DUI Checkpoint refusal

[Axel]

Dont drink and drive, you wont have anything to worry about.

"I don't have anything to hide, therefore I don't have anything to worry about"

That kind of thinking is leading us on a slippery slope towards a slow erosion of our civil rights.


I don't have a problem with the LEO's out there manning the checkpoints, they are just doing the job they are being asked to do. The problem is that they are being asked to do it in the first place.

 

[ptschram]

Axel-you make me proud that you became an American.


With only one exception (and he just doesn't care, just glad to be here where he's safer than his home country), I find that the naturalized citizens tend to be more patriotic than too many of us born here.

 

[brian4d]

That was funny. "You're number 5, you're in big trouble!" "You're number 5, you don't have any constitutional rights!"

Personally, I think cops love DUI checkpoints just because they love to set up orange cones and use their flashlights.

My personal favorite was, "Ah ooo, you're #5 you must not have a drivers license, or, you're under the influence.

Classic.

 

[msggunny]

"I don't have anything to hide, therefore I don't have anything to worry about"

That kind of thinking is leading us on a slippery slope towards a slow erosion of our civil rights.

Explain that one.

If you dont break the law in the first place, you wont have anything to worry about....

 

[brian4d]

It's citizen mental conditioning, or a self fulfilling prophecy. If you give an inch, they'll take a mile.

As much as I disagree with Knewsom he posted a video of the late George Carlin in a great stand up that explains my point to a tee.

 

[KBW7]

They can arrest you for whatever BS they want.... the charge sticking is something completely different.....and they may have a very nice lawsuit coming their way if the arrest is without probable cause.

exactly. I got in a wreck a few years ago at 3am. I was still in college and had been studying not drinking. I was on a road they were repaving and it was raining so I spun out and hit the solicitor's office of all places. Cop immediately thought I HAD to be drunk so with no field sobriety or anything he immediately put me in cuffs. I get to jail and blow a 0.0. Cop then charges me with disorderly conduct. In the bond hearing in the morning (I was given no phone call) the idiot cop told the judge that I was "very polite and cooperative". Judge asked me if I had any questions. I was like how do I get disorderly conduct while being described as "polite and cooperative" and I told the judge I knew he charged me with that because he had already arrested me, had my car impounded, and had me at jail so he figured he'd charge me with something. Judge dropped my disorderly and my lawyer won a case regarding the road not being properly finished with enough grip. The city had to pay for my car to be fixed and a small amount in damages (I could have gone after more but I didn't really want or need it and wanted to be sure I'd win).

The funny part of it is that my dad hit two parked cop cars when he was about the same age and also got out of it due to the road being unfinished and too slick. Without that happening in the past I'd have never known to look into it.

It didn't end there...about a month later the idiots at the city tried to send me a property damage bill for the damage I did to the solicitor's office. My lawyer laughed and took care of it. My buddy in the car got some money from the city as well because his neck was hurt and he asked for medical help and they told him he could go get it on his own and that it wasn't their problem. They don't solve any real crimes here (numbers on solving robberies are among the worst in the nation) but they get awards for giving out ridiculous amounts of DUIs.

 

[p m]

Explain that one.
If you dont break the law in the first place, you wont have anything to worry about....

Prostitution is legal in several counties in Nevada - so if you hire a companion for a couple of hours there, you are not breaking the law. Doesn't mean that you'd necessarily want it known to every living soul in the country.

Plenty of examples of that kind.

You can think of yourself as being morally superior and that example not applicable to you - but it is only relevant in local context. Say, few people would give a rat's ass if they knew you had a stash of firearms in your house in many places in VA, TX, or AZ - but your neighbors would look at you as a weirdo as a child molester if they knew about your stash in MA or coastal CA.

And you know you cannot count on law enforcement to keep their observations to themselves.

 

[AU_88]

Explain that one.

If you dont break the law in the first place, you wont have anything to worry about....

I wonder what Doug was thinking when those police officers took apart his new to him 95 RRC TWR on his trip home with it.

 

[Blue]

If you dont break the law in the first place, you wont have anything to worry about....

I don't want to be stuck in traffic for 30 minutes while the police inspect each vehicle to see if they want to sideline a vehicle for further investigation. Am I shallow because I don't want to suffer a minor inconvenience that could perhaps take just 1 drunk driver off the road? Perhaps you could say that, but I really don't give a shit.

Here's another way to look at it:

The police are going to be coming to your house randomly to do a surprise inspection of the hard drives on all of your computers and to review the internet browsing history on your computers, phones, ipad, etc. They just want to be sure that you don't have any underage porn on there. Don't worry, you aren't into that shit so you have nothing to worry about, right? You'll only be inconvenienced for a bit but just think, it'll all be worth it buddy if they catch just 1 child molester. How can you argue against that? You must be in favor of child molesters if you argue with me here. You and your family just need to sit back on your living room couch, keep your hands where the officers can see them, and wait patiently while other officers sift through your hard drives. Don't smart off either, or you might be considered disorderly or obstructing the police or guilty of one of a few dozen other things we can think up. Oh, and by the way, you have a huge music collection! Are all of these music files downloaded legally?......

 

[ptschram]

If you dont break the law in the first place, you wont have anything to worry about....

I don't want to be stuck in traffic for 30 minutes while the police inspect each vehicle to see if they want to sideline a vehicle for further investigation. Am I shallow because I don't want to suffer a minor inconvenience that could perhaps take just 1 drunk driver off the road? Perhaps you could say that, but I really don't give a shit.

Here's another way to look at it:

The police are going to be coming to your house randomly to do a surprise inspection of the hard drives on all of your computers and to review the internet browsing history on your computers, phones, ipad, etc. They just want to be sure that you don't have any underage porn on there. Don't worry, you aren't into that shit so you have nothing to worry about, right? You'll only be inconvenienced for a bit but just think, it'll all be worth it buddy if they catch just 1 child molester. How can you argue against that? You must be in favor of child molesters if you argue with me here. You and your family just need to sit back on your living room couch, keep your hands where the officers can see them, and wait patiently while other officers sift through your hard drives. Don't smart off either, or you might be considered disorderly or obstructing the police or guilty of one of a few dozen other things we can think up. Oh, and by the way, you have a huge music collection! Are all of these music files downloaded legally?......

Hoorah!:applause: atriot:

BTW-do you own any guns? Sit right there while we determine if you should be allowed to have them.

How about the cabinet in your bathroom,any prescriptions we should know about?

OOH, a bookshelf, any subversive reading material? Ah ha! You have a copy of the "Turner Diaries". You must be a racist. Any other subversive materials? Ooh, a Qu'Ran, you a terrorist? What's that, "The Anarchist's CookBook"-you are a terrorist.

It's pretty obvious to me the risk of allowing the government such unrestricted access to our lives without reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

 

[Blue]

Hoorah!:applause: atriot:

BTW-do you own any guns? Sit right there while we determine if you should be allowed to have them.

How about the cabinet in your bathroom,any prescriptions we should know about?

OOH, a bookshelf, any subversive reading material? Ah ha! You have a copy of the "Turner Diaries". You must be a racist. Any other subversive materials? Ooh, a Qu'Ran, you a terrorist? What's that, "The Anarchist's CookBook"-you are a terrorist.

It's pretty obvious to me the risk of allowing the government such unrestricted access to our lives without reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

Well, of course, if the police are going to be in your house for a random hard drive search they will need to know if you have any guns in the house. It would only be prudent to check that the guns are safely stored (for the children's sake) and in safe operating condition (for your own safety's sake). We better also make sure that they were legally purchased and registered and that you are properly trained in their use (for the sake of society's safety). You know, this might take a while to determine all of this. The firearms should be stored at the police station until these myriad questions can be answered, for...you know, safety's sake.

 

[msggunny]

Driving on a public road is a privilege, not a right.

In order to drive you have to follow rules, have a valid drivers license, etc.

If one of those rules and/or conditions is that you have to deal with the ass pain of a check point, regardless of reason, to make sure that the people who operate on that road are following the rules how is that an issue or a violation of rights?

I dont see it. I see it as a way of enforcing rules.

The point about the "cops" coming into your house to check it without PC or a warrant is completely off the subject. There are rights in place that protect you from that. Such as the 4th Amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

Does the 4th apply to the check points? I would say to an extent, such as searching your vehicle without PC or a warrant:

In Michigan v. Sitz, the court effectively ignored the regulatory requirement of special needs searches in coming to their holding that DUI checkpoints fall under the special needs exception (the court also likened DUI checkpoints to airport and boarder checks without addressing that there is no other way for the interests protected by those checks to be advanced). Rather, the court merely recognized that there was a compelling government interest, and that DUI checkpoints were a means of advancing that interest.

In a later case, Indianapolis v. Edmond, the Supreme Court held that "narcotics checkpoints" were an unconstitutional violation of the 4th Amendment. While these checkpoints were identical to DUI checkpoints, except that police would also lead a drug dog around the motorists vehicle. The court refused to extend the special needs exception where the "primary purpose" is "to detect evidence of ordinary criminal wrongdoing."

Back to my original statement, dont drink and drive.

 

[SGaynor]

Well, of course, if the police are going to be in your house for a random hard drive search they will need to know if you have any guns in the house. It would only be prudent to check that the guns are safely stored (for the children's sake) and in safe operating condition (for your own safety's sake). We better also make sure that they were legally purchased and registered and that you are properly trained in their use (for the sake of society's safety). You know, this might take a while to determine all of this. The firearms should be stored at the police station until these myriad questions can be answered, for...you know, safety's sake.

In MI, you had to bring your handguns into the local PD for a "safety inspection" at which time they took down the serial number and gave you a "reciept." But it wasn't a gun registration at all....

 

[ptschram]

In MI, you had to bring your handguns into the local PD for a "safety inspection" at which time they took down the serial number and gave you a "reciept." But it wasn't a gun registration at all....

"Had" is the operative word. They also extended this regulation to anyone traveling through the state.

OTOH, Michigan does extend the same rights that a person's home state extends to them. I found this curious as it used to state in the hunting rules that folks from New Jersey were not allowed to hunt in Michigan unless they had been granted a license to own a gun in NJ-thus effectively disallowing anyone from NJ to hunt in Michigan.

 

[Blue]

Driving on a public road is a privilege, not a right.

In order to drive you have to follow rules, have a valid drivers license, etc.

If one of those rules and/or conditions is that you have to deal with the ass pain of a check point, regardless of reason, to make sure that the people who operate on that road are following the rules how is that an issue or a violation of rights?

I dont see it. I see it as a way of enforcing rules.

The point about the "cops" coming into your house to check it without PC or a warrant is completely off the subject. There are rights in place that protect you from that. Such as the 4th Amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

Does the 4th apply to the check points? I would say to an extent, such as searching your vehicle without PC or a warrant:

In Michigan v. Sitz, the court effectively ignored the regulatory requirement of special needs searches in coming to their holding that DUI checkpoints fall under the special needs exception (the court also likened DUI checkpoints to airport and boarder checks without addressing that there is no other way for the interests protected by those checks to be advanced). Rather, the court merely recognized that there was a compelling government interest, and that DUI checkpoints were a means of advancing that interest.

In a later case, Indianapolis v. Edmond, the Supreme Court held that "narcotics checkpoints" were an unconstitutional violation of the 4th Amendment. While these checkpoints were identical to DUI checkpoints, except that police would also lead a drug dog around the motorists vehicle. The court refused to extend the special needs exception where the "primary purpose" is "to detect evidence of ordinary criminal wrongdoing."

Back to my original statement, dont drink and drive.

Wow, that was a long response. Sounds like you have something to hide.....LOL

 

[ptschram]

I don't understand those who are so willing to allow the government to intrude into their lives without any evidence of wrongdoing.

To me, being an American is accepting the risk that my life is.

 

[jhmover]

Well, of course, if the police are going to be in your house for a random hard drive search they will need to know if you have any guns in the house. It would only be prudent to check that the guns are safely stored (for the children's sake) and in safe operating condition (for your own safety's sake). We better also make sure that they were legally purchased and registered and that you are properly trained in their use (for the sake of society's safety). You know, this might take a while to determine all of this. The firearms should be stored at the police station until these myriad questions can be answered, for...you know, safety's sake.

They'll also be inspecting your refrigerator and pantry to make sure you aren't feeding your children junk food and that you have a year's supply of chicken nuggets for the little bastards.

 

[Blue]

I don't understand those who are so willing to allow the government to intrude into their lives without any evidence of wrongdoing.

To me, being an American is accepting the risk that my life is.

You'd think that out here in AZ they would at least be able to verify that you're a legal US Citizen at a DUI checkpoint. But nooooo, that would be considered trampling on non-citizens' constitutional rights. Try making sense of that one....

 

[ptschram]

You'd think that out here in AZ they would at least be able to verify that you're a legal US Citizen at a DUI checkpoint. But nooooo, that would be considered trampling on non-citizens' constitutional rights. Try making sense of that one....

No reasonable suspicion of course! They can only check citizenship as an aside from the original offense for which the contact was initiated.

 

[GYM]

If you want drunks off the road how about offer the general public a finders fee of sort. Give $50 or $100 for every reported driver under the influence. If it turns out they were drunk, reward the the whistle blower some cash. Drunk drivers would disappear off the road...

This is not a good idea, and a very slippery slope.

It might be time to re-read Orwell's '1984'.