747 in Bagram

1920SF

1920SF

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I heard the same. Poignant illustration for why a loadmaster has a damn important job.
 
AMCM Disco

AMCM Disco

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Looks eerily like the C-2 COD that had the CG shift on the Cat Launch off the boat... even after the stall she didn't weather-vane nose down as much as she should've.

The COD vid is used in ORM training left and right in the Navy.
 
R

RBBailey

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Yeah, looks like a cargo shift except.... the nose comes down in the end -- once the stall occurs, the heavy parts go down first. If a cargo shifted too far to the rear to cause an uncontrolled climb, then the nose never would have come down after the full stall.

I think the pilot was doing a performance take-off and got into that region of aerodynamics where the forward motion is still registered, but the critical AOA has already been exceeded. Full stall ensues (the video looks exactly like what happens when you do an uncoordinated stall in a Cessna 150) and no recovery is possible at that altitude.
 
mgreenspan

mgreenspan

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RBBailey said:
Yeah, looks like a cargo shift except.... the nose comes down in the end -- once the stall occurs, the heavy parts go down first. If a cargo shifted too far to the rear to cause an uncontrolled climb, then the nose never would have come down after the full stall.

I think the pilot was doing a performance take-off and got into that region of aerodynamics where the forward motion is still registered, but the critical AOA has already been exceeded. Full stall ensues (the video looks exactly like what happens when you do an uncoordinated stall in a Cessna 150) and no recovery is possible at that altitude.
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You are clearly the expert on this and know 100% what you are talking about. :rofl:
 
mgreenspan

mgreenspan

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Here's a witness quote.

somebody that witnessed it said:
I witnessed this crash today and there was no Taliban involvement. I can tell you this for sure – the 747 took off and commenced a quite steep climb out, not unusual for here, then one of two things happened. In my opinion either the strong head wind or a micro up burst caused it to pitch upward at what looked to be at least 85deg. Nose up or the cargo shifted to the rear and caused it to nose up. It then did what all swept wing aircraft do in a stall and pitched left at about 1200 Ft AGL, then it seemed like the pilot tried to correct and it pitched right and headed for the ground just before impact. It looked like it had flattened out to nearly level but had very little or no forward speed – what followed was the ground shook, followed by a large ball of fire and a huge black cloud of smoke. I truly wish I had not seen this, but I did, and my prayers and thoughts go out to all involved – both on board and the family and loved ones of the crew and passengers.
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And here's some more on the incident and info on other similar ones.
from another rando said:
The cargo flight N8-102 crew were heard on VHF air-band frequency reporting that some of the load of five heavy military vehicles weighing more than 70 tons in the cargo hold had shifted and the 20 year old National Air Cargo Boeing 747-400 stalled. National Air Cargo Boeing 747-400 crashed and erupted into flames on impact. The crash site was near the end of the only runway (11,849 ft long runway 03) within the perimeter of the Bagram airfield. All seven crew – Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI; Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI; Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI; Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI; Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI; Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI; Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY were killed on impact.
There are many things that could have happened to cause the high nose pitch. Cargo shift is a high probability. Center of gravity on an aircraft is very important, especially on cargo planes. From the video it seems that the cargo load got loose and shifted back and caused the rapid nose high pitch. It´s a very deep stall because the aircraft seem to be almost vertical in the rolling.There are many things that could go wrong. If it was palletized, a lock could have failed. A chain holding the vehicle might of been weak and broke. Or a tiedown could have failed.
The loadmaster performs the calculations and plans cargo placement to keep the aircraft within permissible center of gravity limits throughout the flight. Loadmasters ensure cargo is placed on the aircraft in such a way as to prevent overloading sensitive sections of the airframe and cargo floor.
The loadmaster primarily supervises loading crews and procedures. Once positioned aboard the aircraft, the loadmaster ensures the cargo is secured against movement. Chains, straps, and integrated cargo locks are among the most common tools used to secure the cargo. Because cargo may shift during abrupt maneuvers, the loadmaster must determine the appropriate amount and placement of cargo restraint.
Similarly August 11, 1997, a Fine Air DC-8 aircraft loaded with 45 tons of fabric, departed Miami International airport, just moments into its flight the DC-8 came tumbling down killing 5 people. The DC-8 upon takeoff became tail heavy, stalled and then crashed in a shopping area just several hundred feet from the runway. Investigators have recovered several cargo latches from the DC-8 and it has been reported that only one of the latches was in the locked position , indicating that the cargo on the DC-8 upon takeoff had shifted to the tail off the aircraft making it tail heavy producing an uncontrolled sharp nose up in the rolling.
During the takeoff roll from runway 25R at Frankfurt on October 11, 1983, Flying Tigers 747-200 had the similar load shift. The pallet/load of pipes used for nuclear power plant cooling systems shifted . The incident damaged the pressure dome/bulkhead, aft fuselage and the tails sections of the 747-200
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From what I've read so far there were very high winds causing lots of issues in the area. That could also have been a factor.

I think this is the COD video AMCM Disco is talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OlDmMwI9cik
 
R

RBBailey

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mgreenspan said:
You are clearly the expert on this and know 100% what you are talking about. :rofl:
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I'm a flight instructor.


From your quote from someone who saw it happen, and 100% knows what they are talking about, "It then did what all swept wing aircraft do in a stall and pitched left"....

...sigh...

Any airplane will do what that 747 did in a full stall. At any airspeed. At any angle or altitude from the ground. It does not matter if it is swept wing or not. Unless there was some other error with engine management going on, producing asymmetric thrust, or a severe cross-wind (20-25 knotts is max) then the only explanation for a ROLL to the right, then ROLL to the left before a nose down attitude on impact would be a full stall at low airspeed with an uncoordinated entry causing one wing to enter an eminent stall, the pilot reacts to recover just before the airfoil has lost complete control, causing the other wing to stall more completely.

Aircraft do not PITCH left... or right.

This looked like a typical departure stall, with typical results -- what caused the initial high pitch could be any number of things. The load coming loose is most likely in this scenario, pilot error, or even atmospheric conditions (though not as likely in a fully loaded 747). I was surmising that if the cargo had come loose and was heavy enough to throw the CG far enough aft on a fully loaded 747 to cause an uncontrollable climb, then it would be enough to cause the plane to come down flat, or even in a tail down configuration after having just stalled at a relatively low airspeed.

The video suggested to me that the pilot actually righted the wings after the ROLL to the right, and even got the nose down for stall recovery (just as he was supposed to do) but that there was not enough altitude to recover in the end. I am unsure how he could do that if the CG were so far out of limits as to cause the uncontrollable climb in the first place.

Anyway, that's what was going through my head when I saw the video. As an instructor, I was always afraid of seeing this happen with newer student pilots. This being the most common type of inadvertent stall to make. So maybe I'm just sensitive to the visual aspects of what is seen in the video.

Of course, you are the one with access to internet quotes from eye witness accounts, and since you have the black boxes at your disposal, you can come to your own conclusions. But I'm unsure as to why an alternative explanation should be laughed at. I would hope the FAA investigators would look into all possible scenarios, not just read internet speculation to come to their conclusions.
 
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mgreenspan

mgreenspan

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RBBailey said:
I'm a flight instructor.


From your quote from someone who saw it happen, and 100% knows what they are talking about, "It then did what all swept wing aircraft do in a stall and pitched left"....

...sigh...

Any airplane will do what that 747 did in a full stall. At any airspeed. At any angle or altitude from the ground. It does not matter if it is swept wing or not. Unless there was some other error with engine management going on, producing asymmetric thrust, or a severe cross-wind (20-25 knotts is max) then the only explanation for a ROLL to the right, then ROLL to the left before a nose down attitude on impact would be a full stall at low airspeed with an uncoordinated entry causing one wing to enter an eminent stall, the pilot reacts to recover just before the airfoil has lost complete control, causing the other wing to stall more completely.

Aircraft do not PITCH left... or right.

This looked like a typical departure stall, with typical results -- what caused the initial high pitch could be any number of things. The load coming loose is most likely in this scenario, pilot error, or even atmospheric conditions (though not as likely in a fully loaded 747). I was surmising that if the cargo had come loose and was heavy enough to throw the CG far enough aft on a fully loaded 747 to cause an uncontrollable climb, then it would be enough to cause the plane to come down flat, or even in a tail down configuration after having just stalled at a relatively low airspeed.

The video suggested to me that the pilot actually righted the wings after the ROLL to the right, and even got the nose down for stall recovery (just as he was supposed to do) but that there was not enough altitude to recover in the end. I am unsure how he could do that if the CG were so far out of limits as to cause the uncontrollable climb in the first place.

Anyway, that's what was going through my head when I saw the video. As an instructor, I was always afraid of seeing this happen with newer student pilots. This being the most common type of inadvertent stall to make. So maybe I'm just sensitive to the visual aspects of what is seen in the video.

Of course, you are the one with access to internet quotes from eye witness accounts, and since you have the black boxes at your disposal, you can come to your own conclusions. But I'm unsure as to why an alternative explanation should be laughed at. I would hope the FAA investigators would look into all possible scenarios, not just read internet speculation to come to their conclusions.
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CG in this case is not stuck aft. It shifted aft. I am also a flight instructor and have flown large four engine aircraft. I guess I should have changed someone else's quote to use the correct terminology. The quotes were for additional information. Yes the first is completely speculative from some rando. You flat out said it wasn't a CG issue when they made the call over the radio saying that happened. What the quotes I posted say are not what I am saying. You just have it in your head that it can't be a CG problem. I'm not trying to be a dick but obviously have come off as one. I don't think you know what you're talking about with regards to cargo in this situation, though.
 
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