Crazy people on gun forums.

[knewsom]

Dan, on the issue of public liberty, freedom of expression, excessive use of force by law enforcement, and the constitutional right to protest, you and I are in 100% agreement.

I have to wonder though, if the reason police have stepped up their armaments is simply because average citizens have as well? More people own major firepower than ever - and this is not necessarily a bad thing, as statistics have shown, but police need the tools to stand up to that increased firepower as well should they need to do so in the line of duty. I suppose the question of where that line of duty lies still remains, and has been a topic of debate for decades.

 

[ptschram]

While some may applaud towns like mine for having access to nice tools, I'm left a little skeptical. Notice in the videos above whenever a citizen mentions the 4th Amendment or the Bill Of Rights - the cops look like you just asked them what the cure for cancer is. They're clueless as to what you have asked of them. I would bet that if ever given the chance, 98% of cops would fail a test about the constitution, the same constitution they've sworn to protect. So why are we arming a police force with assault rifles when they do not even fully understand what they're protecting?

Sadly, if a CITIZEN dares to exercise a God-Given, Constitutionally protected right in a contact with a police officer, it is all too often used as further grounds to restrict that person's rights.

The time I was detained for swearing within earshot of a stupid LEO, when I told him I was going to exercise my right to remain silent (I was already being detained for running my mouth for having the audacity to say "fuck it, next time I won't try to help by calling the cops if I find some obviously stolen property"), I had a gun pointed at me and was threatened with being shot if I put my hands in my pockets again.

This happens all too often-and not just to me. I'm afraid that if one demands a warrant and cites the fourth amendment, it would be used as grounds for warrant-less entry and detention.

As for arming LEOs, we recently had a local town Marshal shot by two crank-heads one of whom admitted that they were going to go door-to-door robbing people until they had enough money and a vehicle to run.

There are some VERY bad people out there and once in awhile, I'm glad there are LEOs who do their job well (like Trevor and Jason).

 

[jhmover]

Speaking of crazy people.

 

[ptschram]

Speaking of crazy people.

The Harris County Precinct 5 Constable’s Office said the children did not appear to be dehydrated and were in a good condition.

The District Attorney decided not to press charges, but the case has been referred to the Child Protective Services.


Sounds to me as though this is a non-issue. The kids did not seem to suffer any injury.

OMG, plane lands on time, all passengers happy to be home.

 

[Devildog01]

The Harris County Precinct 5 Constable?s Office said the children did not appear to be dehydrated and were in a good condition.

The District Attorney decided not to press charges

This is the crazy part.

 

[jhmover]

The Harris County Precinct 5 Constable?s Office said the children did not appear to be dehydrated and were in a good condition.

The District Attorney decided not to press charges, but the case has been referred to the Child Protective Services.


Sounds to me as though this is a non-issue. The kids did not seem to suffer any injury.

OMG, plane lands on time, all passengers happy to be home.

So, you think leaving a 5 months old boy and an 18 month old girl alone in a car (regardless the weather) for an hour unattended is OK? Wouldn't happen in my house.

 

[ptschram]

So, you think leaving a 5 months old boy and an 18 month old girl alone in a car (regardless the weather) for an hour unattended is OK? Wouldn't happen in my house.

They suffered not for the experience.

 

[Agent]

I understand that and I agree to a point. A mechanic should have all the right tools for the job, and so should our police force. However, I feel these tools are being used for the wrong reasons more times than not.

Like it or not we do have the right to protest. You or I may not agree with what's being protested, whether it's the Westboro Baptist Church or the Save The Children Foundation, but they do have a constitutional right to protest. Or, do we?

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This is the shit that "does not happen in America". Police entering homes with no warrants or permission from the home owner.

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A well equipped police force should also be equipped with reasonable officers. Stuff like this is in the news every month.

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On the flip side of this we have stuff like this happening time-to-time. It's instances like this that I feel our police force should have access to AR's, shotguns with 10-round magazines, sniper rifles....

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but not instances like this:

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While some may applaud towns like mine for having access to nice tools, I'm left a little skeptical. Notice in the videos above whenever a citizen mentions the 4th Amendment or the Bill Of Rights - the cops look like you just asked them what the cure for cancer is. They're clueless as to what you have asked of them. I would bet that if ever given the chance, 98% of cops would fail a test about the constitution, the same constitution they've sworn to protect. So why are we arming a police force with assault rifles when they do not even fully understand what they're protecting?



I know the topic is a double-edged sword. But I'm still left wondering what the police officers are afraid of that makes them think they need heavy fire-power readily available within arms reach 24/7. It was not like this 10 years ago.

Your points are well taken, but you are also over estimating the number of officers that are incompetent. They're out there, brother, I've seen them and worked with them, but not as many as you think.

Why the fire power 24/7? Because you can't predict when you might need it and having your long guns at the office do no good when you're across the city or county responding to some sort of call involving an armed suspect. To go into a little more detail, handguns suck as fight stoppers. They're harder to shoot and their projectiles are much less effective at stopping an attacker. Long guns on the other hand are considerable easier to shoot and much more effective. When you're going into a situation that may end in a gunfight, you want all the advantage you can get.

The world is not the same place it was 10 or 15 years ago. Terrorism and active shooters in particular have greatly changed the game. In my little corner of the world drug use and the crime associated with it has sky rocketed. On my old beat I had my pistol out nearly every shift and a long gun several times a week. I never dreamed what lurked just under the surface, so to speak, until I hit the streets. There is pure evil out there and what I and any good cop fears is find it (or it finding us as is sometimes the case) and being ill prepared and under equipped to deal with it.

Like I said above though, you points are taken and I share your concerns about uses of force and constitutional issues. There are few things I loath more than a bad cop; they do immeasurable damage to the public trust and make the jobs of those of us judt trying to do right that much harder.

 

[brian4d]

Your points are well taken, but you are also over estimating the number of officers that are incompetent. They're out there, brother, I've seen them and worked with them, but not as many as you think.

Why the fire power 24/7? Because you can't predict when you might need it and having your long guns at the office do no good when you're across the city or county responding to some sort of call involving an armed suspect. To go into a little more detail, handguns suck as fight stoppers. They're harder to shoot and their projectiles are much less effective at stopping an attacker. Long guns on the other hand are considerable easier to shoot and much more effective. When you're going into a situation that may end in a gunfight, you want all the advantage you can get.

The world is not the same place it was 10 or 15 years ago. Terrorism and active shooters in particular have greatly changed the game. In my little corner of the world drug use and the crime associated with it has sky rocketed. On my old beat I had my pistol out nearly every shift and a long gun several times a week. I never dreamed what lurked just under the surface, so to speak, until I hit the streets. There is pure evil out there and what I and any good cop fears is find it (or it finding us as is sometimes the case) and being ill prepared and under equipped to deal with it.

Like I said above though, you points are taken and I share your concerns about uses of force and constitutional issues. There are few things I loath more than a bad cop; they do immeasurable damage to the public trust and make the jobs of those of us judt trying to do right that much harder.

I've dealt with officers in the recent past have been good but not always good. My two speeding tickets from State Troopers have been no nonsense and slow the fuck down attitudes. They see to much death and dumb drivers to act any other way, I respect that. Sheriff dept. in my town are outstanding no issues. I have had issues with city police in my earlier years that fell into the realm of the videos above. In my case I hired a lawyer and the case was dropped shortly thereafter. I believe there are the good and bad but mostly good throughout and will respect your rights especially when pressed. I think the bad cops stem from the shit they see on a day to day basis and dealing with the scum of the earth, it taints them. My response with that would be if you can't handle your job it's time to look elsewhere. It would be very easy for police to lump everyone together because of the crap they see day in day out but they must resist that urge and practice professionalism in their job duties while being safe at the same time.

 

[Durt D1ver]

With the changes in policies and tactics come the new weapons and training. Before the Columbine and North Hollywood shootings, the trend in public safety was to surround, contain, and wait for SWAT. After Columbine, the media and politicians slammed these SOP's and now active shooter scenarios are handled differently. With active shooter scenarios, we're now supposed to immediately enter, confront, and attempt to subdue the threat. Departments realized that patrol cop with only a handgun or shotgun is tactically useless in a high threat scenario against a shooter that more than 50-100 feet away, which has a rifle, carbine, or is just spraying bullets.

 

[D Chapman]

With the changes in policies and tactics come the new weapons and training. Before the Columbine and North Hollywood shootings, the trend in public safety was to surround, contain, and wait for SWAT. After Columbine, the media and politicians slammed these SOP's and now active shooter scenarios are handled differently. With active shooter scenarios, we're now supposed to immediately enter, confront, and attempt to subdue the threat. Departments realized that patrol cop with only a handgun or shotgun is tactically useless in a high threat scenario against a shooter that more than 50-100 feet away, which has a rifle, carbine, or is just spraying bullets.

And this is bullshit. Over half the cops out there are so overweight and unfit, confronting or attempting to subdue a suspect is virtually impossible unless that suspect is held up in a confined space, and if that's the case why not just wait for SWAT?

Seriously, if I were ever to rob a bank, my get-away vehicle would be my feet. The cops, at least around here, are fat as fuck. From what I've seen this is the norm elsewhere, too. But they all have fast cars. So I think I would have a better chance at getting away on foot that I would on a motorcycle.

In an active shooter situation such as Columbine, I find it hard to believe that a single officer is going to enter a building, one-by-one, as they arrive on the scene, to take down a suspect.

Even if it's not a large public building, I don't see where it's beneficial for a lone officer to enter a home or small building. That just seems scary to me.

I understand that a pistol is pretty much useless at 50-100'. But I do not think that argument holds weight. An AR-15 with iron sights is pretty much useless at 500 yards. So what's the point to be made? Should police officers also have a .308 Arctic Warfare in their trunk? How about a .50BMG? Where should the line be drawn?

I'm not mad police departments have AR's in their cruisers. I can understand that there may be rare instances where the AR may be useful to the typical patrol cop. I just do not believe that's what these guns are for or why they've been made available. I can't understand why an average police officer is better prepared than a Soldier, unless, of course, police officers are being trained to act as soldiers in the event of a [enter circumstance here].

Our cops are out of shape; instead of putting them on a fitness plan and giving them hand-to-hand combat training we give them a tazer.

Our cops are rude and commonly disrespect others because they believe the badge commands them respect; instead of a 6-shot .38 revolver we give them the confidence in a 15-round, semi-automatic, .40cal, extra magazines, and a bullet proof vest.

Instead of our cops asking people to vacate their homes voluntarily in the event of a disaster due to safety concerns we give them an AR-15, hollow-point bullets, and permission the break your door down with a steel ram and force you from your home.

...I'm just wondering where all of this is going. That's all.

 

[brian4d]

...I'm just wondering where all of this is going. That's all.

You know where it's headed. It's headed to a 'you have no rights' state. These isolated events might not be so isolated in 10 years...

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[ptschram]

I think the bad cops stem from the shit they see on a day to day basis and dealing with the scum of the earth, it taints them. My response with that would be if you can't handle your job it's time to look elsewhere. It would be very easy for police to lump everyone together because of the crap they see day in day out but they must resist that urge and practice professionalism in their job duties while being safe at the same time.

This is basically my argument.

The overwhelmingly vast majority of "contacts" a LEO has with their served community is guilty of at the very worst, nothing more than a minor civil infraction yet too many of them treat everyone as though they are a murderous felon.

 

[stu454]

....It would be very easy for police to lump everyone together because of the crap they see day in day out but they must resist that urge and practice professionalism in their job duties while being safe at the same time.

Several cops I know only see three kinds of people: other cops, cops' families and everyone else.

Most of us get lumped in with the scum of the earth in the 'everyone else' category.

 

[D Chapman]

Just as there are funeral homes out there that prey upon grieving persons, and charge money for services not performed, or charge inflated rates because the the people are uninformed. That doesn't mean that everyone in the buisness is a criminal.

We're tightly regulated by the FTC on pricing. We're inspected a minimum of once every 3-years by the State Board. If people are charged for services not preformed they'll catch it, and believe me, it's not taken lightly.

I have to wonder, though, what can a funeral home charge for and not provide to unsuspecting families?

If people are charged inflated rates it's because the family did not conduct due-diligence and shop around on price. But inflated rates does not make you a crook last time I checked.

As of late there have been laws passed by the Obama administration that takes the checks-and-balances out of law enforcement. If you make an unlawful arrest, there is very little recourse the victim can take, if any, against the police officer or his/her department. I found this out the hard way when I did not invite 4 officers in who were "investigating a noise complaint". Because I did not invite the officers in I was arrested for "obstructing justice". It was tossed out in court, but not after I spent the night in jail and missed a day of work. If a funeral director makes a mistake on the job it could cost him/her their livelihood; if a police officer messes up it's just another day at the office because they're protected by some silly ass law.

 

[Durt D1ver]

I'm sure regulations covering you are different in VA than they may be in LA or AZ, or NJ. Regulations and laws about police conduct and policy will also differ from state to state. The conduct during Katrina would most likely not have happened in the northeast to the extent it did in Louisiana. What you are saying happened to you probably wouldn't have happened to you where I am in NJ. The point I was trying to make is that you can't make grossly exaggerated statements about a profession, and profess they are absolute. I'm pretty sure that you're not a crook, Dan.

* I deleted that comment immediately after posting it, because I realized that it was being unfair to you.

 

[ptschram]

I'm sure regulations covering you are different in VA than they may be in LA or AZ, or NJ. Regulations and laws about police conduct and policy will also differ from state to state. The conduct during Katrina would most likely not have happened in the northeast to the extent it did in Louisiana. What you are saying happened to you probably wouldn't have happened to you where I am in NJ. The point I was trying to make is that you can't make grossly exaggerated statements about a profession, and profess they are absolute. I'm pretty sure that you're not a crook, Dan.

* I deleted that comment immediately after posting it, because I realized that it was being unfair to you.

Having been detained five times for disorderly conduct because I dared to speak my mind to a LEO who was overstepping his bounds, I disagree.

Each time, I was detained, threatened with jail and berated until someone with enough authority got there and I was released with a most heartfelt apology.

If I'm in the wrong, I shut up and do what I'm told. If the LEO is in the wrong, chances are they are going to be told about it by me and then by an officer with more authority.

I am certain that were I not articulate, white, middle-aged, and a documented proper person, these encounters would have gone much worse.

I am sad/glad to find that Dan and I share these experiences as well.

When I ran for Sheriff, one of the points I emphasized was that my parents taught me to recognize LEOs as my friends and the people to go to for help. That is no longer the case with me, and it may never have been the case for people like Trayvan Martin-or whatever the kid with the hoodie's name is/was. That is a cause for concern for me that anyone would feel that way about the people who I was taught are there to help and protect me.

 

[Big Papa]

I have a close friend that is a retired police officer. He told me they would get atleast 10-12 domestic dispute calls a night. I can see why some officers become rude & impatient, having to deal with peoples BS on a daily basis. That's the main reason he retired early.

 

[Roach]

Have you seen the show on History Channel about the bunker company? I have seen that and I worry about the people buying those...

Well, if you lived in Mo, Tx, Ok, or any other state prone to tornadoes, you may re-think that opinion. Did you get a look at the footage from Joplin?

 

[Roach]

And this is bullshit. Over half the cops out there are so overweight and unfit, confronting or attempting to subdue a suspect is virtually impossible unless that suspect is held up in a confined space, and if that's the case why not just wait for SWAT?

Seriously, if I were ever to rob a bank, my get-away vehicle would be my feet. The cops, at least around here, are fat as fuck. From what I've seen this is the norm elsewhere, too. But they all have fast cars. So I think I would have a better chance at getting away on foot that I would on a motorcycle.

In an active shooter situation such as Columbine, I find it hard to believe that a single officer is going to enter a building, one-by-one, as they arrive on the scene, to take down a suspect.

Even if it's not a large public building, I don't see where it's beneficial for a lone officer to enter a home or small building. That just seems scary to me.

I understand that a pistol is pretty much useless at 50-100'. But I do not think that argument holds weight. An AR-15 with iron sights is pretty much useless at 500 yards. So what's the point to be made? Should police officers also have a .308 Arctic Warfare in their trunk? How about a .50BMG? Where should the line be drawn?

I'm not mad police departments have AR's in their cruisers. I can understand that there may be rare instances where the AR may be useful to the typical patrol cop. I just do not believe that's what these guns are for or why they've been made available. I can't understand why an average police officer is better prepared than a Soldier, unless, of course, police officers are being trained to act as soldiers in the event of a [enter circumstance here].

Our cops are out of shape; instead of putting them on a fitness plan and giving them hand-to-hand combat training we give them a tazer.

Our cops are rude and commonly disrespect others because they believe the badge commands them respect; instead of a 6-shot .38 revolver we give them the confidence in a 15-round, semi-automatic, .40cal, extra magazines, and a bullet proof vest.

Instead of our cops asking people to vacate their homes voluntarily in the event of a disaster due to safety concerns we give them an AR-15, hollow-point bullets, and permission the break your door down with a steel ram and force you from your home.

...I'm just wondering where all of this is going. That's all.

This is a very lucid observation.