2003 D2 - Bosch to Gems -who has dunnit?

[RRCNicky]

...picked up a 2003 D2 with a blown engine, got it dirt cheap and was gonna part it but considering throwing an engine back in it instead and getting it back on the road. Putting the Bosch with secondary air in it is not in the budget, but I know some folks have tossed Gem engines in these and I'm looking for anyone who has done it and what I should be looking out for....Thanks for any insight.

 

[p m]

Illegal on federal level, and 03 will have electronically-controlled transmission that GEMS ECU wouldn't know anything about.
Good luck with that.

EDIT:

but I know some folks have tossed Gem engines in these

and this is priceless.

 

[RRCNicky]

Illegal on federal level, and 03 will have electronically-controlled transmission that GEMS ECU wouldn't know anything about.
Good luck with that.

EDIT:

and this is priceless.

It may be priceless - it's also true. Spoke with PT this morning before I posted this and he knows people who have made the conversion. I expected there would be electronic issues, but as it's been done, looking for ways to work around it. As for swapping engines being illegal - on what basis?

 

[p m]

You can't swap in an engine older than the vehicle, that's it.

 

[Mongo]

obd2 compliance...it's technically illegal to put a older engine in...as for the swap, if your gonna waste your time puttin a old under powered motor in, why not swap the trans too, then you'll only have 2/3 the work to do to get a working speedo, ac, abs...blah, blah, blah

 

[ptschram]

First off, the regulatory issue is not valid as the engine is fundamentally similar and the EMS will be retained.

For the naysayers, the only difference is the CkPS mount.

I spoke with a gentleman a week or so ago who used a hole saw and JB weld to mount a CkPS on a 3.9!!! From the pics he sent me, the guy's a Hell of a machinist.

Y'all missed the forest for the tress in your zeal to beat this idea down without even thinking about it LOL!!!

 

[RRCNicky]

Fair enough - hadn't been aware of the legal issues regarding dropping an older engine in, good info, thanks for that...now parting silver 2003 D2! hahaha

OOOOPPPSS - hold the phone! back in the game....

 

[p m]

but I know some folks have tossed Gem engines in these

I mentioned that as priceless because...
Out of probably hundred or so Rover owners I can think of knowing personally, 10 or 15 are D2 owners. Out of those, 3 or 4 are 03/04 D2 owners... All but one of those 03/04 owners replaced or rebuilt their engines. Out of those, none have used GEMS engine in lieu of Bosch engine.

To say "I know some folks (plural) have tossed (meaning it was drop-in easy) Gem (GEMS) engines in these" means you really rounded up the Land Rover crowd.

 

[robertf]

I was thinking the same thing PM

I've done the opposite, but I retained the GEMS intake/accessories/ems. Just modified the block to work with the old crank shaft position sensor.

PT. Its valid, its just not enforced and hard to detect.

 

[RRCNicky]

...you inferred too much - I didn't assume it was common or easy. Just knew it had been done...This post is a feeler to see if its worth the investment and time or not...

 

[DarylJ]

You can't swap in an engine older than the vehicle, that's it.

He's in Florida. No one cares.

That doesn't make it legal, but he's not going to have any problems in that respect.

What it really comes down to is that I have a hard time believing he can get his hands on a gems motor that much cheaper than a Bosch to make up for all of the hassle that will be involved. Especially considering the only sane way to do this would seem to be with a matching trans as well (and ecu....and figuring out how to make the BCU still operate appropriately). Even if he goes with a 4l Bosch for cost it's going to be a whole lot better swap in the end.

 

[JohnB]

What federal law is on the books that states you can't put a 98 motor is a 99? Or is this typical internet BS.

I can't speak for the OP but I doubt he wants to retrofit gems injection. I think he just wants to use the gems block. Which is the same block. The only thing needing modification is the the Crank position sensor. which is just a plate welded to the block. You can for sure adapt the bosch plate to the gems block.

 

[p m]

Block you can swap all right. And a good GEMS 4.0 or P38A 4.6 block is what I would be looking for if I had a D2 with a blown engine.

 

[Mongo]

for your reading enjoyment:
cut and pasted from this document:
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf


For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty eng~ne into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle manufacturer.

The most common engine replacement involves replacing a gasoline engine in a light-duty vehicle with another gasoline engine. Another type of engine switching which commonly occurs, however, involves diesel powered vehicles where the diesel engine is removed and replaced with a gasoline engine. Applying the above policy, such a replacement is legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configuration is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis. If the vehicle chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a conversion could be done legally.
It should be noted that while EPA's policy allows engine switches as long as the resulting vehicle matches exactly to anv certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the chassis, there are some substantial practical limitations to performing such a replacement. Vehicle chassis and engine designs of one vehicle manufacturer are very distinct from those of another, such that it is generally not possible to put an engine into a chassis of a different manufacturer and have it match up to a certified
configuration. Therefore, practical considerations will generally limit engine switches to installation of another engine which was certified to be used in that same make and model (or a "twin" of that make and model, e.g., Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Calais). In addition, converting a vehicle into a different certified configuration is likely to be very difficult, and the cost may prove prohibitive.

 

[KyleT]

jees.

just get a gems block, put the SAI heads on it, or just get a non SAI ECM and bolt the bosch intake to it...
or just get a bosh motor for the same price..
its not that complicated...

 

[seventyfive]

what kyle said. i have a gems bottom end in my d2, we just put a gems bottom end in an '03. my only suggestion is KEEP the sai and ecu in your truck!!!!!! finding a 460 ecu from an '03/'04 is like finding someone on dweb without a smart ass comment. unless you 'know' someone at a dealer to sell you a non-lev ecu for an lev vin and keying it, you will have a truck that runs great but the cel will never go out.

 

[RRCNicky]

Thanks for the help and comments - both pro and con everyone....lotta good stuff here!

 

[ptschram]

Y'all are making this WAY too hard.

Bust the CkPS mounting plate off, insert the correct one, either JB weld , TIG, Aluminium solder, bubble gum, bailing wire, etc the new one in place, motor on!

Any Rover v8 where one retained the EMS from the original vehicle would be compliant with any applicable regs as the emissions would be identical.

I cannot believe that I'm not the pedantic asshole in this thread!

 

[Mongo]

just busting stones PT...

 

[ptschram]

just busting stones PT...

I was most surprised of you of all people making the comments you made!:rofl:

It's all good!