Loose Steering 2004 DII

Payson

Active member
Aug 14, 2017
35
2
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
I am batling a loose steering situation with My disco. Almost everything has been repalced.... Hubs, tie rods, pan hard rod, drag link, steering box, lower steering shaft, power steering pump, watts linkage. I have adjusted the tension on the box (maybe too much) but still have a loose steering situation. I have not repalced the ball joints, but don't feel any play in them either. The only thing I can think is the radius arm bushings. But they seem good with no play. any ideas?
The vehicle is a 2004 with maybe 2K on new hubs all the way around. Complete engine rebuild with top hat liners about the same time. This loose steering issue makes me think eitehr the ball joints or radius arm bushings or both, I just don't see any issues with them and can't pinpoint any play.....
 
I have a D1, she runs quiet straight. Sometimes i could sleep, tat she could make the correct way. My 2004 D2 instead, she wants go to the right or to the left. I checked all components for play, and adjusted may be too much the box, but finally concluded she doesnt want go straight, no smallet play changes this situation.

So no idea but may be my trouble is near the same yours

Regards
 

DarylJ

Well-known member
Apr 3, 2011
440
24
Doylestown, PA
I have a D1, she runs quiet straight. Sometimes i could sleep, tat she could make the correct way. My 2004 D2 instead, she wants go to the right or to the left. I checked all components for play, and adjusted may be too much the box, but finally concluded she doesnt want go straight, no smallet play changes this situation.

So no idea but may be my trouble is near the same yours

Regards
That sounds like a toe issue. Has the alignment been checked? If you're not toed in 1/16" or so (front of front wheel pointing towards each other) it can have some alarming steering behavior depending on how far it's out - following the crown in the road, tramming, steering not self centering after a turn, etc.
 
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4Runner

Well-known member
May 24, 2007
663
111
Boise Idaho
In addition to the alignment, how’s your rear axle doing. If that is shifting around you will have to make steering corrections. I also have that problem a little but haven’t looked too far into it yet. I have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Lol
 
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Payson

Active member
Aug 14, 2017
35
2
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
That sounds like a toe issue. Has the alignment been checked? If you're not toed in 1/16" or so (front of front wheel pointing towards each other) it can have some alarming steering behavior depending on how far it's out - following the crown in the road, tramming, steering not self centering after a turn, etc.
Thank you, I have not checked that recently..... I will pursue it.
 

Payson

Active member
Aug 14, 2017
35
2
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
In addition to the alignment, how’s your rear axle doing. If that is shifting around you will have to make steering corrections. I also have that problem a little but haven’t looked too far into it yet. I have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Lol
The next item on my list are the trailing arm bushings, this might be the issue. The only way I know how to check is to have someone push on the body and watch for movement at the trailing arms. Any other way?
 

4Runner

Well-known member
May 24, 2007
663
111
Boise Idaho
The next item on my list are the trailing arm bushings, this might be the issue. The only way I know how to check is to have someone push on the body and watch for movement at the trailing arms. Any other way?
Could be the bushings but also the watts linkage set up that keeps your rear axle centered. There isn’t a great way that I have found. Sometimes a pry bar in the right spot. People pushing on it sideways in places that won’t dent. Sometimes you just have to pull it and look for yourself. Good luck.
 
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terryjm1

Well-known member
Jan 23, 2011
1,496
381
This is sort of related. The first D1 I had I installed new springs (2 inch lift), shocks, and did some other front end work. I couldn’t license it in the city I lived at the time because I also did a 300tdi R380 swap. The plan was to do all the work and flat tow it 1100 miles to our other place where no emissions inspections were required for licensing.

Previously, when I did suspension work I would get the alignment close enough to drive to an alignment shop.

On this one I put extra effort into getting the alignment as straight as possible as I didn’t want to cause excess wear on the new tires by towing it 1100 miles out of alignment.

Well, my “eyeball” alignment was too straight, not enough toe or perhaps none at all. When it reached 65 mph it would
”fishtail” a frightening amount. I kept it under 60 mph for about 100 miles and decided it just wasn’t going to work. The only tools I had with me were wrenches to reconnect the driveshaft so I could drive it into my shop at my destination. I pulled into a truck stop, disconnected the tow bar, and reconnected the driveshafts. I then drove it the rest of the way and my wife drove the tow vehicle.

Previously, with the new 300tdi and 5 speed, it hadn’t done more than short trips around the block. Fortunately, it ran quite well the whole trip and I had no problems on its initial 1000 mile run. However, the steering tracked in whatever direction the steering wheel was turned with no return to center.

So, to make a long story short, proper toe is rather important. All that being said, I learned a lot about alignment adjustment after that. As I probably only put a few thousand miles on the D1 each year, I now do alignments entirely myself. My thought was the tires will age out well before they wear out even if the alignment isn’t perfect. I measure carefully and make adjustments based on how it steers. The last one only took a couple test drives and adjustments to get it steering properly and the steering wheel centered. I have now put about 12,000 miles on my first “hand” alignment. I can’t see any difference in tire wear and it steers just as it should.

Conventional wisdom would say I put a lot of time in to save $100 on a shop alignment. But, considering the local alignment shop is a 45 minute drive in each direction plus the 90 ish minutes at the shop, I am ok with the trade off.

I recently installed a new steering gearbox in another one. It steers as tight as a new car. On that note, on a D1 you can’t really adjust the gearbox tighter properly by just turning the screw on top of the box. There are three adjustments and two of them require disassembly of the gearbox. Adjusting only the top will make it harder to turn, masking the problem temporarily. If your gearbox is loose, it’s time for a refurb. On that note, there is a Defender guy that rebuilds them. It has become hard to get a rebuilt box otherwise.
 
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Payson

Active member
Aug 14, 2017
35
2
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
Could be the bushings but also the watts linkage set up that keeps your rear axle centered. There isn’t a great way that I have found. Sometimes a pry bar in the right spot. People pushing on it sideways in places that won’t dent. Sometimes you just have to pull it and look for yourself. Good luck.
I've replaced the watts link and checked the bushings, they look good. Thanks for the feedback!
 
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This is sort of related. The first D1 I had I installed new springs (2 inch lift), shocks, and did some other front end work. I couldn’t license it in the city I lived at the time because I also did a 300tdi R380 swap. The plan was to do all the work and flat tow it 1100 miles to our other place where no emissions inspections were required for licensing.

Previously, when I did suspension work I would get the alignment close enough to drive to an alignment shop.

On this one I put extra effort into getting the alignment as straight as possible as I didn’t want to cause excess wear on the new tires by towing it 1100 miles out of alignment.

Well, my “eyeball” alignment was too straight, not enough toe or perhaps none at all. When it reached 65 mph it would
”fishtail” a frightening amount. I kept it under 60 mph for about 100 miles and decided it just wasn’t going to work. The only tools I had with me were wrenches to reconnect the driveshaft so I could drive it into my shop at my destination. I pulled into a truck stop, disconnected the tow bar, and reconnected the driveshafts. I then drove it the rest of the way and my wife drove the tow vehicle.

Previously, with the new 300tdi and 5 speed, it hadn’t done more than short trips around the block. Fortunately, it ran quite well the whole trip and I had no problems on its initial 1000 mile run. However, the steering tracked in whatever direction the steering wheel was turned with no return to center.

So, to make a long story short, proper toe is rather important. All that being said, I learned a lot about alignment adjustment after that. As I probably only put a few thousand miles on the D1 each year, I now do alignments entirely myself. My thought was the tires will age out well before they wear out even if the alignment isn’t perfect. I measure carefully and make adjustments based on how it steers. The last one only took a couple test drives and adjustments to get it steering properly and the steering wheel centered. I have now put about 12,000 miles on my first “hand” alignment. I can’t see any difference in tire wear and it steers just as it should.

Conventional wisdom would say I put a lot of time in to save $100 on a shop alignment. But, considering the local alignment shop is a 45 minute drive in each direction plus the 90 ish minutes at the shop, I am ok with the trade off.

I recently installed a new steering gearbox in another one. It steers as tight as a new car. On that note, on a D1 you can’t really adjust the gearbox tighter properly by just turning the screw on top of the box. There are three adjustments and two of them require disassembly of the gearbox. Adjusting only the top will make it harder to turn, masking the problem temporarily. If your gearbox is loose, it’s time for a refurb. On that note, there is a Defender guy that rebuilds them. It has become hard to get a rebuilt box otherwise.
I'm doing alignments myself too. I discovered that most alignment shops used pick-up truck data (part time front traction) to align Land Rovers (permanent front traction). They put closed toe position instead of parallell-to-open, then after this work , usually start our trouble...
I use a laser pointer to check alignment between axes and to measure toe angle.

Regards
 
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DarylJ

Well-known member
Apr 3, 2011
440
24
Doylestown, PA
I'm doing alignments myself too. I discovered that most alignment shops used pick-up truck data (part time front traction) to align Land Rovers (permanent front traction). They put closed toe position instead of parallell-to-open, then after this work , usually start our trouble...
I use a laser pointer to check alignment between axes and to measure toe angle.

Regards
What kind of shops do you have where they aren't using a rack that tells them exactly what stock alignment numbers should be based on the exact make/model/year/trim level of the vehicle? I haven't seen anything made in a very long time that doesn't do this and I've never seen one that had incorrect data.

If they're just winging it on a manual rack or not bothering to put in the vehicle data that's a shop you don't want to go to.
 
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terryjm1

Well-known member
Jan 23, 2011
1,496
381
What kind of shops do you have where they aren't using a rack that tells them exactly what stock alignment numbers should be based on the exact make/model/year/trim level of the vehicle? I haven't seen anything made in a very long time that doesn't do this and I've never seen one that had incorrect data.

If they're just winging it on a manual rack or not bothering to put in the vehicle data that's a shop you don't want to go to.
Maybe it’s not so standardized in Argentina. There was a shop in my old city of residence that just used an old school alignment “table” and on my old simple vehicles, like a D1, they always steered straight and the tires wore evenly. A modern alignment rack is definitely a better way but on our old school D1s with very limited adjustment possible, I’d be fine with the old way. Did I mention I also mount and balance my D1 tires myself with hand tire tools? I also use a bubble balancer. The fastest I have gone in a D1 is 75 mph and there is no discernible issue with the balancing. As far as mounting and balancing, I did it once on my wife’s car with somewhat low profile tires. Never again!! I almost gave up. It is so much harder to mount lower profile tires it is worth every penny to take it to the tire shop and let them do it. 245/75 or 235/85/16s are super easy though. Dismounting is crazy easy.
 
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DarylJ

Well-known member
Apr 3, 2011
440
24
Doylestown, PA
Yeah, manual racks basically don't exist anymore in the bulk of the US. At least not in retail shops.

It would be a waste of space and a huge insurance liability. Every viable shop is in a upgrade cycle to be able to handle the various ADAS systems out there that require reprogramming with targets or on a live drive cycle after an alignment, windshield replacement, or various other types of work.
 
Dear DaryU, dont worry, there are here modern alignment racks, with receipts from all makes and models, but when after professional service I discovered things didnt go fine, checked this data receipts with the machine operator and the secret was, data is not corresponding with our old measure data in proper workshop manual. And there is info to adjust our-non adjustable parameters too. Then, in similar way with ECU test equipment, i found that technicians are trained to operate this kind of equipment, but they dont know what they are doing. Then, its far easier for me to check things myself, and not argue with people that doesn't understand what I want.
Land Rover just doesnt exist here, then technical data, different models information is only provided by enthusiasts
Regards
 
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