Articulation OME vs. OEM

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Author Message   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 12:18 pm:    1) With the sway bar still attached, and Disco unladen, is the Old Man Emu HD suspension MORE or LESS flexable than the Stock (65,000 miles old) springs? i.e. am I going to hit 3 wheel motion easier with OME HD? 2) What if I remove the swaybar?   JEEPETR Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 02:41 pm:    Hey William, Ultimately, you will loose some articulation over the stock truck. The reasons are two fold. First, the Old Man Emu Springs are not only stiffer, but longer, with more winds. This means that they cannot physically compress to the same length before they coil bind (no gaps left between any of the coils), no matter how much weight is applied. Given that the Sway bars will limit drop travel, and I am assuming you are using OME shocks (which are only marginally longer than stock) you will loose up travel, and gain no drop travel over stock. Loose the Sway Bars, and you will see better articulation, but still less than the stock system was capable of sans the bars (Still limited by the shock length). If you wish to gain suspension travel, you will need to run a longer than stock shock. A 10" travel shock (with a two inch longer bump stop) in the rear will give you significant gains in rear articulation, and bring you right up to the line of dropping the spring from the seat (fashion some retainers to be safe, and definitely get longer rear brake lines!). The Stock 8" travel front shocks will give you all that you can use in the front without unseating the OME HD front spring (Again, remove sway bar, or use disconnects for full movement). Longer springs in the Front will allow the use of a 10" travel shock, but you will never be able to use it all without further modification to the suspension, the design is simply too tight. William, this could go on for Pages, but I am assuming you are interested in a moderate height gain, and moderate increase in articulation. If this is what you are after, go Rovertym Springs. I like OME, but Rovertym's springs are longer (particularly in the front) and will allow you to run a longer shock, sway bars disconnects, and have a balanced front to rear suspension with 10" rear shocks. Toss the rear sway bar, you won't ever know you lost it after switching to better, stiffer springs. As for Shocks, go Bilstein.... I hope this has been some help, if you have any questions, feel free to e-mail me... ~Scott T. '95 D-90 (JEEPETR) '96 Discovery (5-Speed)   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 03:31 pm:    After all the posts I read saying that OME is better than RTM, I go buy OME and now I'm loosing traction while articulating. Anyone want to buy some OME Springs (751, 781)? Why do so many use OME if they reduce movement?   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 03:43 pm:    Bill, You believe everything you read on this board? OME shocks are not the same length as the Woodhead shocks. They are 1" longer at full extension and roughly the same at full compression.   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 03:55 pm:    It's William or BJ, not Bill. What is Woodhead?   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 03:58 pm:    I believe some things on this board because some people on this board have been doing this a lot longer and more intensive than I have. Some have had OME, then RTM then OME then stock then... I figure they would know.   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 04:05 pm:    You figured wrong.   michel Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 04:19 pm:    Reasons you may want OME like I did, both shocks and springs is for expedition work fully loaded for thousands of miles. Articulation is good not the best possible, but the setup will handle anything like hundreds of miles of washboard roads, to extreme trails. You must know what you need before buying. Michel   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 04:25 pm:    The stock shocks on a Land Rover are made by Woodhead. -L   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 04:27 pm:    bj, after calling you bj do you really want a definition of WOODHEAD?   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 04:39 pm:    William, I run OME Heavy Duty 751 front and 762 rear springs. Even with OME N44 shocks, my rear wheels still stuff far enough to rub on the inside of the wheel well. No loss of stuff for me...   matt Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 04:40 pm:    Why are you guys busting this guy's balls?   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 04:54 pm:    William, Take a look at: http://www.yellowdefender.com/twist_off_1999/twist_off_result/fig3_1.gif This graph was made by Rich Hills as part of his write-up of the 1999 Twist-Off results. You can see in there that the stock D90 ramped about 650 and the OME D90 ramped 834. The stock D90 was used as a control and I believe it had the swaybars removed. To confuse matters, the OME D90 had the SG drop kit fitted to the rear shocks. However, I highly doubt the drop kit adds even close to 200 RTI points. I think a stock D90 with swaybars on ramps about 550. As Jeepetr says, the OME springs are stiffer and taller than the Land Rover factory coils and some uptravel is lost. However, Jeepetr is mistaken about the length of the OME shocks. The OME shocks are indeed longer than the Woodhead shocks. Thus, there is additional drop permitted by the longer OME shocks. I have never been interested enough in this RTI stuff to go out and measure stock vs. OME RTI measurements. If I had to guess, I would guess that the OME ramps a bit more than the stock. Again, that is just a guess. What is more important is that the RTI difference between stock and OME is so small as to be de minimis and insignificant.   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 04:57 pm:    I am 21 years old and for 21 years I have heard every BJ joke there is. There aren't that many, none are good, and they certainly don't bother me. If they did, don't you think that I would NOT request to be called that.   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 05:20 pm:    The whole reason I am asking is because I DON'T know. I am not trying to create a pissing contest here, just wondering why I HAVE LOST traction. I have already seen the millions of bad comments and handfull of good ones about my tires, so now I am asking about other aspects. It does seem logical in the rules of physics that the stiffer springs could reduce travel, but it also seem posible that the short lenght of my stock shocks cause the lack in wheel drop reducing travel and consequently traction. All I know is I spent nearly $1000 on new tires and OME springs and I can't go where I used to go so I am PISSED. While traveling straight up a rugged hill (where all that matters is tire preformance and which wheels are turning) I performed the same as in the past on stock, but while on uneven ground I lost traction way sooner. If it is my tires, then fine, its my own fault for going against the advice of THIS BOARD (so there, I don't believe everything I read here). But if I bought the springs thinking I could go farther due to higher ground clearance and MORE articulation, and was WRONG, then I am going to be REAL PISSED. Again I don't know, and haven't gone off road enough to varify that articulation was lost or for what reason. I am just asking.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 05:34 pm:    >"but it also seem posible that the short lenght of my stock shocks cause the lack in wheel drop reducing travel and consequently traction." there you go - replace those stock shocks. and get a rear locker...   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 05:40 pm:    Rear locker is big bucks buddy, I am working on a broke college student budget here, AND I have a damn Rover, so I am really in the gutter Shocks will be next, and then I will do some flex comparison with a stock Rover, and if he/she beats me, I'm gonna throw something and curse.   Ron Ward (Ronward) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 05:52 pm:    William, You have to ask yourself "self, why do I want OME or RTE or Big Blue or whatever springs?" Had you asked yourself that simple question, you would have answered what? I think, based on this thread and the times I have seen your posts before, that you wanted some lift to fit a bigger tire. Well, the truth is this. If you lift to fit new tires and nothing else, you loose a bunch of articulation. To keep same articulation, you have to replace stock length shocks with extended shocks. After that, run in extended brake lines up front and fab an extended mount for the rear brake line coupler. This is precisely the advice you have received in the past on this board. No one told you to expect increased articulation by just adding bigger tires and OME coils. It's pretty simple if you think it out rationally. Adding longer and stronger springs is doing two things. 1, lifting vehicle higher off the ground and 2, reducing the distance in up and down travel. Got it? We know you're upset, anyone would be. But get over it and spend your money on longer shocks next time. Ron Ward   JEEPETR Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 05:54 pm:    Hey Guys, Don't get me wrong, Old Man Emu is Quality Stuff, and I run their springs on both my Trucks. The gentleman asked about articulation, and lets be honest, dealer or not John, Old Man Emu Heavy Duty springs will not compress to as short a height as stock springs will, and the Old Man emu shocks are still a tad shy of an 1" longer than stock (not to mention the Joke Long Travel Remote shocks, which are no longer travel than the rest of the Old Man Emu Rover line). He asked about articulation, and I answered. The RoverTyms Springs, William, were if you wanted to run longer shocks in the front, for greater articulation, because the Old Man Emu 751's will fall out if you run 10" travel shocks up front. John, I don't know you personally, but respect the opinion of anyone who has been there and done that. I've been there and done that with several trucks, and don't appreciate your implication that I don't know what I am talking about. If you take a stock suspended Discovery, Bolt on Heavy Duty OME springs and Shocks, you will loose overall articulation. This is what he asked, and this is what I told him.... ~Scott T. '95 D-90 (JEEPETR) '96 Discovery (5-Speed)   Jarrod Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 05:58 pm:    Sorry, just had to add the .02 - I don't think anybody is bustin BJ's balls - I just think that he is ready to argue or fight with people because he is discouraged and pissed. So be it, but chill man. Hardly ever does more get accomplished by having a temper tantrum after the fact.   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 06:17 pm:    I am going back to stock everything, selling this shit, and buying a Jeep Liberty. HA   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 06:21 pm:    good riddance   eburrows Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 06:34 pm:    Anon: Shut up. Will: Gurus are a fickle bunch. More often than not, they point you in the right direction, but require you to put the last few pieces of the puzzle together yourself. It wouldn't really be all that helpfull in the long run if everyone gave everyone else the answers all the time. Look at it this way: Stick with the springs, maybe the lack of stuffing ability will keep your tires from comming up and taking a bite out of your passenger's butt. Loose the anti-sway bar, add a couple of spring retaining cones, and trade the shocks for some long-travel ones. You hardly ever learn from doing a 180 degree turn. Try 90. :-) IMHO, just my $0.02, and oh yeah, take with a dumptruck of salt.   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:12 pm:    What the hell am I bitchin about anyway, I never go off road so all I care about is looks anyway, and I got that licked!   Ron Ward (Ronward) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:29 pm:    William, Come on man! What kind of attitude is that? Keep the OME's (you buy HD's right?) and do some homework on extended length shocks. For what it's worth, my RTE 2" HD setup with 235 85's and stock replacement Bilstein shocks has not stopped me from going anywhere. Sure I lack the articulation of some rigs for now, but I'm not getting left on the trail. In fact, I'm usually coming out better since I have to work harder to drive the right line and place my tires more carefully than some folks want to. So, hit Perron's website for some interesting shock talk and get back to us on your choice for extended travel shocks. Ron Ward   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:32 pm:    What's the address?   Ron Ward (Ronward) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:40 pm:    Oh, sorry, I pick on Perrone so much I thought everyone knew his club website. It's www.spanishtrailrovers.com and go to "technical" section and scroll all the way down to his shock section. Pretty good information in there. William, just be sure you replace those front brake lines or else you'll turn them into check straps the first time you flex out. EE has some good extended stainless lines and I think JBS at rovertym can give you some insight to what he's done with extended lines as well. Good luck Ron Ward   Scott Hayes (Scott_H) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 09:16 pm:    William, Below the Green disco has OME HD and the rear swaybar removed. The white is stock. both are flexed till the tire is off the ground. Looks like the Green one has a bit more articulation. But the swaybars are removed..so if you take that into account it may be a push.   Scott Hayes (Scott_H) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 09:19 pm:    here is the stock one.   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 09:27 pm:    Scott, Long time no see. We missed you at Truckhaven last weekend when we went back for some beef/beer/wheeling/gun fun run. Here are the pics of the trip: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/truckhaven2/ The next time we go to Pismo Beach, I'll let you know. Perhaps you and Kristian can come down and join us there.   Scott Hayes (Scott_H) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 09:32 pm:    John Sorry I couldnt make it down, I spoke with Kristian and it sounds like it was a kick. I would love to check out Pismo when you all make a run. We need to get all you guys up North some time soon as well.   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 09:34 pm:    Agreed. It's unfair to make you guys drive down to the Los Angeles area. I was thinking Pismo would be perfect. Perhaps Rob Hamilton could join us too. That would be an awesome trip. No guns, but lots of BBQ and a great time.   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 11:46 pm:    Pictures are deceiving, but it looks the same to me. Looks also like blue's front tire isn't stuffed as much. What type of shocks are on bluerover?   Scott Hayes (Scott_H) Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 02:00 am:    It has OME on it, front and rear. the sway bar is not disconnected on the front, which could account for the difference in flex, and the line is a bit different. My point is, its pretty close.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 12:06 pm:    William, are basing all this on one trail run where you didn't make it up a hill you made it up before?!   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 06:23 pm:    It was only one run, yes. But I was having trouble as a number of spots, however, I made it through all except the one. That is why I used that example, because it was the most discouraging.   Moe (Moe) Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 11:25 pm:    LOL, give it some time, let those springs wear in, and in the meantime learn to find better lines   Anonymous Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 11:48 pm:    testing 123   Anonymous Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 11:49 pm:    Holy Crap, i just sat here and read every one of these responses, unbelievable. It's like a freakin' Disco soap or something. OK, who cares, my point is this. Dudeman or BJ,whatever, your not a hard core off roader, you said it yourself your going for looks, but you do do some off-roading. About the whole up-hill thing,maybe you need some lessons on diff.lock and which gear to choose, who knows. Get new springs, you need to get new shocks also(period) i have a 97 disco, was stock,now has Bilstein schocks on it with OME HD 751 front and MD 764 rear w/factory size BFG AT's. Perfect set-up for me, looks good and adds perfect height,about 1.5 inches. sits perfectly level, even with some rear weight and is perfect for mild offroading (mild as in no serious crazy stuff). The stock disco's do well, but i like the added springs and shocks, better ride and better performance. Either way, replace both the schocks and springs, not just one.   Ron Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 01:27 am:    Wait until the springs break in. Also check your tire pressure and ditch the rear sway bar. However, I have to agree with Scott the OME HD does not flex as well as stock. As far as the OME at twist off it did not have sway bars and was running LTRs with the SG drop kit. Based on the numbers my GUESS is that the stock 90 still had its sway bars on. BTW what tires did you get? Ron   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 09:26 am:    Ron, Did you miss the other thread? ../17/118.html"#444444">   Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 10:13 am:    Scorpions? I think you just uncovered your problem. At least they have a cool logo molded into the sidewall...   Redneck Posted on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 11:31 pm:    I've been driving 4X4's for awhile now. There are a dozen mods I want to do to my rover but I'm waiting to payoff the beast first. In the meantime, I have been punishing my DII. I have slopped it in the bayou's of Louisiana, jumped the stumps of North Carolina and climbed the steep, steep mining canyons of Arizona. Trust me when I say this William: A stock DII is extremely capable. Be patient, be wise with the line you choose and go SLOW, you'll be amazed how far you can go. Your OME's are OK. LOOSE THE FREAKING PIRELLI'S FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! THAT'S FREAKING SACRELIGIOUS!!!! Opinions vary . . . but let common sense prevail. Redneck   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 12:14 am:    I'll keep the Pirelli's till I rub them down, then I am going to stage some road hazard and replace them with BFG's or if I feel crazy some Yoko MT's, but probably BFG's. I need to keep the Disco on the road for a while, as I am in a college based financial slump, and can't afford to fix extra brake downs caused by off road!