Toyota conquers Antarctica

knewsom

knewsom

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Would someone mind telling me what the difference between a Tacoma and a Hilux is, exactly, other than the turbodiesel engine?
 
garrett

garrett

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knewsom said:
Wow... Glad I own a disco.
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Why? The Taco and Hilux are far, far better engineered vehicles hands down. There is a reason the Hilux and other models are used by everyone in every corner of the world. Sure you see LRs in the former British colonies, but the Yotas rule just about everywhere now. There is a reason for that.
 
knewsom

knewsom

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garrett said:
Why? The Taco and Hilux are far, far better engineered vehicles hands down. There is a reason the Hilux and other models are used by everyone in every corner of the world. Sure you see LRs in the former British colonies, but the Yotas rule just about everywhere now. There is a reason for that.
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Sure - Hiluxes. Not Tacos. As for me, I'd rather replace and UPGRADE the less-than-satisfactory elements of a Rover and keep the nice things like great articulation, coils, and a rugged box-frame. Also, not having to spend ten times as much on a Yota that is STILL going to break and need maintenance, is pretty nice.

I know plenty of people with "indestructible" Yotas that have needed $2k and up worth of work for things that on a Disco are simple to fix. Yeah, our trucks may break a bit more often, but at least they're easy to fix, and at their core are extremely durable.
 
mgreenspan

mgreenspan

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Feb 28, 2005
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You always know people to justify your horribly incorrect opinions.

The comparison of a running a used car versus buying a new one is not a valid argument for comparison of durability and reliability in terms of dollars. Running a used vehicle will generally be cheaper b/c you're not paying for depreciation. If you asked me to buy and run a 1995 Hilux or a 1995 Disco 300tdi and run it for 10 years as a farm work/daily driver then the Hilux will end up cheaper in the end. If you asked me to buy a 1995 Disco 300tdi or a brand new Hilux and run it for 10 years, the Disco would likely end up cheaper in the end depending on its condition prior to purchase(rust bucket or not) even if it required a new trans and a 2.8 TGV engine swap. Move that timeline further out though and I'd reckon the new Hilux would eventually pass the Disco in cheaper running cost.

I said this in the other thread, drive a LR because you want to. It still holds true with regards to the Hilux being better. Drive a LR because you want to. I grew up envious of the LR 109 SW. There was an Aussie in the neighborhood who had one and I loved it. I tried to trick my dad into buying a Discovery in 94 when they came out. My first car I bought was a 98 Discovery. I loved it to its death. I've now got a 110 that I've built exactly how I want it and will love it to its second or third death. If Hilux was sold in the US I'd buy one in a heartbeat. I don't like the Tacoma as much but then again I don't like hardly any vehicle designed for the US market due to the end user demands. A Hilux is more durable and reliable than a LR. Fact.


Hilux=win=garrett boner=?
 
garrett

garrett

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knewsom said:
Sure - Hiluxes. Not Tacos. As for me, I'd rather replace and UPGRADE the less-than-satisfactory elements of a Rover and keep the nice things like great articulation, coils, and a rugged box-frame. Also, not having to spend ten times as much on a Yota that is STILL going to break and need maintenance, is pretty nice.

I know plenty of people with "indestructible" Yotas that have needed $2k and up worth of work for things that on a Disco are simple to fix. Yeah, our trucks may break a bit more often, but at least they're easy to fix, and at their core are extremely durable.
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Based on the pure "fun factor" I'd buy an older Rover (pre 2000) over a Toyota any day. That's easy. They are cooler and better looking in my opinion. We don't think of Toyota's of the same vintage as ours (pre 2K here again) as having personalities, but if you ask an avid Yota guy he'll tell you something different.

Now you are a bit naive when it comes to the "nice things". Hiluxes and Toyota's in general are far better engineered and in most cases have far more stout components for that matter. Axles, steering components, etc. At their "core" LRs are extremely durable? You mean that lovely 4.0 motor? Explain to me what's weak about the "core" of a Hilux? Sure there are lots of great things about the Land Rovers - I've owned them for 14 years and have had 6 or so of them. I love them too, but you can't compare apples to oranges here. The suspension, frame, t-case and trans are solid no doubt. The motor is a crap shoot and the drive train is fragile. Durable isn't a word I'd use. Maybe for your weekend drives to the beach and occasional off road weekend, but not for consistent and aggressive use.

Take the Taco I've been driving for 2 years now. It's a relatively modern vehicle. Do you think a LR of similar vintage would be as dead reliable as the Yota doing what I do with it? I drive it 100 miles a day to and from our training course, 5 days a week when we are training. It gets driven by military people that don't know how to drive a manual all day long, all the while getting bashed on rocks and smacked around in general. It's had 60K put on it in this time frame - and not recreational wheeling miles where it gets driven to Rausch Creek and "wheeled" for a few hours and done again in a few months at most. You think your Rover or any other Rover would do this trouble free? Since new it's needed both front wheel bearings and that's it (has 90K on it). Sure we have Toyota's in the fleet of 20 trucks that are shit. We have an FJ80 in VA that has "issues" that will likely never get solved. But all in all they are simply a better built vehicle.

As I've said before - capability is nothing without reliability and it's just one reason why Land Rover's are no longer used by certain groups around the world. I talk to the people we work with at length about their likes, dislikes, etc regarding vehicles. The young guys don't know any better, but the more senior guys know what works and gets the job done and very few are using LRs.

Toyota's retain their value (cost more) for a reason. LRs not so much and there's a reason for that too.

With that said take a stock LR, Yota, Jeep, etc and add some big tires, lift, etc and you've made it a less reliable vehicle. But more so with a LR

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/10/14/why-rebel-groups-love-the-toyota-hilux.html


.
 
gage092879

gage092879

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took a 78 series and hilux over a 110 in afghan and never looked back. but that 110 sure was nice looking.
 
emmodg

emmodg

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I'm going to have to agree with Garrett - Every 5 day training program we conduct is nothing less than an all-out assault on our vehicles. An assault conducted by 20-year old SEALs who think they and everything around them are and should be indestructable. We have drivers that can't drive stick, couldn't tell you what left foot braking is, wouldn't know the difference between IFS and solid axle if it raped their sister and left a couple bucks on the dresser! THey beat the hell out of our trucks! Run them till the temp. gets pegged, a drag link looks like the letter "U" and the diff. sounds like a trashcan full of hammers is rolling down the street! I will say, that after all this and more, the Rovers are done - they're in the woods abandoned with their hoods up, an axle broken, a brake caliper spewing fluid, a CD lever stuck in nuetral, an exhaust hanging from the rear bumper, and a key stuck in the ignition cause it won't come out. The Toyotas, (except for the '91 80 which was a bad idea from the start concerning motor choice) are still plugging along. They may make a weird noise or two and they may look like shit but they're running. Having said that - I love my Disco, it's got "soul", not everyone and his brother has one and it's stock suspension is better than many mildly built 'Yota suspensions. But you have to give the Devil his due - the Toyota is just more reliable, period. The Hilux is the choice of warlords world-wide.
 
knewsom

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Whoah, hang on a minute - I never said a Disco was more reliable than a Hilux. ...or even a Tacoma.

I did say that a Disco's frame is more durable than a Tacoma - it is. As Garrett said, the frame, t-case and transmission on a Disco are extremely tough, and that's what I meant regarding "the core".

I agree that the Rover V8 is not the more reliable engine. ...but when properly taken care of, it can last a long time and be dependable. Sure, the head-gaskets crap out after 100-150k miles, but they aren't so hard to replace... and the rest of the engine ain't so bad. There are other things that suck too. Brake calipers, for one (which is why I replaced mine with Defender calipers and haven't had any trouble since). Engine mounts - again I replaced the stock ones with aftermarket ones that even if the rubber fails my engine won't move. Fuel pump - which I replaced with the Malibu pump that ain't gonna die.

Things that concern me about the Taco (that I just didn't know about before reading that article) - weak a-arms, rack and pinion steering, and a partially-boxed frame. Now, the frame you can't do anything about. Not really. It's just not as strong as a Rover frame, and if you overload the vehicle it's not going to end well. Take too hard of a hit offroad, and the same applies. The Disco's steering isn't the most durable out there, not by a long shot - but at least it's relatively easy to replace, and possible to replace with a heim-jointed, relocated and more durable linkage and dampener - and that upgrade would likely cost less than replacing the Yota rack and pinion when it wears out. Sure, these aftermarket parts aren't available in say, Uganda... but they are available in San Diego, which is where I am so I don't give a crap about the African Warlords aftermarket needs.

I agree that a Yota may be more dependable (Hilux or Tacoma) than a Disco. ...but Discos are tough, easy to fix, and simple to upgrade and improve reliability. That's all I meant when I said I was glad I have a Disco. I bought it because I like it, but I think there are other reasons to own one than simple affection (which is of course, reason enough).
 
garrett

garrett

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knewsom said:
Whoah, hang on a minute - I never said a Disco was more reliable than a Hilux. ...or even a Tacoma.

I did say that a Disco's frame is more durable than a Tacoma - it is. As Garrett said, the frame, t-case and transmission on a Disco are extremely tough, and that's what I meant regarding "the core".

I agree that the Rover V8 is not the more reliable engine. ...but when properly taken care of, it can last a long time and be dependable. Sure, the head-gaskets crap out after 100-150k miles, but they aren't so hard to replace... and the rest of the engine ain't so bad. There are other things that suck too. Brake calipers, for one (which is why I replaced mine with Defender calipers and haven't had any trouble since). Engine mounts - again I replaced the stock ones with aftermarket ones that even if the rubber fails my engine won't move. Fuel pump - which I replaced with the Malibu pump that ain't gonna die.

Things that concern me about the Taco (that I just didn't know about before reading that article) - weak a-arms, rack and pinion steering, and a partially-boxed frame. Now, the frame you can't do anything about. Not really. It's just not as strong as a Rover frame, and if you overload the vehicle it's not going to end well. Take too hard of a hit offroad, and the same applies. The Disco's steering isn't the most durable out there, not by a long shot - but at least it's relatively easy to replace, and possible to replace with a heim-jointed, relocated and more durable linkage and dampener - and that upgrade would likely cost less than replacing the Yota rack and pinion when it wears out. Sure, these aftermarket parts aren't available in say, Uganda... but they are available in San Diego, which is where I am so I don't give a crap about the African Warlords aftermarket needs.

I agree that a Yota may be more dependable (Hilux or Tacoma) than a Disco. ...but Discos are tough, easy to fix, and simple to upgrade and improve reliability. That's all I meant when I said I was glad I have a Disco. I bought it because I like it, but I think there are other reasons to own one than simple affection (which is of course, reason enough).
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The head gaskets aren't hard to fix? Ok. Then neither is all the weak as shit steering components, drive train components and everything else on them that fails prematurely. That's a weak argument. Lets just replace everything that sucks and now we have a good truck I guess. Are slipped liners easy to fix too? That's two major issues on a motor that are VERY common and all within a relatively low mileage. No doubt the DI is a good platform - it's all the crap that's attached to it that's the issue.

You can upgrade a Rover all day long, but that won't fix the reliability issues they are plagued with. Everything lasts longer that is taken care of, but the beauty of a true robust platform is one that operates in conditions where they haven't been pampered. That's where you separate the vehicle you can really rely on.

Toyota's are tough, easy to fix and simple to upgrade too. Even more so than any Rover I've owned - especially when you don't have to fix the Yota very often. I just change the oils in the Taco, train with it hard for a week and drive it back from CT, VA, VT or wherever without as much as a tire out of balance. I think that fits the mold of those things you mentioned.

Now lets change the discussion to modern Rovers. Yikes. Tough, easy to fix and simple to upgrade?
 
emmodg

emmodg

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I'm not a big fan of the steering componentry of the Taco that's for sure! We have a fake Hilux - Taco with a diesel - who's A-arms look kinda like a 5 year-old girl's forearms. Still love my Disco though....
 
Some Dude

Some Dude

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We've got a 2000 Tacoma, bought brand new. It is boring as shit, but never needs anything. I think it got a starter about 5 years ago. Nothing else has ever broken, ever.

I've sunk more money into my Rover in the last 3 months than the Tacoma has seen in 12 years.
 
knewsom

knewsom

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garrett said:
The head gaskets aren't hard to fix? Ok. Then neither is all the weak as shit steering components, drive train components and everything else on them that fails prematurely. That's a weak argument. Lets just replace everything that sucks and now we have a good truck I guess. Are slipped liners easy to fix too? That's two major issues on a motor that are VERY common and all within a relatively low mileage. No doubt the DI is a good platform - it's all the crap that's attached to it that's the issue.

You can upgrade a Rover all day long, but that won't fix the reliability issues they are plagued with. Everything lasts longer that is taken care of, but the beauty of a true robust platform is one that operates in conditions where they haven't been pampered. That's where you separate the vehicle you can really rely on.
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Regarding slipped liners, of course there's no fixing that. ...but they're not so common on a D1, as opposed to say, a D2.

garrett said:
Toyota's are tough, easy to fix and simple to upgrade too. Even more so than any Rover I've owned - especially when you don't have to fix the Yota very often. I just change the oils in the Taco, train with it hard for a week and drive it back from CT, VA, VT or wherever without as much as a tire out of balance. I think that fits the mold of those things you mentioned.
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My D1 took 300 miles of prerunning the Baja 1000, more than half of that with a complete novice to offroad driving at the wheel. Then I drove it from San Felipe to San Diego, took a shower, changed my clothes, and drove to LA for several days of work, then drove home to SD. Not long after that, and without so much as an oil change (let alone a proper bath), the D1 was back in Baja for the race as a support vehicle, often lugging around dozens of fuel cans, dodging insane Mexican drivers, and hauling ass offroad to seemingly random locations for pitstops. I even managed to have a bit of fun when word came down that Steve was sadly not going to make it back to the West Coast, wheelin' along the beaches and cliffs of Baja while heading home to SD, and a day or two later, back to LA again for work. Nothing failed. My springs are on the soft side now... but they have a LOT of miles on them (and I don't mind the softness so much... its' comfy now). I wouldn't say it was "pampered" on that trip... and I don't give a crap what anyone says - that Disco is a champ, even if it's not as reliable or robust as a Yota. It's reliable and robust enough for me, and I can tow shit with it and load it up with a ton of gear without worrying about warping my damned frame.

garrett said:
Now lets change the discussion to modern Rovers. Yikes. Tough, easy to fix and simple to upgrade?
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Yeah, the new Discos are nothing like the old ones. ...but the new Defenders are pretty sweet - especially now that LR has finally got their engines right. There's about as much point talking about that as there is in talking about a Hilux though (and no, not as reliable either). Can't buy one here, can ya?
 
Tugela

Tugela

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May 21, 2007
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knewsom said:
Not long after that, and without so much as an oil change (let alone a proper bath), the D1 was back in Baja for the race as a support vehicle, often lugging around dozens of fuel cans, dodging insane Mexican drivers, and hauling ass offroad to seemingly random locations for pitstops.
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To provide a bit more detail and context here, at one point I put 55 gallons of fuel on the roof, another 10 in the cargo area, and filled the onboard tank. That's about what, 85-89 gallons? And then driving through the military checkpoint where the federales were heavily armed I felt like the Hindenburg coming in to dock.

The Rovers handled Baja just fine on that trip, except of course for the race truck which took some good licks, but when we called it a day that Rangie still had more miles left in it.

In my 5 years in Africa I spent a good bit of time in Series, Defenders, Discos, FJ40s, FJ60s, FJ74s, and FJ80s. The Defender was the least problematic of the bunch and the FJ74 the most. I don't see that as being representative of ALL Defenders and FJ74s, but I think there was a strong correlation between their reliability and how they were treated/maintained.

I agree that a well-sorted Rover will do just fine under sustained harsh conditions, but not everyone has the time, resources, and aptitude to invest in the work that will keep a Rover in top shape. I know I don't. I think the Toyotas tend to have a higher tolerance for abuse and neglect.
 
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