Ummmmm... Bio-Diesel

garrett

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2004
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Middleburg, VA
www.blackdogmobility.com
exactly. cover crops.

as we all know large farms are paid to NOT grow lots of different crops now and are heavily subsidized accordingly. we have excess in many areas of the ag industry.

we have a 500 gallon bio diesel tank here at the farm we use for the Dodge 3500 dually Cummins farm truck. i have yet to check to see what kind of mileage we are getting or even what we pay for the stuff.
 
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sisukid1975

Guest
MUSKYMAN said:
well thats yet to be seen...right now coops are considered as private personal production. like a guy home brewing beer...no tax till you offer it for sale.

the 60c a gallon is a estimate based on the coops goals of production and the number of members in the startup. no members of the coop can be in commercial enterprises as well is one of the coops rules.

yes this is skating the grey line right now...let them come dip my tank and sit me down in front of a jury of my peers:patriot:

This Co-op is in Barrington?

That's not far from here.... Almost worthwhile to buy it by the 55 gallon drum and drive it home.

Care to share the name of it, and phone number/website if you'd be so kind? I can hardly produce it myself for less than $.80 a gallon, not including the cost of the still.
 
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syoung

Guest
OK- call it misinformation, but I'll give you a good deal on an injection pump when yours fails. We've had several greenie types in VT and other places that have called and called over and over troubleshooting their alternate fuel diesels. Even when starting on reg diesel and finishing on reg diesel- the injection pumps don't last long at all when they run other types through it. All I have to go by is the half dozen or so people that tried it on Rovers and gave up after farking up a lot of expensive bits.
My original plan on my 109 was to run bio- but based on what I've seen, I'm holding off until it's known why it has never worked for anyone (long term) so far.
 
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another110

Guest
I don't have the numbers handy in front of me but the fact is the US can not grow enough crop to be converted into all the of current use of petro-diesel. There just aren't enough acres. This is before you look at decreasing overall farm acres in the US. I'll try to find the numbers to prove my point but it's really just simple math. Soy produces X amount of gallons per acre. The US uses Y gallons a year of diesel. In this case, to quote Jimmy Buffett, "X don't equal Y".

Kelp, algae and other "alternative alternatives" do show promise of being able to produce in the quantities needed. Eventually a leap to solar powered conversion of water to hydrogen cells is the ideal in this day and age. But that is further off than plant based biodiesel.

Mike, this might be getting a bit off topic, but the problem with the free market and farming is it tends to be short sighted. Until recently the trend has always been "do what it takes to get more yeild from the ground". I don't know how to state this without sounding like a fruitcake in this forum, but currently the free market doesn't give a rat's ass about the degradaton of the soils that isn't evident until a generation or more has passed. The irony in this case is the market will try to get more yeild out of the ground by using more petroleum based fertilizer. Yes, I hope eventually farmer after farmer starts seeing this trend away from a natural ballance in what the soil can nautrally yeild as a bad thing and attempts to restore that ballance.

It's kinda like having a community well that can easily support 100 people. But you start adding more people and expecting more from the well and you end up needing to dig deeper to increase yield. But there comes a point when you can't dig any deeper to get more yield.

I do see your point on the market ballance though. Only problem is it's still cheaper to pump oil from the ground, ship it all the way across the planet, refine it, ship it to gas stations and pump it into your car than it is to make bodiesel at home. If it weren't for the government subsidies for biodiesel, it'd be around $4.25/gallon and we wouldn't be having such a "problem" since the market would dictate people buy petro-diesel at $3/gallon.
 
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MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
8,277
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OverBarrington IL
syoung said:
OK- call it misinformation, but I'll give you a good deal on an injection pump when yours fails. We've had several greenie types in VT and other places that have called and called over and over troubleshooting their alternate fuel diesels. Even when starting on reg diesel and finishing on reg diesel- the injection pumps don't last long at all when they run other types through it. All I have to go by is the half dozen or so people that tried it on Rovers and gave up after farking up a lot of expensive bits.
My original plan on my 109 was to run bio- but based on what I've seen, I'm holding off until it's known why it has never worked for anyone (long term) so far.

Steve

starting on regular and shutting down on regular diesel are both related to SVO and WVO...like I said thats not the same as biodiesel.

the people you have talked to are running twin tank systems trying to pre heat to decrease the viscocity of most likely WVO (waste veggie oil) The french fri guys all have problems at some point and it is not a good way to go because you always fight inconsistant fuel problems.

Thom
 

rovrkil

Active member
Dec 11, 2004
28
0
Lake City, FL
Check out biodiesel.org

I just bought a diesel truck, and have been researching the bio route for the past few months. The pumps will fail, ie clog, if the filter isn't changed a bit more regular than on # 2 diesel. The biodiesel sellers in my area actually recommend to run a few tanks of mixed bio and # 2 and change the filter prior to running straight bio. Also, the fuel lines may deteriorate on an older diesel, don't remember the year that the hoses were changed over to be more bio friendly.
If you are wanting to run SVO or WVO then some additional modifications are in order. One of the guys down here in FL has run his motorhome on WVO for a few years with great results and minimal problems.

Marc Kaz
 
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another110

Guest
Steve, "never" worked long term? There's a guy here in WA with a 109 and a 200TDI i think (might be a 300) and he's been running biodiesel for over 7 years. I'm sure I can find many more. What is long term? I think you're looking only for the negative and finding it, kinda like noticing more Rovers on the street than Camaros (I apologize to anyone who will now be noticing more Camaros on the road).

And your description above is Straight Vegetable Oil and NOT biodiesel. Done wrong, SVO will give you problems like you mention and obviously mess up the injection pump and other things.

As to why, take a look at http://www.frybrid.com/images/viscosity.jpg and the page it comes from http://www.frybrid.com/svo.htm . This gives a good explaination of why SVO needs to be heated to a proper temperature before being introduced into the system. Chris, who runs Frybrid, sells systems that are expensive but work well and don't see the same problems as you mention. Incidently, he also did work building up a couple of 110s for National Geographic for a Africa trip at one point. They weren't SVO though, but still TDIs. I've emailed with him and chatted on his forum about SVO in a 300TDI and the overall answer I got back was it'll work with the normal precautions as any vehicle needs.

As to biodiesel.org, while it has some good info, it is also 100% run by the soybean lobbies. " It was founded in 1992 by state soybean commodity groups, " taken from http://www.biodiesel.org/aboutnbb/whoarewe/ . I'm not saying they are completely evil, just that they will perpetuate the use of less than ideal soybeans for biodiesel when much better crops are available (mustard, for example).

Yes, you need to change your fuel filter after the first couple of tanks with biodiesel as it works as a solvent, scraping off all the crud petro-diesel has left in your system. It's no different than if you took a diesel fuel tank and lines, changed to a gas engine and started pumping gasoline through that same system. The nice thing is you have a cleaner system afterwards. And your engine gets the lubrication it needs from something other than sulpher.

As to fuel lines, biodiesel will break down natural rubber over time. So if your car has natural rubber in the fuel lines or seals that the fuel might come in contact with, they should be changed. As started on http://www.biodiesel.org/markets/gen/ (see, it's good for some things! :) ) "Pure biodiesel is not compatible with natural rubber, sometimes found in pre-1994 vehicles. Because it is a solvent, it can degrade natural rubber hoses and gaskets. This is not a problem with B20 blends (20 percent biodiesel/80 percent diesel) and below. "

Biodiesel does have some negatives, like anything. It will gel at certain points (depending on the feedstock) below freezing. it puts out more Nitrogen oxides emissions usually increase slightly, which is a contributing factor to smog.

But there is the postive aspect of it being non-toxic. While it would't be good, if an Exxon Valdez tanker spilled as much veggie oil it would be non-toxic to the workers and the wildlife. While it tastes really bad, it's not lethal like petroleum.

Anywho, use it or don't use it as you like. Just make sure you have the right facts when making a decsision.
 
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syoung

Guest
109's didn't come with 200tdi's in 'em though... I'm talking about guys trying to run Series trucks on various types of fuels. Some are attempting to mix their own since bio isn't widely available commercially and some have tried other types of fuel such as the veggie oil etc. I'm going to hold off attempts on my 109 until I see better success with them. I think the problems lie in that the injection pump has a narrow window of compatibility as far as the viscosity of fluid it can pass effectively. Speculation on my part, but I think that might be the reason several have failed when running anything other than straight-up pump diesel.
 
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sisukid1975

Guest
syoung said:
109's didn't come with 200tdi's in 'em though... I'm talking about guys trying to run Series trucks on various types of fuels. Some are attempting to mix their own since bio isn't widely available commercially and some have tried other types of fuel such as the veggie oil etc. I'm going to hold off attempts on my 109 until I see better success with them. I think the problems lie in that the injection pump has a narrow window of compatibility as far as the viscosity of fluid it can pass effectively. Speculation on my part, but I think that might be the reason several have failed when running anything other than straight-up pump diesel.

Another possibility is rubber seals/diaphragms in the injector pump that are being dissolved by bio?

Just a thought.
 
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another110

Guest
Right, they didn't come with them but he has one with a TDI and 7 years or so under his belt. I'll see if I can find more real life stories of it working out well for people. Using biodiesel not up to spec can shorten the life of the pump, just like using petro-diesel not up to spec will too. Making your own is more risky than a lot of the stuff you buy at commercial outlets.

Here's a list of places in VT
http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/showstate.asp?st=VThttp://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/

and retail outlets country wide (sorry, don't have one for the international folks)
http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/

Glad you're keeping an open mind about it. I'll see if I can find viscosity info.


BTW, it was mentioned easrlier that there's a federal tax break for swapping in a diesel engine? Does anyone have any specific information?
 

Ruffin' It

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2004
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Los Angeles, CA
nosivad_bor said:
screw ourselves? maybe it will reversre the trend of people selling the family farm to new housing developers because its not worth shit to be a farmer anymore. we have plenty of land, and just think of all those illegal aliens we could put to work.


It isn't a matter of land, it is a matter of intensity to which we can farm that land. The governement doesn't pay farmers to fallow land because they hate to see they work, they do it because if they farm too intensly then the aquifers and the topsoil get depleted. That happens and the lands ability to be productive decreases. THAT happenes and we aren't searching for more energy, we are searching for food. Not all land (or even most) is able to withstand intensive agriculture. If we burn the stuff that is out then we are really up a creek. Just look at the aquifer depletion rates over the past 50 years under the Midwest. That is happening without using that land for fuel. Extrapolate for heavy ethanol/bio-diesel production and we are gonna be hungry.:eek:
 
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another110

Guest
Steve,
Found this handy chart over at Brevard Biodiesel (whoever they are, but they have a pretty chart) http://www.brevardbiodiesel.org/viscosity.html
It shows the viscosity by the quoted standards; D975 for #2 diesel and D6751 for biodiesel. Biodiesel is allowed to have a larger range towards higher viscosity (more gel like) so your concern is well founded. I'd be interested to see how this matched up with the stated range of viscosity for the TDIs. I also wonder if opening up the injectors a slight amount wouldn't lessen the work on the pump.

However, note that B50 (50% biodiesel) is well within the ASTM D975 range for petro-diesel. Imagine how much less oil we'd import/use if all #2 was mixed with equal parts biodiesel.
 

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Ruffin' It

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2004
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Los Angeles, CA
Mike_Rupp said:
Huh? As long as you keep government out of it, the market will always find the most effective solution to a problem. In a free market, natural resources will be put to use in their most effective manner. In Washington, many of the apple orchards are being converted to grapes. There is more money in it for the farmers. If there is more money in it for farmers to make biodiesel, then that's what they'll make.

How do you over-use something? The only way "over" comes in to play is when the government comes in and starts messing around with subsidies and price controls.

How do you over-use something? Oh Dear. Well, if you actually want to know do some research. If you want the quick and dirty (no pun intended) then here it is:
Watertables and aquifers - The are only recharged at a certain rate. The more intensely they are tapped to water crops the more quickly they are depleted. We are currently (and have been for sometime) using them more quickly then they are being replenished. If agricultural activity is drastically stepped up to meet the needs of heavy bio-diesel/ethanol useage more crops will have to be grown requiring more water. The Great Plains aquifer that used to stretch well into Texas no longer does due to over-use. It's a problem when you don't have water to grow the food you eat. You tend to get hungry.
Topsoil - Similar problem. Soil is made up of many things. One of the more important components is humus. It is the organic component that plants need as much as water. That needs to be replaced as it is used. With greater amounts of highly intensive agriculture that would come with a heavy reliance on bio-fuels that too would be jepordized.
That is how you can over-use something. Not everything is a simple economic problem. If it was the Libertarian principles would work easily and anyone should be able to purchase a wife or child on ebay. How much would you want to get paid to let a corperation inject you with a leathal disease?
 

RBBailey

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Jul 26, 2004
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I thought you were supposed to install heaters for the oil when using bio. I know of several people who have hybrids that are running normal diesel till the heat of the bio gets to the point where the injectors and filters can handle it.
 

MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
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OverBarrington IL
RBBailey said:
I thought you were supposed to install heaters for the oil when using bio. I know of several people who have hybrids that are running normal diesel till the heat of the bio gets to the point where the injectors and filters can handle it.

once again...this is for WVO and SVO not true biodiesel
 

Ruffin' It

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2004
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Los Angeles, CA
MUSKYMAN said:
more misinformation:banghead:

I grew up in wisconsin farmland, as a kid you would see a field with soy beans growing in it. the farmer would say I'm renewing the field after corn stripped it.

when you grow soy beans most the plant goes back into the ground. same thing for sunflower(another great source for bio).

there is also huge research going on to use kelp and other sea weed to produce bio-oils that can be burnt as bio-diesel.

as long as the oil companies supply both most the fuel and most the information we will pay high prices and have few alternatives. But dont despair because companies like ADM are breaking into the market and a freemarket will win out over misinformation.:applause:

Oh Christ.
:banghead:

Re: "More misinformation"

No. I'm right. I'm actually 100% right. In the process of getting an Environmental Science degree with a emphasis on Alternative Energy I did pick up one or two things.

Re: "I grew up in Wisconsin"

Good. I grew up in Michigan. We have farms too. Lots of 'em.

Re: "renewing comment"

All plants take out some things and replenish others. By "renewing the field" that farmer wasn't saying that the Soybeans make it all better, he was saying that the Soybeans help with things like Nitrogen fixing to help the land to recuperate after the corn. That doesn't mean that the field is magically like new again, it means that by rotating crops a healthier ecosystem results. You know, sort of like a real ecosystem with diversity and all.

Re: "Kelp" comment. I would have to refer back to the "Bio-Diesel is great as long as we don't over tax (read: use) our food producing farmlands" statement I made in the original post. Mainly the part where I talk about over-using the farmlands. Not a lot of Kelp farms in Iowa the last time I checked, but I'll look into it.

Sorry, usually I try to avoid the agitated replies. But if you are going to throw the :banghead: at me, then you'd better be right.
 
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another110

Guest
I found some numbers on production size needs.
Let?s say we stick with soybeans. Looking at this chart it can produce up to 50 gallons/acre/year.

Soybean: 40 to 50 US gal/acre (35 to 45,000 L/km?)
Rapeseed: 110 to 145 US gal/acre (100 to 130,000 L/km?)
Mustard: 140 US gal/acre (130,000 L/km?)
Jatropha: 175 US gal/acre (160,000 L/km?)
Palm oil: 650 US gal/acre (580,000 L/km?) [2]
Algae: 10,000 to 20,000 US gal/acre (9,000,000 to 18,000,000 L/km?)
Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/biodiesel

Stats from Mike Briggs show the total US transportation cost, if we all switched to biodiesel, at around 140.8 billion gallons of fuel consumed a year. Read here http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html for more info on how he got this number.

140.8 billion gallons / 50 gallons/acre = 2,816,000,000 acres needed. Also according to Briggs, the US has 450 million acres for growing crops (including crops for animals for the meat we eat). That?s far shy of the 2.8 billion needed. And that doesn?t include the home heating fuel needs.

That?s why just using farm lands wouldn?t work on a very simplistic scale. If you read the rest of Mike Brigg?s comments, he goes on to expound on how little land is needed for algae oil production. Still pie in the sky, but it is a better alternative.
 

MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
8,277
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OverBarrington IL
Ruffin' It said:
Oh Christ.
:banghead:

Re: "More misinformation"

No. I'm right. I'm actually 100% right. In the process of getting an Environmental Science degree with a emphasis on Alternative Energy I did pick up one or two things.

Re: "I grew up in Wisconsin"

Good. I grew up in Michigan. We have farms too. Lots of 'em.

Re: "renewing comment"

All plants take out some things and replenish others. By "renewing the field" that farmer wasn't saying that the Soybeans make it all better, he was saying that the Soybeans help with things like Nitrogen fixing to help the land to recuperate after the corn. That doesn't mean that the field is magically like new again, it means that by rotating crops a healthier ecosystem results. You know, sort of like a real ecosystem with diversity and all.

Re: "Kelp" comment. I would have to refer back to the "Bio-Diesel is great as long as we don't over tax (read: use) our food producing farmlands" statement I made in the original post. Mainly the part where I talk about over-using the farmlands. Not a lot of Kelp farms in Iowa the last time I checked, but I'll look into it.

Sorry, usually I try to avoid the agitated replies. But if you are going to throw the :banghead: at me, then you'd better be right.

well you may believe you are 100% right...but speaking as broad as you just did thats easy.

I never stated that kelp was grown in iowa...guess you lerned that while getting those degrees.

and I also never stated that growing soy beans made the fields all better. I stated that most the plant goes back into the ground and when using soy for biodiesel that is true.

your originale statement

"bio is great as long as we don't over-use it. Our farm lands are taxed enough right now. If we start trying to grow enough to power all the semi's in America we are going to screw ourselves."

this sounds pretty close to the doom and gloom misinformation that flys whenever biodiesel comes up. shit like "it will cause a dust bowl" and "strip the land" and "ruin farms" etc etc and most of it is just crap that people hear end repeat. the oil companies spew this stuff to mask their true intentions.

sorry you are offended by the :banghead: but I used it because thats how I feel when I hear blanket statements about bio diesel.

I am using the stuff now and support it because its a alternative that dosent send american dollars to the mid-east and I think thats a good thing.
 
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syoung

Guest
considering how long it takes to get anywhere in VT- biodiesel is still not a viable alternative for most of the state based on the list posted. driving two hours for fuel negates the 'reason' for alternative fuels somewhat.
My comments about the injection pumps failing is based on the Series Rovers, not the TDI as they are not available in the USA.
Gov't grants to convert vehicles to alternate fuels are not intended to override federal emissions law and allow you to import a 300tdi and rip out your V8. They are intended to help people convert petrol farm machinery (emissions exempt in most states), vehicles with existing diesel engines, or CNG equip petrol powered vehicles. It's still illegal to take the petrol V8 out of a Disco and swap in a diesel even if it is "for the planet" and all that hippie stuff. Removing the catalytic converters and air injection systems etc then causes the vehicle to be non-compliant with the certifications granted that vehicle when it passed EPA testing to be allowed for sale in the USA.
 

MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
8,277
0
OverBarrington IL
steve...here you go these are all VT vendors of bio-diesel


Boise Citgo
Rte 22A & Rte 125
Bridport, VT 05734 Joe Boise 802-758-2361 B100
CET Solar Store
1531 Route 131
Cavendish, VT 05142 Gary Winslow 802-226-7093 B100
Dan and Whits General Store
319 Main Street
Norwich, VT 05055 George Fraser 802-649-1602 B100, B20 7 days a week, all major credit cards accepted
Evans Expressmart
512 US Rte. 5 North
Fairlee, VT 05045 Dan Evans 802-333-9286 B10
Evans Expressmart
512 US Rte. 5 North
Fairlee, VT 05045 Dan Evans 802-333-9286 B10
Fleming Food Mart Shell Station
429 Canal St.
Brattleboro, VT 05301 Rick Fleming 802-254-6095 B20
General Truck & Equipment
1058 Westminster Heights Rd.
Westminster Heights, VT 05159 Bodie Kelton 802-722-3100 B100
Hart and Mead inc
10919 rt. 116
hinesburg, VT 05461 doug or john 802-482-2421 b20
Lucky Spot Variety
River Road
Richmond, VT 05477 Gary 802-434-2332 B20
Steves Citgo
Route 7
Charlotte, VT 05445 Steve 802-425-2741 B20


and dont sweat the injection pump BS with commercial bio-diesel its the oposite as what you have been hearing..due to higher lubricity the pumps last longer not shorter.

the only issues that people do see is that the really old pumps might start to leak due to seal break down. this isnt really because of the biod attacking the seals its because the biod has no aromatics that keep the seals supple. the stations that I just posted will in all likelyhood sell from B5 to B50...B100 is rare because it has gelling problems during the winter. the % of standard diesel in these fuels in most cases will keep the seals happy

I ran B100 most the summer, I just stepped down to B50 and will run B20 though the winter. Its not about running 100% bio IMHO its about lowering our reliance on imported oil.

I would never say that we should try to run every semi in america on bio...that would be unrealistic and stupid.

Thom
 
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