D1 Overheating Issues -- guru knowledge required

d1owner

Active member
May 11, 2005
28
0
I have a 97 D1 with about 196K miles. The vehicle is in excellent condition.

Problem:

In the warm weather with the A/C on, the temp. gauge seems to rise when the car is in traffic, etc. I never let the needle get too high because when it begins to rise it continues to do so. I would say the needle is typically at the 40-45% position (below middle). When the temp begins to rise I let it get to the 60-65% position (above middle) and then turn off the A/C.

Background:

I have had it at the dealer for diagnoses over the past year to year or so with no true answer (at that time the car had about 140K miles). I even had the head mechanic look into this issue. The following items/parts have been repaired/replaced (mostly replaced):

1) Radiator (around 110K) and water pump -- installed in the cooler weather months

2) Thermostat (a few of them since the beginning of this problem)

3) Temp Sending Unit

4) Heater Core

5) Viscous clutch fan (twice since problem first reported)

6) Hoses

7) Coolant resevoir tank (very recently since the original one completely rupture; my guess is probably because of the overheating issue and I forget to check the temp needle)

8) Intake manifold gasket

9) Retest the coolant's specific gravity

10) Other items for which I do not remember. One of these was cleaning the leaves in front of the radiator.


On cooler mornings, especially winter, I often hear the sound of fluid rush into the dashboard. This is usually a sign of low coolant, a bad heater core, and/or a leak. Since the heater core was replaced (a few months ago), the problem still persists. The system was pressure tested (on a few occasions) but no leak was ever found.


My Theories/Questions:

1) I never liked the coolant rush sound and feel this may be at the heart of the problem. Perhaps there is a leak in the system that gets sealed when the engine warms up and expands rubber, etc. Before it seals it permits air into the system possibly causing a bubble and disrupting coolant flow. A problem like this is difficult for a dealer to diagnose because they basically run the car for 20-30 minutes and then check things.

2) The replacement radiator not sufficient to cool engine coolant. I replaced the radiator in the late fall/early winter months a coupld of years ago with a factory replacement part from the dealer. The problem did not surface after installation because it was cold weather. But, as the warm weather arrived, some 30K miles later (I drive a lot), this issue began. Coincidence?

3) Perhaps my engine block's coolant passageways have become clogged a bit, not allowing enough flow to properly cool the engine.

4) My A/C compressor may require too much effort to turn (it is original) and thus loads engine too heavily.

5) Sometimes when the car is turned off, the electric fans keep running for a few minutes. I cannot tell when these fans will stay on and when they won't. One time recently, when I turned off the car, the coolant temp on the gauge was elevated and I figured that the fans would come on and stay on after I turned off the ignition; but they did not. Other times, the temp is perfectly fine but the fans run.

6) There are no visible leaks or smells of coolant.


Does anyone have an answer to this perplexing and troubling problem?

Thanks
 

RoverChic

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
1,446
0
den Haag
I know you said no leaks but does it hold coolant? What about a cracked radiator? Is there a CEL on?

Warmer weather = expansion..I wonder about the head gasket? Slow leak maybe? Do you ever add coolant? Throwing out ideas. Maybe you should flush the system and then re-add the coolant mixture (50/50)and allow the system to "burp".
 
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syoung

Guest
You have air in the system and that needs to be fixed- despite the fact that it probably isn't the cause of all the problems.

On your electric fans- has anyone tested them for proper speed? Sometimes they spin, but not fast enough and they don't effectively do their job. A good shop has an optical tach that can tell the fan rpm. Test 'em-

Have you tested your temp gauge? I'd suggest installing a 'real' one instead of using that silly oem unit. Verify your temps with a known good instrument.
 
You have put another 90K miles on your radiator... It is likely time for yet another. C'mawn, there aren't many folks like you and me who put this kind of mileage on our trucks-suck it up and buy a replacement!

The gurgling sound is not a big problem-UNLESS your expansion tank pressurizes immediately upon starting the engine.

Personally, I'd pull the radiator out, haul it to my radiator contractor and have them flow test. If it's recoverable, perhaps chemical cleaning will return it to its former glory.

(Shameless plug-I have finally found CB radiators that fit in our trucks with no mods)
 
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D Chapman

Guest
I would stat with a flow test, like PT said.

Also, was the cooling fan but on backwards?
Is it a stock fan?
Does the clutch on the A/C pump turn freely when the belt is off?
Do all the pulleys turn freely when the belt is off?

You may try "Water Wetter". I think NAPA sells it. It's an additive for the coolant. We had good luck with it in a drag car....
 
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studio54

Guest
I have seen this befor

If you are getting air in the system with out a known source you may have a ?leaking? head gasket. I.e. gas getting blown into the coolant. Over heating can result from a decrease in radiator service area where there is gas and no water. A tiny leak can add up over time

The question is: is your cooling system under unusually high pressure during normal running? If it dose there is only one place the gas can be coming from. (apart from expansion. Is gas collecting in the expansion tank before the coolant boils? Again question where the gas is coming from.

NB: I am not talking about a full failure of the head gasket with water in oil and oil in water (there isn?t right?). It can be only a very small leek and can continue for a long time without worsening.

Re fans

Fans are controled by both cooling and AC systems and can over run under normal conditions. (from green bible) but could still need looking at as syoung sugested
 
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syoung

Guest
take an exhaust gas analyzer and hold the probe over the expansion tank with the cap off and run the engine up to temp. If the analyzer sees a trace of anything, you've got a bad head gasket.
 
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D Chapman

Guest
syoung said:
take an exhaust gas analyzer and hold the probe over the expansion tank with the cap off and run the engine up to temp. If the analyzer sees a trace of anything, you've got a bad head gasket.
Or a cracked head, or a cracked liner......
 

d1owner

Active member
May 11, 2005
28
0
Thanks everyone for some unbelievable insight.

It looks like my next course of action will be to perform an exhaust gas test over the coolant expansion tank. The only question I have is that if this is truly the problem wouldn't this temp problem always surface even in cooler weather?

Then I may need to revisit the fans. Both the electric fans as well as the main clutch fan should operate at the right speeds and hopefully in the correct direction. Maybe when the fan goes actually goes on (because of a slightly elevated temp), the reason that the temp rises even quicker is that the fan is spinning the wrong way (blades reversed) thus drawing even hotter air against the radiator !!! (hmmm)


If these come up short I will probably look at the radiator (ughh) and then the A/C clutch.

Thanks
 

geoff

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2004
164
1
Austin, TX
The bubbles are probably the place to look first. I would also mount a real temp guage as a cross check. Its not easy to get air out of the system either. Are you sure its purged? Open the heater when purging. There is a valve on Discos that diverts the coolant and could leave air in the heater core as I recall (someone confirm this as in my RRC coolant always flowed throught the heater core but heard that changed).
 
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agro1

Guest
Is your coolant level staying the same or are you loosing any ? If so, you may have the beginnings of a slipped sleeve. I doubt it, and the advice above is very good. All things to consider. To check for a slipped sleeve, pull each plug one at a time and run the motor. Watch the plug hole and if there is any coolant getting into the combustion chamber you'll get coolant coming out plug hole. It'll prob throw an OBDII/CEL code but you can erase it with the proper scanner. Easy and quick test for the worst case scenario.
 
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studio54

Guest
DI?s have a vacuum switch stops coolant flowing through the heating coil when BOTH temp controls are set to cold.
 

Ron

Well-known member
Jun 15, 2004
1,820
0
Main Line
$5 on a dropped liner.

It sounds like the coolant is being pressureized. Run the truck with the cap off the overflow tank and look for bubbles.
 
studio54 said:
DI?s have a vacuum switch stops coolant flowing through the heating coil when BOTH temp controls are set to cold.

This was discontinued in 1995.

If the tank is not pressurizing immediately upon start-up, it's probably not a head gasket. Pull the plugs out. If you find one that is suspiciously clean, it might have a slipped liner.

These vehicles are notorious for clogged radiators and this truck has alreayd had one replaced due to clogging... Seems to me the most obvious place to start is the radiator.

The fans won't come on unless it's already hot-ergo, it's not the fans fault.

The rupturing of the tank is a concern, but not that uncommon, even on trucks with well operating cooling systems-the damned things fail, sometimes catastrophically.

Might be a good idead to put a secondary temp gauge in a heater hose so we can see exactly how hot it's getting.

As I go back and re-read the initial post, given the fact that it only gets hot (as indicated by the temp gauge...) when the A/C is on, it does not seem likely it is something serious (yet) like a head gasket and almost certainly either a radiator flow issue, or fan clutch issue.

PT (Phineas Throgmorton!)
 

d1owner

Active member
May 11, 2005
28
0
It does not appear (at this point) that I am losing coolant.

If the coolant is being pressurized, does this mean a head gasket issue where only exhaust gases are entering the coolant, but no coolant is getting combusted?

Or, it is just possible to have air in the system and it has not been burped. I think the procedure is to run the unit with the cap off and the heater on.
 
d1owner said:
It does not appear (at this point) that I am losing coolant.

If the coolant is being pressurized, does this mean a head gasket issue where only exhaust gases are entering the coolant, but no coolant is getting combusted?

Or, it is just possible to have air in the system and it has not been burped. I think the procedure is to run the unit with the cap off and the heater on.

In order for th cooling system to work as intended, it must pressurize to some extent. If it immediately pressurizes upon start-up, you have a problem. If the pressure rise is commensurate with increasing temperature, allis well.

Given the extreme pressure differential combustion gases versus coolant pressure, you will end up with combustion gases in the coolant-the only coolant that will make it into the combustion chambe ris that which is drawn in as it cools. But, this is usually enough to steam clean the plug in the affected cylinder (effected?).

If you did not have this problem before the weather became warmer and you began using your A/C, it is unlikely to be an air bubble.
 

d1owner

Active member
May 11, 2005
28
0
PT,

If I did not have this problem in cooler weather, would that also be an indication that I do not have a head gasket leak where combustion gases are entering the coolant?

I did notice over the past few days that I have not heard the fluid rush sound when starting the car in the morning, even on some colder mornings. Interestingly, even on the warmer afternoons, with A/C on and in traffic, I did not get the temperature to rise?

Could it have been an air bubble that was finally burped from the system?

If the shop pressure-checked the system (and all was fine) wouldn't that also indicate that there were no exhaust gas leaks into the coolant?
 
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