem for our hospitals is reimbursement from ...... the government.

Those urgent care places are some of the best things that has come around.

 

[Jake]

Not sure if its been mentioned on here already, but what about the so called "education crisis"? Having just spent something around $34 million out of $71 budgeted for education from the stimulus, the students and others are complaining and schools are possibly raising tuition rates. Apparently 33 states today had demonstrations coordianted by various student bodies, etc. one of them in NYU. The way i see it if you cannot afford a $50k a year education and cannot find a way to go to NYU, dont bitch and complain, get education somewhere else. Some kids have to work 2-3 jobs, etc. so what? Join the working force early. :banghead:

National Guard in just about every state offers tuition waver/payment plans for state schools. All the services offer college savings incentives and $$. Money is out there, just depends on the willingness to serve...atriot:

 

[Ballah06]

National Guard in just about every state offers tuition waver/payment plans for state schools. All the services offer college savings incentives and $$. Money is out there, just depends on the willingness to serve...atriot:

I m with you on that, seems like the kids nowadays bitch and complain and expect to be handed a good education and everyting else on a silver platter without having to do anything for it. They view it as a right instead of something that they have to earn. I sure like my GI Bill. atriot:

 

[Jake]

I m with you on that, seems like the kids nowadays bitch and complain and expect to be handed a good education and everyting else on a silver platter without having to do anything for it. They view it as a right instead of something that they have to earn. I sure like my GI Bill. atriot:

if they are too lazy to do something for an education like work or serve, and can't afford or get student loans, then screw 'em. Plenty of opportunities at McDonalds and such....

 

[knewsom]

I worked all through college, even starting a successful production company that ended up making political commercials and films before I was done with school. I still had to have student loans, unfortunately, and I'm still paying them off, but they're not atrocious. Low interest, and I pay more than the minimum on them. It'd have been great if my parents had been able to pay my tuition, but essentially putting myself though school, like buying my own cars, and being on my own since 18, have taught me some valuable lessons. It wasn't always easy, but sometimes it's important to do things because they are hard. I didn't get that at the time, and I'm sure my son won't get it when it comes time for HIM to do the hard things, but c'est la vie.

RE: Sweden, etc. The Revolutionary War has zero to do with my point. When another country gets something right, it's not unpatriotic to look at their example and try to learn from it. Personally, I think it would be doing a disservice to our country NOT to do so. Our country is awesome, and I love it deeply, but that doesn't mean we are the best at everything. I'm not going to let my national pride stand in the way of stealing good ideas from other countries. Historically, neither have our forefathers. Democracy? Not exactly our invention. Our Justice system? Pretty close to the British system. Hell, the foundation of our advanced technology comes from captured Nazi scientists! The point is, there's no shame in knowing what others are doing and learning from it. It doesn't mean there's no need to innovate... It means both innovating AND improving on what others have done. Different ways of doing things are just different tools for the job. Some work better than others. Our tool doesn't work so well, maybe this is a clue that we should look at what other nations are using. Again, no shame in it - we have PLENTY to be proud of. When we (or I, at least) point to other nations' examples, it's not out of disdain for our own - it's to show what is possible with a little political will.

Urgent care clinics are great - and more of them would be even better. We're still faced with the problem of people who can't even afford THAT though. They just end up in the ER, and we end up paying twice what we would have paid to insure them. We pay more than any other country for healthcare, and we don't get nearly as much for it. Call me crazy, but MAYBE too much of that is going to the pockets of big insurance company execs. We've made it profitable to charge people NOT give them the care they need. This is back-asswards however you look at it, and NEEDS to be fixed. ...and "fixing the borders first" isn't going to solve all our problems. People will come in uninvited whatever we do. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to stop it - we should, and we are. ...but fixing healthcare is something that needs to be done regardless of our borders, and the sooner we do it, the better.

Mark P - Yeah, I'm sure that Bush, Cheney, Condi, Rove and company are alllll former Democrats, huh? And way to answer every question with another question. That's what I'm going to do to you from now on, so here we go: What's the airspeed velocity of a swallow carrying a coconut?

 

[mbrummal]

What's the airspeed velocity of a swallow carrying a coconut?

african or european?