best stock engine

[p m]

Kennith,

yes, an old Toy pickup and Peugeot 504s (that's one of the ugliest cars ever built) are very common in Africa. But, that doesn't say much about anything - in "developing countries," few people have time and money to go to the boonies just for sheer entertainment. Few of them can afford diesel engines in their vehicles, too.

the title of the thread is somewhat misleading - best for what? I assumed the best being the most reliable, least maintenance, and easy repairable away from the shop. In this sense, 22R is the second only to 4-cylinder diesels (Benz, Isuzu, Peugeot, etc.).
If Peter-man99's question about what's good to lay rubber, a Big3 big block is hard to beat.

 

[kennith]

PM,

I think it was just a pretty well-rounded question. What stock engine is best for off road use? I thought he might be looking for an all-rounder. To do any real American mudding or rock crawling, displacement helps. But that's just my opinion. Aside from those conditions and soft sand, you can really get away with most anything. I just think the Rover V8 is "best".

In my last post, referring to people, I was talking about the hired transpotration, or plain cloths Matatus, reallly. They live out in the boondocks and help locals by retrieving their water. Out there a whole village might have one car, or none, and use one from an adjacent village. Not really any entertainment there.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[p m]

In my observations, most reliable rock crawlers use 4-bangers with low gears. Mud is a completely different story.

 

[kennith]

PM,

The rock crawling field is devided about equally on that. Those with low enough motor space go with the V8, those with no space opt for a 4. I doubt anyone will disagree that it's better to have a motor that developes most of it's torque down low in it's rev range, and with a broad, progressive power band off road. Since we are talking stock here, that puts a 4 banger right out. I think you will find that most of the reliable stock 4 cylinder engines in the rock crawling circuits have another four right beside them and across a valley.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[utahdog2003]

I would disagree. give me a dependable 22R anyday.

big displacement = driveline failure IMHO

 

[p m]

Kennith,

out of the rock crawlers I've met, two most amazing drove - one an 89 Wrangler with a 2.5-liter 4, and another - 4-banger Ford Ranger (with IFS!). If you have ~6:1 first gear ratio, 2.7:1 in the t-case, and 4.3:1 in the axles, you couldn't care less about low end torque. A 4-banger makes enough to use the rims as winch drums going straight up.

 

[kennith]

On a V8 snapping driveline bits:

That's really only the case if the engine produces an obscene amount of HP. For the purposes of this argument, assume that V8 is producing 160 Hp at 3000 revs, and about 200 ft lbs at 2700. Not enough to snap anything off, but low enough rpms to keep the internals together. Look at that next to a low geared 4 cyl screaming it's ass off, and you'll see my point.

On your next post:

You'd be suprised how many vehicles could winch themselves that way with just a standard Disco II transfer box installed.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[utahdog2003]

On a V8 snapping driveline bits:

That's really only the case if the engine produces an obscene amount of HP. For the purposes of this argument, assume that V8 is producing 160 Hp at 3000 revs, and about 200 ft lbs at 2700.

what the hell kind of V8 crawler is that?!? even in its most anemic form the LR-8 in the states made what, 180 or so? I don't think the rover8 las been that feeble since it wore Triumph valve covers. And weren't we talking 350s and Windsors a minute ago? Dont most NC wheelers have hotter cams than that lying in the mud under their trailers? Hell ANY 8cyl motor tuned to make just 160hp would last eons. Lets be more realistic and consider 200 as the average output for a V8...even a rover8. Now your talking DiscoII power, and the week point in a DiscoII is shafts and joints. POP!

Pitching the strengths of a V8 and then basing your arguement on hp figures more commonly seen on 4cyl just proves my point. Thanks.

 

[utahdog2003]

My vote would be a Rover V8. I know you guys bitch about them, but I've seen enough to be impressed. The older models with the dual Stromberg carb setup are pretty stout, and the electrics are sealed pretty good with factory componants. Most will complain about the little things, but they forget the big things that you rarely have to worry about with this engine. HP and Torque figures are perfect for off roading, without stressing any castings, and with proper looking after (even without, sometimes) they refuse to overheat without a blown gasket. Despite popular belief, they are not prone to warping anywhere, and that porous block thing was bogus. Basically, you have the power of a six coming from an eight, which is always a good thing in the bush.

Cheers,

Kennith

ah yes...now I see where you're going with this.

 

[p m]

On a V8 snapping driveline bits:
That's really only the case if the engine produces an obscene amount of HP. For the purposes of this argument, assume that V8 is producing 160 Hp at 3000 revs, and about 200 ft lbs at 2700. Not enough to snap anything off, but low enough rpms to keep the internals together. Look at that next to a low geared 4 cyl screaming it's ass off, and you'll see my point.

Is that right? Here's your maximum torque:
200lb-ft * 2.5(1st gear ratio in an auto box) * 2.25 (TC torque multiplication) * 3.27 (T-case ratio) * 3.54 (axle ratio) = 13k lb-ft. Granted, normally, this torque is evenly distributed between the 4 axleshafts, but with two axle lockers and locked CDL, the possibility becomes real. What do you think the stock LR axleshaft will take?

Speaking of screaming the ass off, I've driven a 712 Pinz with a 2.5 liter 4-banger, and off road it barely went off idle. With super-low gearing the Pinzes have, I didn't even have to use the clutch for anything but shifting gears.

 

[kennith]

Utahdog,

Yeah, I'm not speaking about computer driven engines here.

PM,

I know the performance figures for my engine. I also know that the weak parts are in the driveline. Thats where I'd rather them be. I also don't see your point because no matter how low you gear the damn truck, you still run the risk of twisting something off. Thats a factor of the forces exerted directly on the wheels (unless you have portal axles, and who around here is going in that direction, let's be realistic).

This is why people joke on LR drivers all the time. The back country mythology involving little 1.nothing litre lawnmower engines powering locomotives dosn't wash anymore. I'll say the same thing about carrying ten tons of gear just to hit the local mud hole, it dosen't make you look hard core, it makes you look like an idiot.

Those small engines were put in certain vehicles for quite a few different reasons. None of those reasons, however, involved them being the best possible engine for wheeling. Otherwise, LR might actually give a damn about us wheelers in USA. Unfortunately, The ones we do have are too concerned about moving backwards in technology because that's just the way things were when all men had hairy chests. I can throw gearing specs and figures around too, but they matter not when we are already talking of transplanting engines.

You know, a 4 cyl series II is nice. It might be fun to putter around in for a while. I'd like to own one. But I'd take my Disco II over that any day.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Str0ud]

Some questions are unanswerable, some answers are unquestionable.

 

[kennith]

That's deep man. But definately true.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[p m]

Unfortunately, The ones we do have are too concerned about moving backwards in technology because that's just the way things were when all men had hairy chests.

LOL, Kennith, how exactly Rover V8 is a new technology? 43 years and still going strong?
I think the last word is on someone who's ever rebuilt an engine in the middle of nowhere.

 

[utahdog2003]

PM and I are speaking from a crawler perspective. I think Kennith and his 'in the bush' references are stuck in the outback somewhere...

at any rate, agree to disagree.

 

[kennith]

Yeah,

I probably am. I've been there rebuilding engines in the middle of nowhere. It dosen't really matter what engine it is, it's still a bitch. Actually had to whittle a carb linkage from hardwood once. I can agree to dissagree, it's just that I was having fun arguing. It's different arguing here, because you have the time to carefully construct your replies and try your best to leave holes out of them. When it comes to engines, it's really to each their own.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Peter-man99]

thanks for the responses, when I asked the question I left if vauge so that I could get a wide variety of answers. I am just trying to learn as much as I can about different cars in different applications.

I know it was never really mentioned but I had an 87 cherokee with the in line 6 I thought that was a pretty reliable motor and simple enough for me to work on. I certainly don't know how it compares to a wide range of other engines but I enjoyed its simplicity. What is your take on the jeep engines?

 

[kennith]

I've never owned one, but most of the people I know who do are happy with them. I personally like straight sixes in general, so it would get a good vote from me, albeit not a particularly informed one.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Robert Godshall]

I would have to say that the straight six that the jeeps have is the one of the most reliable engines out there. for instance a girl i used too go to school with had 3 different wranglers and one cherokee the wranglers all were lost due to engine faliure in an off road sitiuation. Ironicly they were all 4 cylinders. then she bought a relitivly new cherokee classic a '98 with 120,000 on the clock if i remember correctly. and after an additional 50,000 and some heavy wheeling it only developed minorest of minor valve taps. In my opinion anything short of a straight six belongs on the street not the trail.

This concludes my current statement
Robert Godshall

 

[p m]

Kennith, here's a photo of the engine bay - and that's supposedly one of the most reliable engines ever.

Here's another engine, just for comparison