Ice and ABS "failure"

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Author Message   Ramsay (3toedsloth) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 01:26 pm:    Alright, I've had it. Whenever there's the slightest bit of ice on the road and I attempt to brake to a stop, my ABS just turns my truck into an uncontrollable sliding hunk of shit. After almost dying on several occasions, I'm ready to just sell the truck. However, we all know that the withdrawal symptoms would be just horrendous so I'm scratching that idea. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to disconnect the ABS system or possibly even fix it if this doesn't sound normal to you. I never have any sort of problem on dry roads, occasionally it'll kick in when it's raining or when I'm in mud (but not always). I don't brake excessively hard either. Please help so I don't have to sell my baby. JR   gp (Garrett) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 02:02 pm:    don't sell it over this of course. many folks disconnect the wonderful ABS on these trucks. i think the ABS on the D2's sucks too. disconnect the ABS under the hood. that is where the relay and fuses are you are looking for.   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 03:16 pm:    hold on JR, how do you know that it is ABS that turns your truck into an uncontrollable sliding hunk of shit? the only way to know is to brake on ice, then get back, pull the ABS fuse (marked on the fuse panel under the steering column), and then try it again. See if you like the changes. ABS does give you an odd feel, but in on-road situations it is rather an asset, not a hindrance. Off-road is a totally different story. Also - check how well the wheel speed sensors are seated in the axle. I've had an intermittent ABS problem - it would kick in while driving over a slightest bump on the road. Fixed by replacing the sensors. Be in control of your ABS. Keep in mind that if you disable the ABS and rear-end somebody, it can be construed as the cause of the accident, with some ugly consequences. peter   Danno (Danno) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 03:45 pm:    you could also remove the connector to the ABS pump. this should kill the ANTI-LOCK light from lighting up (from what i hear) or just pull all the fuses for the ABS.   Ramsay (3toedsloth) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 03:58 pm:    Peter, You bring up an interesting point... I'm fairly certain it's ABS because of the loud clicking I'm hearing during the breaking which is accompanied by the brake pedal shuddering. As tempting as pulling the fuse for the ABS system is, I'm intrigued by the wheel speed sensor idea. Can you elaborate on that a bit? (i.e.- original job, location, difficulty/expense to replace) Thanks for the info and ideas guys, keep it coming! JR   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 04:25 pm:    OK, your ABS is kicking in, more or less what it should do even one wheel is on ice or hydroplaning. Now, why do you think it's bad? The feeling under your foot makes you think that something is horribly wrong with your brakes - however, if ABS works as it should, it is not. Let me tell you - I don't like ABS, and can come with a number of very specific dislikes and reasons it shouldn't be used off road. But - on the road, it does shorten the stopping distance. Even the rear only ABS works (had it on a 4WD Aerostar). So, I put up with it on pavement, and pull the fuse while off-roading. The yellow ABS light on the dash serves as a reminder to put the fuse back on when I'm back on the blacktop. Now, your ABS may not work right, without tripping the yellow warning light. The most probable cause is unseated or bad wheel speed sensor - if the sensor is too far out in its bore, it will not pick up the signal, and lead the ABS computer to believe that the wheel is locked (causing the ABS to engage on this particular wheel, and pedal to pulsate). The sensors are located in the knuckles in the front axle, and ends of axle housing in the rear (don't have a photo - maybe Blue will post something). It takes a minute to replace one, or 5 to 10 if you're careful about fastening the cable the way it was. No need to take the wheels off. Cost of a new sensor - no idea, I bought a set from a wrecked '98 D1. No special tools needed - just a pair of pliers to pull the old one out. Clean up the area well before installing the new one. peter p.s. on dry pavement, ABS should not engage under any but the most severe braking. It may engage in if the road surface is uneven, making the wheels jump and lose traction momentarily.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 05:19 pm:    Peter you could not be wronger about ABS it sucks ON road if you hit a patch of slick shit as you are slowing down at a stop light, a normal car would lock over the icey part then skid onto the dry pavement on the other side. with ABS it happily turns on, when this happend the car just fucking goes.. you have to then (learn after a few close calls) mash the hell out of the brake to start to slow down. hopefully it will be in time. after driving in the snow for the past two weeks here. i can tell you my non abs range rover performs as expected and is predicatable. it allows _me the driver_ to look ahead and determine, do you want to skid, or do you want to steer. sometimes locking them up and skidding while hoping they will find dry pavement is beter than slowly ramming the back of another car. sometimes sliding sideways is what it calls for, ever try that in ABS car? the only time ABS is good in my book is at 85 MPH on dry pavement. then steering is an issue. ABS is the devil rd p.s. funny thing is my ABS never came on once when i offroaded, but i was stressed out it would.   Ramsay (3toedsloth) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 05:36 pm:    Rob, Thank you for conveying in words what I could not. Peter, I am well aware of ABS's function, and of the fact that it will increase stopping times and distances. However, it is not so much this 'increase' I am concerned with as much as it is the lack of any apparent braking whatsoever when it is engaged. Take for example an incident that occured two years ago... I was approaching the crest of a hill that leads down into a major intersection (speed approx. 25-30mph). I assessed the situation and realized that due to the slush on the road, braking might take a bit longer than usual. I began braking at the top of the hill. Then, TRAGEDY STRIKES!!! My ears were greeted by the sounds of ABS! Oh no! Stay calm, relax, this thing is meant to take care of you. NO! I casually rolled 200 yards down the hill and into a major intersection, ABS clicking away happily the whole time. I am confident that without the Land Rover ABS I could have stopped halfway down the hill, if not sooner. It is because of this incident, and a few other similar incidents that I am now planning on disconnecting the ABS. Perhaps a good medium would be to disconnect it for snow driving only? In the meantime, thanks to all. Any more suggestions are welcome. Capt. Drama, JR   muskyman Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 05:51 pm:    capt drama, peters point if I took him correctly is you just may have a poorly working system and because of that your truck needs attention. your last story really dosent say alot. for all you know with standard brakes you may have ended up going through that intersection backwards in a spin. ABS does stretch braking distances from what they could be with a expert driver utilizing threshold bracking techniques. but to think that while tooling down the street the average guy can stop and control a vehicle better with out ABS is just very short sited. Do you really think they would have mandated it in every car if it wasent much better on average? check your system over before disconnecting it, you owe it to the other people on the road. thom   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 05:57 pm:    Rob, I dig the snow argument, but not the ice thing. I believe it's your perception that the shit keeps going, rather than actual stopping distance with and without ABS. Moreover, with ABS on, no matter how hard you smash the brake pedal, it won't change jack shit - it'll just bleed off the [it considers] excessive pressure. All said, ABS does not necessarily work correctly. It happened to me before, you know how many times I've been bitchin' about the ABS. Now - new sensors, and seated all the way, and no ABS glitches (mine was kicking in during moderate braking on flat dry asphalt). Quote: I am well aware of ABS's function, and of the fact that it will increase stopping times and distances JR, this is the statement that has to be backed up. The incident you mentioned doesn't tell me if you would slow down any quicker if ABS was disconnected. What Rob has in mind, in situations when there's snow on packed snow or snow on ice, it helps to have a little ridge of snow built under tires - which would only happen with the wheels locked up. It is a common on-road situation, but one of great many possibilities. Whoever designed ABS had targeted the most frequent situations - which, I believe, include braking on flat ice surface or panic stops from highway speeds. It's all up to you - if you don't like ABS, install a kill switch or simply pull the fuse. And be ready to be held liable should you run into somebody and disfunctional ABS deemed to be the cause. peter   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 05:59 pm:    Thom, you beat me again by 6 minutes   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 06:23 pm:    yes, i think that there are so many people out there that do not know how to drive or brake properly that insurance company's lover the fact that it will keep you steering straight. it's like CDL, land rover took it out not because it wont make you drive better, but that stupid women dont know how to use it. furthermore i was always under the impression that ABS never really did much for stopping distance, but more for steering. also maybe my sensors were bad, but is that the same with the 4 or 5 other abs car i drove that all sucked in the same manner? i guess my biggest beef about ABS is that it reacts without look at what's in front of it. i can therefore i am superior. chauvinist and loving it rd   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 06:35 pm:      Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 06:51 pm:    damn Blue, you really had to stick your head under the fender to take that one! Rob, you know, where we live the most frequent hazard is a sudden panic stop of the traffic on the highway. From 85 to nothing as soon as you can - and that's where ABS kicks in and does a commendable job. I would never bother replacing the sensors, but the disco ain't my daily driver. peter   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 06:56 pm:    You didnt give him the number one reason that ABS sucks Rob....lol That dude out west could have gotten a Disco that had an ass job over that shit.... Kyle   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 07:32 pm:    guess who pays for an ass job, Kyle? oh, and pain and suffering, too. peter   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 07:45 pm:    Well I damn near ass ended Rob at an intersection in PA when mine decided to take a vacation. I had to run up on the concrete median to slow the damn thing down and not hit him... Kyle   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 07:52 pm:    i shant for get that... kyle. slight rain, bumpy pavement , redlight, disco with abs.. whata combinations. rd   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 08:15 pm:    so, disco DID stop faster? peter   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 08:16 pm:    i mean the one with working ABS peter   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 09:28 pm:    hell no. kyle took it into the other lane onto the median. i guess without ABS he would not have been albe to steer it ;) rd   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 09:34 pm:    ramsay, read this ../17/1980.html"#333333">   Milan (Milan) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 09:36 pm:    Soon we should have some computer made to steer for us too. I'm sure it will be better on average because as a society we're degenerating. Every safety device and/or law we have, we have because of idiots. Yet those devices/laws don't make the world safer. Most of the time quite the opposite.   Brian Dickens (Bri) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 09:49 pm:    I went down a trail that was shear ice this past weekend. ABS did nothing all 4 wheels locked and my disco was not the only one acting this way. What does that mean?   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 10:04 pm:    wel if you didnt get it above 5 mph i dont think it's engaged. if you did go above 5 mph on an icy trail , you just plain nuts rd   Peter Carey (Pcarey) Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 10:49 pm:    I haveto agree that ABS in general isn't the best option for an "experienced" driver. It won't make you stop faster since that's not what it's set up to do. It's meant to give average joe driver the ability to steer when he would otherwise lock up and skid in an uncontrolled manner. Most of the drivers in this nation aren't like the people on this board. I'm guessing a fair number here, when they were teenagers(or now), did all kinds of insane things in some average ordinary cars without ABS. So you got used to the way things skidded and slid and chalked it up as a "skill". Well, most of the nation doesn't know how to control a car in panic situations. Just take a look at driver's ed. They teach you all the rules and such but, at least where I came from, didn't do a whole lot of hands on evasive manuevering training. So people start slaming on brakes (after following too close in bad conditions which is probably the biggest factor for a need for ABS) and not avoiding "accidents". In steps our lovely government and says to the auto industry "You gotta make it so people can steer while braking and make it automatic" and happily ever after everyone gets ABS whether they need it or not. It's not meant to stop you faster, it's meant to give you control. In Kyle's last case it gave him more control. But then again, I'm assuming by his comments that simply locking all 4 up would have stopped him sooner with a better margin of comfort. In think in the end ABS in general for the general population has saved more lives than not having it. But the reverse is it probably has increased the number of nonfatal accidents that could have been avoided if good old fashioned rubber meets asphalt friction were allowed to do its job. Much like the air bags now, we need a switch to turn it off. Around town it ain't much help. Get these heavy trucks on the freeway doing 70 in the rain and I personally wouldn't mind a little more control in an emergency. pwc   muskyman Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 11:01 pm:    I think its 7mph if my memory serves right(its in the manual) that way you can crawl on icy shit at a stop light and not step on the brakes get a pulse and hit the guy in front of you. I remember when the first ABS cop cars where delivered in chicago. about 2 weeks later the first snowy day about 30 squad cars rear ended people. turns out that GM's system didnt have the low speed lockout. during the squad car conversion they increase the idle about 250 rpm over stock to make sure the alternator produces enough amps for all the equipment. that 250 rpm was just enough to make the cars creep hard at stop lights there tires would lock kick in the system the cops would jam on there brakes...opps too late rearendo. the best part was listening to all the bullshit reasons the cops kept giving untill they claimed/blaimed the conversion company's I still think they where unfamiliar with the pulsing pedal thing and just let off and hit people. but never the less well trained drivers having ABS related accidents.   Kyle Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 05:12 am:    I wasnt going that fast but when it got into the bumps the ABS freaked and wouldnt stop freaking even after backing out of the brake and then getting back on them. That was the last ride for the ABS in mine... Kyle   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 01:24 pm:    Kyle, ABS _will_ freak out on bumps. Land Rover's claim that this is the only off-road capable ABS system made me laugh every time I heard this. Backing off the brakes and reapplying them wouldn't help. On ice, there's another possibility that I can think of. ABS doesn't know the speed of the vehicle, it only compares the wheels' speeds. If you lock up ALL the tires nicely on ice, it wouldn't even kick in! peter   muskyman Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 01:56 pm:    Kyle, so in a old body grand wagoneer with ruff rack and half the supllies from your garage packed on board do you lock the brakes up on those bumps? and do you hit the vehicle or can you stear around and miss them? peter, your right I'v done it doing donuts out on frozen lakes a number of times, if you are going sideways and lock them and spin out ABS wont kick in either still need my jollies thom   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 02:18 pm:    Thom, Kyle has bad allergy to wagoneers. I think he had one peter   Ramsay (3toedsloth) Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 02:52 pm:    Woah, I go see my girl for a night and the post explodes. I'm not sure I understand the story about the stoplight, but it seems that half of you are pro ABS and half are anti-ABS. I agree that ABS is probably meant for drivers who flail when placed in a skid. Maybe I've focused more on stories than I have explaining my problem. When I use the brakes in snow/ice I can feel the car breaking as usual. However, at a certain point (usually an inappropriate time) during the braking, I'd say about the time I get down to 10mph or less is when ABS kicks in. As soon as the clicking begins it is as though the brakes release completely. Often the truck begins to speed up again. Does this still sound like wheel speed sensors to ya'll or does it just sound like the Land Rover ABS system? Has anyone installed a disconnect for the ABS in the cab? I think this would be the ideal system as I agree that in a rapid braking situation at 85mph on dry asphalt ABS would be useful. If not, which fuse is the easiest to pull to disable the system temporarily? I'm still just looking for suggestions, especially since this snowfall has melted. Once again, thanks for the help and keep the ideas coming. Sincerely, JR   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 04:31 pm:    my ABS saved my ass 2 weeks ago. approaching a green traffic light at about 45 mph. light turns yellow, but I kept going as I rightly should have (no way I could have physically stopped behind the white line even if I stood on the brakes - abs or no abs). One of those yellows where 2 cars behind me would have gone through too and a cop watching would have waved & smiled. anyway, dumb fucker waiting to turn left stomps the gas as soon as yellow light flashes. I flash brights, get kung fu grip on wheel & dumb fucker STOPS with her front end in my lane. I quick check mirrors, slam brake pedal through the floorboard, jerk wheel right to avoid the hit & quick jerk left to get the ass end to avoid the hit. I swerve around this bitch while I count her fucking nose hairs. can't believe we didn't hit. I had to do another right/left wheel jerk to maintain control. I seriously thought we were going over. brake pedal was tapdancing under my foot. but had perfect control the whole time. thank god for OME HD. no rear sway, front still attached. best part was boss was in town and I seriously think he almost shit himself. his left foot was up on top of the dash and his ass was almost off the seat cushion after we straightened out. I don't have to deal with the snow & ice out here in AZ, but I think I'd just pull the fuse for snow & ice or offroad if I felt it was a big hindrance offroad (which I don't).   Ramsay (3toedsloth) Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 04:43 pm:    Damn. Where's the camera when you need it? Seriously though. I'm glad you didn't hit. I think after hearing a story like that I'm going to go for the temporary disconnect function. Now here's the question, I've been thinking and it'd be nice to have one of those sweet ass missle triggers (the ones with the red flip up cover) somewhere in the link to my ABS system so I can turn it off when I don't want it, but still let it save my ass in the urban jungle. Anyone have an idea of where I could tap into the ABS wiring in the cab of the truck. Doesn't have to be near the dash, shit under the dash would probably even be better (i.e.- fuses for ABS in cab? or all under the hood. I don't have my owners manual handy). Anyone done this before, or do you just yank the fuse(s)? Still just thinking, maybe too hard. JR   ja Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 05:00 pm:    Hi bud - I live with the same problem. My message was similar - just looking for a pic. This thread is too long to read. Listen - instead of constant - imminent death - just disconnect the plug. The plug is under the hood above the drivers tire - its an opaque/translucent colored plug about 18 inches from the firewall. I disconnect in Decemeber (Southern NH) and re-connect in March. I live with the "ABS" light and 4-wheel disc brakes. These guys are yahoos. Don't let them insult you. 4-wheel discs are nice. -JA   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 06:07 pm:    JR, just pop the cover under the steering column, the fuse is clearly labeled ABS. Either pull it (and stick into the styrofoam so you don't lose it), or use this fuse's terminals to rig a switch that you can place about anywhere you like. not a big deal, either. the reason I responded to your post was that from what I could read in it, you had no clear idea of how it works and what does it do. So I am not advocating any solution - disabling the ABS or learning how/when to use it; you could spend fifteen minutes braking in different road situations and map its action for yourself, and then make an informed decision. Mind it, should you have hit somebody in the incident you mentioned, blaming it on ABS would be your worst (or most expensive) line of defense. peter   Kyle Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 08:21 pm:    You arent getting me , it was in no way a pannick stop. There was a few of us following Rob and I was just rolling in behind him at a light. Nothing that a regular set of brakes wouldnt have taken care of easily. I have had many cars with ABS (Fords) and worked on christ only knows how many differnt makes. This ABS system sucks the worst hands down... The turbo cars are really the only ABS cars that I ran real hard and if they got freaked by a tire getting light in a turn or something you simply had to get off and back on them to get things right with the universe again.. Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 10:51 am:    I know what you're talking about Kyle. I've only driven this Disco once on ice - it was an icy/bumpy/rocky trail above Sedona and I was a prisoner of gravity. I couldn't believe it. Pedal just pulsated and disco kept goin forward like some goofy dog. Letting off the pedal and pushing it back down did nothing. Why is that? I haven't had any problems in normal dry offroad conditions, but if I drove in icy conditions regularly that fuse would be yanked out of line faster than a young boy on a tour of a Catholic seminary.   muskyman Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 11:06 am:    one thing to keep in mind is the volume of fluid in the calipers goes up as the pads wear. the larger the volume of fluid in the calipers the slower the system can pump this is why companys came out with all kinds of wear indicator lights when they put ABS on there vehicles. if your ABS is really stupid the first thing I would do is change the fluid and put in fresh pads. when I got my 94 it kicked in on dry pavement on little bumps right before the truck would stop. a complete flush and fresh pads made it work pefect. now 30k later its just starting to be stupid again. pads and a flush I'll bet its right back to working perfect i guess even with the shortcommings of ABS I'll take stearing and no brakes over brakes and a spinout   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 11:13 am:    interesting point   Milan (Milan) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 11:40 am:    Tires will play a big role as well. Just ask Alan Yim.   gp (Garrett) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 11:40 am:    then why does LR seem to continue to use a system that apparently has issues? i drove a 2000 D2 this past snow and it was a little better, but still very annoying and dangerous in my opinion. while at a stop light doing MAYBE 5 mph it kicked on and the truck slid on a snow covered intersection and almost into it. friction from 'standard' brakes would never have done this.   muskyman Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 12:09 pm:    I know it seams that way ,and its nice to have someone to blame when you slide into a intersection. but thats just not what tests have shown TRC in ohio has a jenite skid pad, its about as slippery as a snowy intersection and can be made to be way more slippery. they have tested ABS over and over for all kinds of groups from both sides of the fence. they have also tested it using different methods trying to replicate conditions that happened in particular accidents and the truth is ABS just works better in nearly all circumstances when the system is in proper working order. one of the reasons I think so many people complain about this is they have very little expierience driving tall heavy vehicles. due to weight transfer the taller a vehicle is the tougher it is to stop. add in a roof rack and now your doing 90% of your braking on a 5000+lb vehicle with just one axle. the disco is a heavy ass brick! it feels light and nimble because its set up well but it still has the mass of a heavy truck its gonna stop slower then a little car and way way way slower then the BMW"s MB's and other high performance cars many owners climbed out of. if you took someone like my buddy with a suburban his impression is he thinks my disco has the best brakes he's ever felt? I'm not knocking anyone here, I'm just saying that sometimes people get to accustomed to there truck and forget all the people who used to slide all the way through intersections on snowy days back when cars had "standard" braking systems.   gp (Garrett) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 12:21 pm:    i have been driving discos for the past 3 to 4 years. all three of them sucked in regards to the ABS. the D2 i was driving last week was just a good typical example. i mean i have been at an intersection at a COMPLETE stop and i let off the brake and then reapply and the ABS go ass-happy and i am slidding. that just ain't cool. i have driven all kinds of cars/trucks with ABS and NEVER encountered anything like this. i am not disregarding what you are saying musky, but i just don't understand why LR's seem to be so 'different' in this case. the ABS just seems so damn sensitive and to a point where it CAN be dangerous. there is no doubt about it. but then again maybe if i was driving an audi 5000 back in the 80's i would have bitched about the sudden acceleration!!! haha.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 12:22 pm:    he fact that ABS comes on without consideration to what is in front of you. if it came on at speeds of 50 mph then i might be cool with it. if the ABS system is this prone to failure, which can happen at anytime, then the whole system sucks and is a LIABILITY. let say i coast thru an intersection and wreck, and i tell the insuracne guy, my brakes fucked up and felt weird and i didn't stop. he'll tell me "thats was just the ABS system you were feeling" and then i get fucked. where as my break system MALFUCTIONED. as far as i am concerned this isn't my fault, components of the breaks should not be able to just fail. now of course i dont have to worry about this now, and it makes driving that much more enjoyable. rd   muskyman Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 12:27 pm:    till you go metal to metal and lock a tire and hit someone my point is that they take more maintenance to keep working correctly. standard brakes fail too, just most often in different ways then ABS systems. also as someone up above mentioned tires have a huge roll in all this as well are you really surprised LR uses a system that needs lots of expensive shop time to keep working correctly?   Ramsay (3toedsloth) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 12:46 pm:    I grow weary of the ABS gestapo.   Brian Dickens (Bri) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 12:59 pm:    Well I believe that I had gone over 5 MPH before hitting the ice. However I was likely not going over 5 MPH when I touched the brakes and they completely locked. I tought that the ABS activated once you went over 5 MPH (i.e. when the light goes out). I did not realize that it never engages when below 5 MPH, is this right? After sliding a while, I betcha I was going over 5, I tried tapping once or twice. Did nothing. Good thing there were ruts in the ice, that kept me nicely on the road ;-)   Milan (Milan) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 03:06 pm:    Well I think musky has a lot of good points and all valid. The ABS should be better than us and the Disco is heavy and it hides the weight well (not under accelleration or when you try to stop, mind you). But guess what. I used to drive a Suburban and I still have a fullsize Bronco and even the Bronco is 4900lbs when totally empty, thus heavier than the Disco. Yet, I can stop it better than the Disco. And it's on just as shitty tires. If I were to keep the ABS on in the Disco, I'd be constantly overshooting my stopping point/distance with it. I found with the ABS, on has to start braking way earlier than without it and one never knows whether it's going to kick in or not. That's what bothers me. Never knowing how much distance I will need to stop. Granted, if we're talking ice, I can assume it will kick in every time. But if mine is off, I can feel for traction and decide on steering as well. With ABS you may think you can steer but if you carry too much speed on ice to begin with, the results will be the same. You either can't steer and/or you overshoot the corner anyway. My point? If I carry the correct amount of speed, I sure as heck don't need ABS. It's when I screw up and misjudge the surface/traction/conditions that things can go wrong. And then I'd rather leave it up to me to decide what to do than leaving it up to ABS to disable my brakes. Keep in mind, I'm talking ice, so I'm probably going a bit slower than 85mph on dry pavement. So the panic situation is probably different - things happening slower. I disabled mine after I kept creeping into an intersection at what seemed like 1/2 mph without stopping. The idiots getting greeen light almost rammed me thinking that since I'm hardly moving, I must stop any second now but the fricking thing just kept on going until we almost had a collision. Would not have happened without ABS. Then again maybe it was just those high-traction skinny stock Michelins.   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 04:40 pm:    okay, next time i hit ice in the mountains, i'll shoot some video of braking action with and without ABS enabled. what many of you are describing sounds like a malfunctioning ABS (bad or unseated sensor). I've had plenty of that shit, but, as I said earlier, with reinstalled (and presumed nearly new) sensors my wife hasn't reported ANY braking issues. Milan, sure the Disco will not brake as well as Bronco or Sub - both having longer wheelbase, larger track width, and lower center of gravity. All more reason to ensure it stays straigt under heavy braking. peter   Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 05:34 pm:    The hill Brian Dickens is talking a about was icy as I have ever experienced. By the time I was to the bottom I was going faster than I started. My abs are de-fused so i went down completely locked. Hell of a feeling. I was just floating along looking for something to stop against if I had to. Here's a q. On the cv joints...there are ridges in a complete circumferance, my guess is that the abs sensor reads these ridges right? Blue...do you have a pick of the rear abs sensors? brian   Milan (Milan) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 05:37 pm:    Peter, I doubt the COG on the Bronco is lower. The wheel base is only 4.5" more I think but it is wider. Thie width and length attributes to stability but as far as stopping distance goes, I doubt if it has that much effect. My ABS is fine as far as I know and as far as the dealer is concerned. But even my wife likes it better without it on. It was just way too sensitive for our liking. Like I said before, with better tires it may actually be liveable. I don't care either way, though. You're right about video-taping too. I also considered this as I was typing my previous post. It's been debated enough that I'd like to see if I can actually prove my points on a video. If not, oh well, then I'll just stick to the argument that it is my choice to have a non-ABS car. On a Disco ABS should stand for Anti-Braking System. Just like the ECU is an Electronic Clusterfuck Unit.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 05:44 pm:    close   muskyman Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 05:45 pm:    this sounds like an intreting idea,I may need to rev up the camera over the holidays and shot some video myself. I will be up at the lake so there should be no shortage of snow and ice. i did do some testing with my old BMW autocrosser at a driving school once and on perfect pavement only about 10% of the students could stop faster without hitting the side cones without the ABS.   Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 05:53 pm:    Blue, Thanks. Do they set in just like the front?   muskyman Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 06:05 pm:    well shit Blue ABS or not your gonna have a hard time without pads   Kyle Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 06:14 pm:    ABS should pulse as long as it senses the right conditions. When these things start acting up it starts when it shouldnt and it wont stop... I know enough about ABS to know the the Disco ABS has some issues.. Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 06:14 pm:    maybe that's my problem....have to have a LR certified mechanic check that out for me   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 06:20 pm:    Milan, on the C.G. issue - Disco has steel roof (very fucking high up there), and lots of glass (very heavy, too). The difference in the road feel between a Disco and a Rangie with the same suspension is striking. Thom, if you have ice close by, please do us a favor and shoot some video. peter   Ramsay (3toedsloth) Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 07:35 pm:    The switch is going in this weekend. I've decided on one of those light up jobbies so it serves as an extra reminder (in addition to the dash light) to cut the bitch back on when I hit dry pavement. Continue to bicker, this is fun to read. JR   muskyman Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 01:50 am:    peter I'll be up at the lake for a week over the holidays...i'll find some nice ice and shoot some videos. I can shoot them as 336k mpegs and maybe we can get kyle to post them? thom   Milan (Milan) Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 12:12 pm:    That's a great idea Thom. I probably won't get out until after Christmas myself.   Joey Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 03:47 am:    My 2 cents worth. Being a firefighter in charge of driving 15 ton fire appliances from different manufacturers , as well as various Landrovers, I think ABS is a tremendous asset to driving , if used properly. Our advanced driving instructions include both ABS and non-ABS braking skills, and I can safely state that in ALL conditions (Ice, Snow, Water) ABS provides better braking. The only situation where ABS MIGHT provide unwanted effects is when driving off-road. Joey   Russian landy Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 10:48 am:    The ABS on my Disco-Pig seems to work just fine. The problem on ice, I think, is simple physics -- 2 1/2 tons of Disco-Iron adds up to a whole lot of inertia. YOu simply have no hope with that much weight on ice without studs, with or without ABS. I believe the Disco-Pig would be still worse without ABS. My BMW 540 with ABS weighs 3/4 ton less, and is much more manageable on ice.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 04:09 pm:    cross your fingers ruskie you will need the luck the first time the ABS fails and you go sailing thru and intersection. rd   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 08:06 pm:    Russian Landy- Your BMW 540i with ABS is different beast. Think about BMW's DSC and how it will apply brakes to one wheel if needed where the D2 will apply brakes to two (cross wheel I think). I've driven on roads where the right half of the road has packed snow on it while the left half was dry pavement. In my D2 when I hit the brakes I can feel the ABS pulse and the car will roll MUCH longer than if the two left wheels were actually helping stop the car. The left wheels felt like they were also pulsing even though the road was fine. One my 540i/6 it's a different story. I hit the brakes and the car stops. If I was on a road with all four tires on packed snow the D2 would actually stop much faster due to the tires. The D2 has BFG AT's while the 540i/6 has the non-siped sport tires that will skid even on even wet pavement.   Norm Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 11:29 pm:    The thing is, if Land Rover's ABS actually worked reliably it might be worthwhile -- but it doesn't. The problem is that it's too prone to failure -- unexpectedly and at the worst times. I've had other vehicles (Hondas and Saabs) that have ABS systems that actually work reliably and have had no problems -- not so with the Landy. And the price for parts? ABS sensors (the part most prone to failure) at $250 or more a pop? And you have to hope that the crappy sensor boot remains seated properly? If anything else goes bad, you're looking at $$$$ just for the parts. Forget it!!! I'm better off with the ABS disabled and knowing what to expect when I hit the brakes -- rather than not knowing when the fucker is going to have a brain fart and send me through a red light into a busy intersection at 5 mph with my right foot pushed through the floorboard. If I slide in snow and ice, I can deal with it -- just slow down and leave room to stop. ---Norm   Russian Landy Posted on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 02:04 am:    Well, my 540 doesn't have DSC, just plain old ABS, and it still stops better than the Disco. So far I have put it down to weight, and also unsprung weight -- the heavy solid axles on the Disco-Pig will cause the tires to lose contact with the ground momentarily if the surface is uneven and craze the ABS -- the Bimmer has light aluminum all independent suspension which keeps the wheels stuck tight on the ground -- I'll bet that makes a big difference in stopping on slick surfaces. Of course, the Beemer has Bosch and the Disco has Lucas -- and it sounds like the brothers here have had a lot of problems with the Lucas ABS. Would you trust the Prince of Darkness to get you stopped? Remember the old joke about Lucas making the only fuel injection system you have to light with a match? So far I haven't had any problems but after hearing all this I think I'm going to be more careful now with the Disco on ice.   shawn peterson Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 01:17 am:    Best of both worlds Slam the brake (foot pedal) ABS kicks in At the same moment yank the "emergency" brake, rear wheels lock up, no need to guess which will work better in a periless situation.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 10:37 am:    shawn, you realize that the land rovers e-brake is connected to the drive shft and wont lock up the ass end like a conventional vehicle? i agree, the ebrake can be a last resort. i always have it handy while offroad rd   shawn peterson Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 04:17 pm:    rd also usefull when passing a police cruiser for the stealth slow down. didn't know that about the drive shaft.   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 04:45 pm:    shawn, it works okay for a stealth slow down, but by no means for a panic stop. and you really need to guess what happens when you yank the parking brake lever in a rover at 80mph. peter   Norm Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 10:32 pm:    The owners manual on my '95 makes dire warnings about severe driveline damage from activating the parking brake while the vehicle is moving -- which would make sense. However, there are a couple of people on this board who swear they drive around at all times with their hand firmly planted on the parking brake lever -- makes me wonder what they have to grab onto for security when they're just walking around town. ---Norm "A feller could get arrested for that in public."