The Kooks are Back
- Thread starter SGaynor
- Start date
let the Feds get a little nervous.
I'm all for civil disobedience as long as people don't get hurt unnecessarily.
but, maybe breaking into a Federal building was a poor decision...much more threatening than just letting your cattle graze on federal land.
However, it does remind me a little bit of this:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/XZywsT8Sy-c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I'm all for civil disobedience as long as people don't get hurt unnecessarily.
but, maybe breaking into a Federal building was a poor decision...much more threatening than just letting your cattle graze on federal land.
However, it does remind me a little bit of this:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/XZywsT8Sy-c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I read something today that said they set two fires. One was suspected to cover up illegal deer hunting, that's the one that they claimed was to keep an invasive species of plant out. The second one was to keep a fire caused by lightning from spreading to his ranch. But either way,nobody was hurt and 5 years is stupid.
Did they break into the building? I never saw anything that would make me think they broke into anything.
Did they break into the building? I never saw anything that would make me think they broke into anything.
Oh come on. Give us something other than a limp/lame response. Tell us what you think. Are they justified or are they terrorists.
I am not a fan of any organized religion, especially the kind that the Bundy's represent. Because of this, I am a bit biased when considering their militia.
http://www.opb.org/news/article/explainer-the-bundy-militias-particular-brand-of-mormonism/
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/04/3735830/bundy-mormonism/
So, what do you think? Their cause for originally taking stand was the sentencing of the hammonds. Now the hammonds are going to serve their time and are disassociating with the bundy's. So now it is on precidence. They want the hammonds free and they want the wild life preserve back. The battle for fed lands has been going on for over 40 years and they use the hammonds as a way to unite a militia.
And they are fundamentalist/extremist mormons that the LDS church and Mormons want nothing to do with.
I have not made up my mind completely, but I am presently thinking that the locals in OR want them gone and that they are unlikely to keep on going unless the FBI just lets them be.
1. History tends to repeat itself....
2. The Roman Empire was gradually eroded by abuses of power, civil wars, barbarian migrations and invasions, military reforms and economic depression.
3. The Roman Empire lacked a centralized religion...much in the direction that the U.S is headed...
4. Big government sucks...different areas of the country function very differently. The people in different areas think very differently....we need serious FEDERAL GOVERMNENT reform....and we needed it 10 years ago....
2. The Roman Empire was gradually eroded by abuses of power, civil wars, barbarian migrations and invasions, military reforms and economic depression.
3. The Roman Empire lacked a centralized religion...much in the direction that the U.S is headed...
4. Big government sucks...different areas of the country function very differently. The people in different areas think very differently....we need serious FEDERAL GOVERMNENT reform....and we needed it 10 years ago....
I would be more inclined to put that at 15 years... or more
If you are trying to say that a centralized religion will help good luck with that.
There are likely somethings to be learned from history for sure, but I am not sure that you can easily correlate issues with the Roman empire to America... I am no historian though and certainly know nearly nil about Romans, other than I like to look at their art.
Rabbi Palinsky's Blog is interesting, breif read.
The Decline and Fall of the American Empire
If you are trying to say that a centralized religion will help good luck with that.
There are likely somethings to be learned from history for sure, but I am not sure that you can easily correlate issues with the Roman empire to America... I am no historian though and certainly know nearly nil about Romans, other than I like to look at their art.
Rabbi Palinsky's Blog is interesting, breif read.
The Decline and Fall of the American Empire
In order for groups of very different cultural backgrounds to effectively co-exist, there needs to be 1 of 2 things in place. A. A centralized religion. (which unites the varying groups.) B. An overpowering government. (which forces the varying groups to unite.)
Lot of armed Christians out there and nobody been shot. Nobody broke in and looted the place. Have they broken any laws yet? I don't know enough about whats happening to say for sure, but I don't think so. As I see it there are two issues brewing out there. First is the land use and control of federal lands by the gov. instead of the people. Second is mandatory prison time for an offense that had to be called arson, that had to carry a 5 year sentence. Those two ranchers are going to have to distance themselves from the stand off because they still need to negotiate for freedom.
I fail to see what is limp or lame about seeking alternatives veiws on a volatile situation.
We are not battling government anymore, we are battling bureaucracy. The feds want their land. The already served their time, the feds came and said not enough.
Are you saying that these Mormons are crazier than regular Mormons?
Here's an alternative view of what's happening. As always, the truth lies somewhere in between. And fuck religion, it will destroy the world.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com...uge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
We are not battling government anymore, we are battling bureaucracy. The feds want their land. The already served their time, the feds came and said not enough.
Are you saying that these Mormons are crazier than regular Mormons?
Here's an alternative view of what's happening. As always, the truth lies somewhere in between. And fuck religion, it will destroy the world.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com...uge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
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This is about people wanting something for nothing. Namely, the ability to graze cattle on land they don't own, at no, or very low cost.
That's what Bundy was bitching about, that's what The Hammonds are bitching about. Instead of paying their grazing fees and trying to get things changed, Bundy said fuck you and just grazed. The Hammonds hunted illegally on federal land, then started a fire. They also started a fire and it damaged federal land and put firefighters in jeporady. Intentionally setting a fire and causing damage to someone elses property is arson. Plan and simple. There's a mandatory minimum for arson? Then don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
[I know I guy who joined a company as CFO started by two of his college friends. Turns out that they were running a ponzi scheme. He quit after 4 months and figuring out the books were cooked. But since he didn't turn them in, and lied about knowing about it in his first FBI interview (he later cooperated), he is doing 5 years in a Fed prison. He never made a dime off people getting schemed. His friends? One did 2 years, other 10+. Is that fair? No. But that's the law]
Everything else - state's rights, how the land is managed and by whom, the length of the sentence, etc. is just bullshit smokescreen.
This whole thing about the "people" controlling the land is more bullshit. The "people" do control it - in the form of the federal government which manages the BLM and other lands. What "people" should be deciding who/what uses it? The Bundys? That's what they'd have you believe. That they know what's best. Yeah, best for them.
Ranchers grazing lands for free, and then bitching when they are forced to pay for use of that land (either for grazing or transporting the cattle) has been around since the implementation of barbed wire. The vast majority of ranchers pay their fees and go about their business.
If you don't like it, get the law changed. But you can't just decide which laws you will and will not abide by. That's anarchy.
Look at off-road trails in the east. We bitch about them being closed, but we don't get guns and go 4-wheeling and tell the police we'll shoot them if they force us to leave. We don't say that the Fed government (or state) has no right to tell us not to off-road. We accept that and move on. These guys don't.
The lack of consequences for Bundy in Nevada just emboldened these yahoos. The feds caved, and now they think they can do what they want.
As for "did they break in" - It was a closed visitors center. You want me to believe that they just left it unlocked? The refuge has hours where people can/can't be there. If they are there when they aren't supposed to be - that's trespassing.
"We don't want a fight, but we'll shoot you if you try to remove us." These guys want to have another Waco or Ruby Ridge. They want to die saying they fought the tyrannical government. If there was a guy (or group) waving around guns in the center of your town, saying they'd shoot anyone who told them to leave, you'd be cool with that?
That's what Bundy was bitching about, that's what The Hammonds are bitching about. Instead of paying their grazing fees and trying to get things changed, Bundy said fuck you and just grazed. The Hammonds hunted illegally on federal land, then started a fire. They also started a fire and it damaged federal land and put firefighters in jeporady. Intentionally setting a fire and causing damage to someone elses property is arson. Plan and simple. There's a mandatory minimum for arson? Then don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
[I know I guy who joined a company as CFO started by two of his college friends. Turns out that they were running a ponzi scheme. He quit after 4 months and figuring out the books were cooked. But since he didn't turn them in, and lied about knowing about it in his first FBI interview (he later cooperated), he is doing 5 years in a Fed prison. He never made a dime off people getting schemed. His friends? One did 2 years, other 10+. Is that fair? No. But that's the law]
Everything else - state's rights, how the land is managed and by whom, the length of the sentence, etc. is just bullshit smokescreen.
This whole thing about the "people" controlling the land is more bullshit. The "people" do control it - in the form of the federal government which manages the BLM and other lands. What "people" should be deciding who/what uses it? The Bundys? That's what they'd have you believe. That they know what's best. Yeah, best for them.
Ranchers grazing lands for free, and then bitching when they are forced to pay for use of that land (either for grazing or transporting the cattle) has been around since the implementation of barbed wire. The vast majority of ranchers pay their fees and go about their business.
If you don't like it, get the law changed. But you can't just decide which laws you will and will not abide by. That's anarchy.
Look at off-road trails in the east. We bitch about them being closed, but we don't get guns and go 4-wheeling and tell the police we'll shoot them if they force us to leave. We don't say that the Fed government (or state) has no right to tell us not to off-road. We accept that and move on. These guys don't.
The lack of consequences for Bundy in Nevada just emboldened these yahoos. The feds caved, and now they think they can do what they want.
As for "did they break in" - It was a closed visitors center. You want me to believe that they just left it unlocked? The refuge has hours where people can/can't be there. If they are there when they aren't supposed to be - that's trespassing.
"We don't want a fight, but we'll shoot you if you try to remove us." These guys want to have another Waco or Ruby Ridge. They want to die saying they fought the tyrannical government. If there was a guy (or group) waving around guns in the center of your town, saying they'd shoot anyone who told them to leave, you'd be cool with that?
You comment was just limp, since you implied there was better info out there... and then gave non. Just razzing you.
Yes, these are extremist Mormons, I gave some informative links. The LDS church as denounced them and I do not think regular Mormons are crazy, BTW.
I do agree with you about the between comment. I think that the Fed were justified in the re-sentence. First sentence was illegal, I think and it is not double jeopardy... from my neophyte perspective that is.
This. Also, Ammon Bundy is a hypocrite, among other things. In 2012 he applied for and received a $538,000 federal loan for his business (trucking, I believe?), a loan that existed for those unable to receive private funding. The article I read, as long as their information is reliable, states that there is no record of him paying this loan off. So here's a guy raging about government involvement in personal affairs, but is totally fine with free money from the government. Like that time Rick Perry put the Texas National Guard on alert because he was afraid that the US military was coming to Texas to take guns from the citizens of his state, then begged for federal disaster aid to help with the flooding two weeks later.
The Hammonds at their sentencing argued that the 5 years was too harsh, and the judge agreed and gave them months (how many judges have given less than manditory minimum sentences for minor drug offenders?). The prosecution appealed and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (a very liberal group) agreed and ordered the 5 years.
It's not double jeopardy - the were convicted, but their sentence was changed.
Nothing says revolution like seizing the gift shop.atriot:
LOL, I doubt that they are trying to make any points about the building itself.