Dangerous Dog Advice - big dilemma for a dog lover...

[MUSKYMAN]

well I have owned a number of rotties and they all have been nothing but great dogs, but I also brought them up correctly from the time they were puppies.

I very often felt bad telling people that a dog isnt worth the effort, I have had to do it a number of times. But there is no doubt that it happens.

I put it like this

If my wifes shih-tzu bites someone with intent they say your dog just bite me when a Rottie bites someone with intent you call the Paramedic.

cable TV makes the dog whisperer look like everything ends in a great warm loving moment then the credits roll. Thats just not real world, dogs take long periods of time to relearn appropriate responces . and that time needs to be 100% consistant .I have dealt with dogs that stand at the door to thier cage a snarl at anybody that comes near and if you open the cage they will take every chance to take a chunk out of you. Believe it or not I dont think thats the most dangerous type to deal with, those dogs are angry that they have ended up where they are and will take every chance to hurt you so you never give them the chance. The truley dangerouse ones are the ones that you feel are now ok and seam good 98% of the time and then in that 2% something triggers a reaction or responce linked to the times they were abused and they respond in a very aggresive way and for just a few moments they lash out. the problem with those dogs when they are Rottties is it only takes a instant to do life changing damage.

 

[jimmyhat1978]

I've got to say I agree with the comments above. There are certain windows in the development of a dogs brain where human interaction and reinforcment need to happen. If you have a 2 year old dog that is showing this kind of behavior chances are this dog was not properly socalized. while it is likey that this dog could be trained to be a model citizen 99% of the time that 1% is too much to risk. My guess is that even though the dog is now healthy physically, he is not a happy camper because he does not have a clear concept of the pack nor the place of humans within it. First step would be to get the opinion of a local rescue organization, about the aggression issue. They generally tend to be pretty objective since thier resourses are somewhat limited. If they feel that the agression issue can not be overcome 100% then the dog needs to be put down. While some agression in dogs is normal, overly agressive dogs are unstable mentally. If you ever watch a pack of dogs outright agression is not the norm, the more typical behavior within a pack is growling, staring, urinating, flipping over, ect. Full out fighting is quite rare. Dogs have very specific behaviors that show submission and dominace without actual figting. If this dog is showing random or atypical agression then there is a bigger problem that it is unlikley you or others can fix.

 

[kennith]

Muskyman is right as well, and that's a point I may not have illustrated well enough. This isn't a poodle. It's a dog, allright, but it's a lot bigger, and it can actually hurt you. Control, and a constant, crystal clear understanding of the pecking order of the house is vitally important.

He brings up another point in passing. You don't know where these dogs have come from. Because of their size, they are used for their intimidation factor, and many people encourage their ferocity. An abandoned dog could well have simply outgrown an owner's ability to control it.

Some breeds are indeed more agressive than others, and that's fine. You do, however, need to factor in behavioral tendancies, as well as size and weight when you decide to aquire a dog. If he grows to the breeds maximum size, and displays agressive tendancies, can I control him? If the answer is no, look elsewhere.

I find troublesome animals challenging, and I like them. I like them because of what they are, an animal that still behaves as an animal ought to. This is not to say that I don't expect to be treated with respect, I get that point across.

It is true that every now and again, a large, agressive dog may not be able to integrate with an average household. This is because the household doesn't operate the same way the natural world does, not because the dog is broken. Outdoors and free, the dog would be the alpha male, able to breed as much as he wants, and he would sire strong puppies who would carry on his own strengths. Such an animal deserves a certain amount of respect. No need to kill him because he can't play house.

If they get too old, it can be very difficult to gain complete control, and sometimes the best you can expect is a balancing act, but this doesn't mean that there is no place for them.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[jimmyhat1978]

Dogs are a domesticated animal. Man will alway be around this dog unless he is released as a stray and then becomes an even bigger problem. Unless he is 100% stable the risk is not worth it. I agree that it is unfair that this dog has developed in the way that he has. The laws on cruelty are way to lenient and unenforced and untill that changes this sort of thing will continue. Don't misunderstand me I love all dogs. However, at no point should the welfare of an individual dog take priority over human saftey.

 

[kennith]

Domesticated for a purpose, they have weapons and senses that we do not posess, and were invaluable during the time of early man. Our ancestors have relied on the tendancies we recently have begun to discourage time and time again in order to survive more readily. We can not encourage a tendancy for a period of time, and then simply discard those that are set to display it when it is no longer needed.

As for valuing one over another, I will go either way. The animal follows it's instincts, and thus, sometimes misbehaves in our eyes. A human makes a decision to break it's own codes of ethics before misbehaving. Which form of life would you value above the other, the one who can not avoid denying the other's nature, or the one that denies it's own nature by choice?

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[FIVESPDDISCO]

again you have a mean dog by breed


:banghead: we have had this discussion before on here. you cannot lump a whole breed into a category like that. Rots are by breed cattle dogs, not attack dogs....

Yes you can, It like saying my dalmation is Not hyper. give me a break. I did not say they where bad dogs. just.... forget it. your right there all lap dogs you should adopt it.

 

[Alyssa]

What a lame response Ron, sheeesh.....puppy wouldn't hurt the fleas on her back!

Actually, Puppy is surprisingly violent. She was the bully of the dog park. She would attack Great Danes, Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Pitts, you name it. The bigger and scarier the dog, the more aggressive she was. Always stupid, always pretty, but NOT a docile creature.

 

[Alyssa]

And PLEASE contact a rescue before calling animal control or putting the dog down.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

Actually, Puppy is surprisingly violent. She was the bully of the dog park. She would attack Great Danes, Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Pitts, you name it. The bigger and scarier the dog, the more aggressive she was. Always stupid, always pretty, but NOT a docile creature.

LOL...i'v seen this:rofl:

my mother in law has a shih-tzu that would jump off the couch and lock onto the ears of my then 13yr old rottie, he would stand still and look at me for "permission" to tear the little fluffball apart. But because that fluffball never lived in a true pack and the far alpha dog in the house was highly socialized there was not the natural reaction that would have come in nature.

 

[EricSiepmann]

Wow. A lot of bad advice in this thread.

A choke chain is a poor obedience tool. It places most of the pressure on the front of the neck which is dangerous with a novice. You use a dominant dog collar to correct dominant behavior, not a choke collar. The right tool for the job.

Dominating a dog is also a very poor peice of advice. I would love to kill the idiot that brought this gem into the public eye. What happens when the dog doesn't submit and bites you? Ever seen a good bite? Been bitten? Dominant dog behavior is best left to a trained professional. A reputable one from the Tom Rose School or similar level of expertise. Dominant dog correction involves a life or death choice for the dog. It isn't pretty to watch and is performed in bite gear to protect the handler. It's dangerous to say the least.

Most professionals do not deal in dominant dogs. They should be able to put you in touch with someone who does.

And I am shocked that no one has mentioned this as well. YOUR DOG MAY BE A FEAR BITER. Schizo. Nice and then mental as you described. There is only one humane cure. Put the dog down if he is diagnozed. Speak with a good vet and get his opinion.

Further the dog could have very poor genectics. Could be a very "sharp" dog that can not cope with certain things leading to the aggression.

Surf over to www.Leerburg.com and read the articles there. Especially the ones about
dominant dogs and dog bites.

I would do the following:
1. Confirm the dog is mentally healthy.
2. If he is, explain the situ with a rescue and place him there. This isn't a pet. You need to know how to properly handle the dog.
3. Any signs of mental illness, the only humane thing to do is put the dog down.

Again, go to www.leerburg.com and educate yourself and make the humane and ethical decision for and the dog. The information on the site is excellent and most of it derives from Tom Rose.

EwS

 

[SCSL]

HEY, Call Ceasar Milan! THE DOG WHISPERER!

I have a joke about the Dog Whisperer. Ever hear about the Horse Whisperer?
I would tell it, but it's funnier after you've had a few.

 

[jamesriversmallies]

My cousin took in an abused Rott. I thought it was a great dog. I used to be able to wrestle around with, give it head butts on its big 'ol head. It was always playful and gentle with me. Then one day, my uncle just walked by it where it sat...and it bit him on the hand. Had to get stitches. Her vet told her that a dog with his size and his background can never be fully trusted. She tried to find him a home to no avail. With kids in the picture, she felt she had no choice and had him put down. BTW, she has worked with animals all of her adult life. This was not an easy decision for her to make.

I am a HUGE dog person. But I agree with my cousin's decision. It's sad...no doubt. It is NOT the dog's fault how it turned out. Bottom line, though, is that the risk is too high when it comes to other humans' safety, especially kids or any stranger who may not know what the animal is capable of. A dangerous dog should be put down. So should the person who abused / trained it!!!!!!!!!

Dave

 

[Roverlady]

I've been thinking about your situation some more and I agree with the idea that you should get him out of your house as soon as possible. HOWEVER, I still think you should send him to a rescue/rehab group.

Our Border Collie lived in the local SPCA for one month and was adopted by Border Collie Rescue on his LAST DAY. He was only 4.5 months old and had barked at everyone who came near the kennel. Turns out, he had a broken hip/leg that NO ONE in the SPCA ever noticed! Hard to believe... He was in some much pain and was healing incorrectly the entire time he was at the shelter, no wonder he took cues from the other dogs and barked. He is the most loving, friendly dog you'd ever meet. But it has taken training, trust and time. Not to mention, he's finally healed and no longer in pain (though he still has a little gimp leg!). He still barks when people enter the house or first meet him, and he's got a big bark for a 50# dog, but after five minutes, he's laying at your feet wagging his tail.

I think this dog deserves a chance and some time. If he can't be trained/fixed in a few months, then the decision should be made at that point.

 

[Roverlady]

I have a joke about the Dog Whisperer. Ever hear about the Horse Whisperer?
I would tell it, but it's funnier after you've had a few.

I know WAY too much about the Horse Whisperer...I've seen the movies, read the books, read about the REAL guy and even tried to go to one of his clinics.

So come on Steve--what's the joke?! :bigok:

 

[kennith]

I had a big long response typed, and lost it.

Eric,

The advise isn't bad. It has been tempered with experience and warnings. Sure, you might be bitten. You do not have to have a degree to do this. In my case, it is not best left to professionals. Maby in his case it is, but that's his decision, and I want no part in that.

The point is to make a slow, calculated change to the things around your imediate environment, to include your own behavior. Occasionally, you need to exert force on the animal. This is not violence, this is physical suggestion.

You just have to remember what it is like to be the boss. That little agressive and controlling bit in te back of your brain needs to come out again.

People nowadays are worthless in this regard. You are not training the dog, you are training yourself to intimidate and rule simply on principal and with a minimal display of force. The dog only responds. He either learns that you have become the master, or he learns that you will never be the master, no matter how hard you try. When all this is done, then you work on behavioral training for the animal, if you feel the need.

Personally, I think he should let someone else have the dog.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[eric w siepmann]

I had a big long response typed, and lost it.

Eric,

The advise isn't bad. It has been tempered with experience and warnings. Sure, you might be bitten. You do not have to have a degree to do this. In my case, it is not best left to professionals. Maby in his case it is, but that's his decision, and I want no part in that.

The point is to make a slow, calculated change to the things around your imediate environment, to include your own behavior. Occasionally, you need to exert force on the animal. This is not violence, this is physical suggestion.

You just have to remember what it is like to be the boss. That little agressive and controlling bit in te back of your brain needs to come out again.

People nowadays are worthless in this regard. You are not training the dog, you are training yourself to intimidate and rule simply on principal and with a minimal display of force. The dog only responds. He either learns that you have become the master, or he learns that you will never be the master, no matter how hard you try. When all this is done, then you work on behavioral training for the animal, if you feel the need.

Personally, I think he should let someone else have the dog.

Cheers,

Kennith

Kennith,

Alpha rolling and choke chains are both stupid ideas. Telling a pet owner to intimidate and try to dominate an aggressive dog is stupid advice. The owner needs to first understand the why before acting. Is the dog mentally sound? Is the dog's disposition sound? Those questions need to be answered by experienced folks - trainers specializing in aggressive dogs and vets. Especially since you failed to mention the four signs every dog displays before biting. These are simple things but very important.

Aggressive dogs need to be dealt with in a very controlled manner. In a confined space with a dominant collar, and can not be given the opportunity to "win'. It's that simple.

Your views on force/dominance and dogs are misguided as well. Corrections with a prong collar are needed during the puppy phase and for the rare occassional avoidance correction. Professionals these days are well beyond dominance and crank and yank as you ascribe to. To get the top performance out of a dog you need to motivate. Food, toy or prey drive. That's how you train to the highest level. Dogs become accustomed to every correction you give. Soon you will reach a point that no correction works and you've lost it. The point of a correction is to do it as minimally as possible. The force generated, however, has to be great enough to modify the behavior permanently. I do not dominate my dog at all. And she's a 65lbs belgium malinois who has had bite training and is soon going to personal protection training. She has a good bite. I've worked very hard on getting it as full/deep as possible with a wedge.

The error with handlers is simple. Most are not consistent and do not give a hard enough correction (if at all - some don't even do that). Those are the biggest along with anthropomorphizing the animal. It's not a child in a fur coat but a dog.

A dog is more than it's instincts. It's behavior, drives, breeding and handling all come into play.

And finally, it does take years of experience in handling, training and rehabilitating truly aggressive dogs. Please don't play it off with I have rolled a few "pets" and it ain't science. That's just ignorant. This isn't something anyone but the very best try to do. And like I said, there is a very rigid protocol to follow or you will get severly injured. Read the article on Leerburg. Read Ed's articles and then tell me you don't need the training.

eWs

 

[kennith]

I disagree completely, and on almost every point in your post.

I have been around dangerous animals my entire life, on their turf, in entirely uncontrolled conditions.

The way you understand need, and what it actually means are two different concepts entirely. You can take any elitist position you like, bring a soapbox if it pleases you, as I'm sure people are gathering for some entertainment. What it all comes down to is the simple to digest fact that all roads do not end in "call your professional...".

I know what works with animals. Many here know as well. It is as much about a person's confidence and strength as it is about the animal's experience in life. I preach of changing human behavior, and letting a dog be a dog, though a respectful dog.

I don't advocate turning a dog into a machine waiting for the next pat on the head before he barks or breathes. When I see a dog that no longer behaves as a dog behaves naturally, I am disgusted with it's owner. The methods I mention will, in most cases, cause an animal not to look at it's owner as an inferior being, that is all. They will not change the animals reactions to others to any great degree, they will not cause it to be quiet, they will not make it quit chewing the furniture. I think animals should be expected to respect their owners as much as they recieve their owner's respect. I also think animals should act like animals.

I advocate, rather than turning a dog into a human, turning a human back into a human. As soon as one solidifies his place in the natural world, that world lets him pass unhindered. We are apex predators, the top of our foodchain. Even with the most primitive of our inventions we hunt the largest animals on earth into near extinction. We hold a position of greatness among them, and that position is recognised if it is displayed properly. You watch your safety all the same, but the respect is there. Just as a child will hit his elder, an animal will bite a human. That is the way it is.

Sure, there are unbalanced dogs, and there are unbalanced humans. As a ratio, probably more dogs due to all this breeding. We have caused their fragile mental states, and they are not genetic trash to be thrown away. If you can't handle it, give it to someone who can. Also, if you are bitten after trying something I suggested, take a long, hard, look at what I have written in these posts. See just what sort of person I say you ought to be before trying to dominate anything larger than a gerbil.

I am not misguided, Sir. You simply are a victim of marketing. You have been "sold to", and you have allowed yourself to view the natural world as much lesser than yourself. You are a part of that world, like it or not, and you are as well an animal. We all are.

I maintain all my points, and I further denounce yours.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Roverjoe]

Ok, just a quick update on Roger the Rott since my first post. I have decided at this point not to put Roger down. This is currently not an option. We have actually got quite attached to this guy & have been working with him everyday. He has also been neutered which appears to be helping quite a bit with aggression (and he has quit marking everything).

I have a friend of a friend who is a trainer and she has given me a few books on dog aggression. We are practicing all of the techniques and being very consistent with his training. About a week has passed without incident. :applause: Honestly, I'm soooo glad that I didn't do anything rash & put him down. He truly deserves a chance.

There is no doubt in my mind that Roger will someday soon be an adoptable dog. The advice about the neuter was great - fingers crossed at this point....

 

[ChrismonDA]

Call the Dog Whisperer no shit. He is a very big fan of the Rottweiler and can give you some very good reconditioning exercises.

 

[DJG]

Ok, just a quick update on Roger the Rott since my first post. I have decided at this point not to put Roger down. This is currently not an option. We have actually got quite attached to this guy & have been working with him everyday. He has also been neutered which appears to be helping quite a bit with aggression (and he has quit marking everything).

I have a friend of a friend who is a trainer and she has given me a few books on dog aggression. We are practicing all of the techniques and being very consistent with his training. About a week has passed without incident. :applause: Honestly, I'm soooo glad that I didn't do anything rash & put him down. He truly deserves a chance.

There is no doubt in my mind that Roger will someday soon be an adoptable dog. The advice about the neuter was great - fingers crossed at this point....

Glad to hear it.... Like I said in a post a while back the dog I rescued at a young age that was very agressive is now the best dog I have ever had. Not that ever instance is the same, but we went through a lot. I remember getting a call from my wife in tears saying I don't know what to do, because he kept growling and getting agreesive with our other dog that we have had since she was 7 weeks. That's when I decided to seek professional help (for the dog not my wife, that's a topic for another post) .

Glad to hear things are going ok. The yellow guy below was the troubled child.