The Kooks are Back

chris snell

chris snell

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Aug 15, 2005
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What makes you think this is going to the Supreme Court, Dan? The government cannot appeal this jury verdict. Bundy is not suing the government. What case is going to be tried?

This jury verdict was not an affirmation of adverse possession, nor was it a jury nullification. It was merely a statement that the federal government overzealously prosecuted these guys. There was no conspiracy. That doesn't mean that they were right or that what they did was legal. It only means that it was not conspiracy to impede.
 
D Chapman

D Chapman

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Jan 3, 2005
11,746
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On Kennith's private island
chris snell said:
What makes you think this is going to the Supreme Court, Dan? The government cannot appeal this jury verdict. Bundy is not suing the government. What case is going to be tried?

This jury verdict was not an affirmation of adverse possession, nor was it a jury nullification. It was merely a statement that the federal government overzealously prosecuted these guys. There was no conspiracy. That doesn't mean that they were right or that what they did was legal. It only means that it was not conspiracy to impede.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's the Bundy's who will get this case to the Supreme Court. You people are too focused on the Bundy's and not the problem the Bundy's face. There are other nation wide events happening that you do not see on CNN. Cattle ranching, and he Bundy's, are just a sliver of a great big pie. The issues run deep and it's complex.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AJU_KeNwJqk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>​

That's a long boring video but it goes into great detail. Here are the cliff-notes from Rand Paul.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qkAbnaK5pOc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>​
 
SGaynor

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
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Bristol, TN
chris snell said:
It was merely a statement that the federal government overzealously prosecuted these guys. There was no conspiracy. .
Click to expand...

And this is where I disagree - see above.

The jury's logic was that on the conspiracy count, there wasn't a written document plan, so therefore no conspiracy. That's a joke. Two people can plan a bank robbery, not write it down, but it's still a conspiracy.

How did all those people just decide at the same time to go take over the government land? Coincidence?

And the theft charges were found not guilty because the jury (particularly juror #11 it seems) bought the argument that since they "didn't intend" to keep the truck/cameras/property, it wasn't theft. Again, a ridiculous argument, IMO.
 
SGaynor

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
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52
Bristol, TN
D Chapman said:
I'm not saying it's the Bundy's who will get this case to the Supreme Court. You people are too focused on the Bundy's and not the problem the Bundy's face. There are other nation wide events happening that you do not see on CNN. Cattle ranching, and he Bundy's, are just a sliver of a great big pie. The issues run deep and it's complex.

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AJU_KeNwJqk" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>​

That's a long boring video but it goes into great detail. Here are the cliff-notes from Rand Paul.

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qkAbnaK5pOc" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>​
Click to expand...

And these legal views (and conspiracies) have been widely debunked, found to be false - see the NPR or any other legal review written by someone other than the extreme right.

These guys arguments are the same as those that throw out a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo and claim that the feds can't collect income taxes, and that people are perfectly legal to not pay them. Until the feds come knocking, and they go to jail.
 
chris snell

chris snell

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 15, 2005
3,020
152
The jury wasn't allowed to infer that there was a conspiracy, they had to judge based on evidence. The prosecution claimed that the conspiring happened at the Tavern in Burns but didn't present any witnesses or evidence to support that.
 
seventyfive

seventyfive

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2010
4,280
100
over there
Well, you're either a statist, an anarchist, or a level headed moderate team player, and with the polarization we're seeing the past 20ish years nobody wants to straddle the division line.

if a republic falls, true democracy with little to no moderation or regulations, results in anarchy. maybe that's why libertarians are very very staunch firearm enthusiasts?
 
emmodg

emmodg

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2006
4,273
1
To all who believe the US Government is the main and absolute cause of a deteriorating sense of liberty and freedom, be very careful for that which you wish for and it's subsequent alternatives. There's a very fine line between nu-adulterated democracy and anarchy. You'll need more than the 2nd Ammend. to protect you from every Tom, Dick, and Harry's individual idea of "personal right" and liberty.
 
1920SF

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
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NoVA
emmodg said:
To all who believe the US Government is the main and absolute cause of a deteriorating sense of liberty and freedom, be very careful for that which you wish for and it's subsequent alternatives. There's a very fine line between nu-adulterated democracy and anarchy. You'll need more than the 2nd Ammend. to protect you from every Tom, Dick, and Harry's individual idea of "personal right" and liberty.
Click to expand...

Been having some fascinating discussions in class sessions both in the DC area and NYC with regard to the erosion of confidence in institutions both in the US and globally along with how many of the trend lines now mimic the direction things were going before WWI; i.e. self absorption and the failure for many who have never had to really sacrifice to appreciate how bad things can be. Sadly as humans I think it is inevitable that we will have to experience how bad things can be again as a reminder-that is agnostic of party and I'd apply it both inside the US and to the world as a whole.

A bit of a drift off the subject, but only just so.
 
seventyfive

seventyfive

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2010
4,280
100
over there
1920SF said:
Been having some fascinating discussions in class sessions both in the DC area and NYC with regard to the erosion of confidence in institutions both in the US and globally along with how many of the trend lines now mimic the direction things were going before WWI; i.e. self absorption and the failure for many who have never had to really sacrifice to appreciate how bad things can be. Sadly as humans I think it is inevitable that we will have to experience how bad things can be again as a reminder-that is agnostic of party and I'd apply it both inside the US and to the world as a whole.

A bit of a drift off the subject, but only just so.
Click to expand...


literally, just spoke with a customer regarding real life experiences. i used camden, as an example of failed rule of law resulting in extreme 'democracy', which he replied 'i was born in camden!' he moved to cherry hill and eventually found his way down here...hes's almost 70. his uncle was a mayor of camden at one time.

ray, personally i think as much as it would put some moderate thinking people back on track there are a lot of people that would shit the bed and surrender to any new 'profit'. i believe the best way to teach a kid, about credit card debt, is to get them a $500 card then let them max it out...after they realize what they did you hope they learned their lesson. HOPE they learned their lesson.

to let our country devolve into towns like camden would be dangerous. the one constant with humans is the inability, as a collective whole, to truly learn from our mistakes. we find the flaw and try to circumvent...which leads to more and more complex mistakes.
 
1920SF

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
seventyfive said:
literally, just spoke with a customer regarding real life experiences. i used camden, as an example of failed rule of law resulting in extreme 'democracy', which he replied 'i was born in camden!' he moved to cherry hill and eventually found his way down here...hes's almost 70. his uncle was a mayor of camden at one time.

ray, personally i think as much as it would put some moderate thinking people back on track there are a lot of people that would shit the bed and surrender to any new 'profit'. i believe the best way to teach a kid, about credit card debt, is to get them a $500 card then let them max it out...after they realize what they did you hope they learned their lesson. HOPE they learned their lesson.

to let our country devolve into towns like camden would be dangerous. the one constant with humans is the inability, as a collective whole, to truly learn from our mistakes. we find the flaw and try to circumvent...which leads to more and more complex mistakes.
Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly concur with the idea that humans have the latent inability to learn from their mistakes until they've exhausted every alternative to sidestep that learning & mistake.

The commentary about state (and local) politics being more of a driver for issues vice national is something really to explore-I think we're creating a tyranny through local democracy quite often; I mean how many people find their HOA to be an intrusive pain in the ass (but its about property values!, and democracy). The best part of this article, where it points out for every law Congress passes State legislatures pass 75...75 laws about what?: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/all-politics-is-national/?ex_cid=2016-forecast
 
SGaynor

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
emmodg said:
To all who believe the US Government is the main and absolute cause of a deteriorating sense of liberty and freedom, be very careful for that which you wish for and it's subsequent alternatives. There's a very fine line between nu-adulterated democracy and anarchy. You'll need more than the 2nd Ammend. to protect you from every Tom, Dick, and Harry's individual idea of "personal right" and liberty.
Click to expand...

Don't worry. These guys are on it.

Oath Keepers.

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-uKenaXncIs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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