MANTEC is no more

jim-00-4.6

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2005
2,037
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Genesee, CO USA
... when you can get a cheap truck at the height of engineering

discostew said:
It had sticking valves, a wicked bad leaking rear main, and a tire that would shake for the first few miles then smooth out.

I'm having a bit of a time reconciling these 2 statements.
I mean, as long as we take that to assume "height of engineering" for a BRITISH CAR.
These are the same people who brought us Lucas Electrics for how long?:rofl:
Land Rover didn't figure out what a gasket was for until they were purchased by Ford.
 

wjsj69

Active member
Oct 11, 2017
26
8
Delaware Co. PA
Good points, LR has yet to engineer anything to perfection, if they did, engineers would be out of a job; these days engineers/designers redesign things for better or worse, just to sell something "new" and have job security. They don't care about failures beyond a 3 year warranty. My reference was for 4wd tech., running gear, overall good platform for utility. Does anyone think more, light weight moving parts (independent suspensions), unibody const., less ground clearance and larger wheels (smaller tires) are improvements in 4wd technology?? More comfy to get to the Mall in the rain/snow, but for a utility vehicle? I think not..
 

garrett

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2004
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Good points, LR has yet to engineer anything to perfection, if they did, engineers would be out of a job; these days engineers/designers redesign things for better or worse, just to sell something "new" and have job security. They don't care about failures beyond a 3 year warranty. My reference was for 4wd tech., running gear, overall good platform for utility. Does anyone think more, light weight moving parts (independent suspensions), unibody const., less ground clearance and larger wheels (smaller tires) are improvements in 4wd technology?? More comfy to get to the Mall in the rain/snow, but for a utility vehicle? I think not..

Those are some broad and incorrect statements there junior. Redesigning for job security? That's just a stupid statement. Those silly airbags, crumple zones, ABS, stability control, fuel efficiency and countless other engineering improvements are just that - improvements on modern vehicles. Engineers design based on the needs of their specific market, federal safety and environmental requirements/standards, etc. It's like saying that big, heavy 1965 Chevy is safer than a new Kia because it's bigger and has all that steel.

You also need to understand who the Land Rover brand are being sold to and whom they are marketing. They aren't marketing to you. They are marketing to that bi-curious (well maybe you are) fella that owns a glider and a bevy of Snow Peak clothing and "camping" gear. You think that guy sporting the man purse is going to Rausch Creek or even some trails in GW National Forest? Of course not. He's going to Philips house in Soho to bang him out while they watch 'Six Feet Under' on Netflix and drink prosecco. Car companies want to sell what their customers want and that's what Land Rover is doing - and everyone else. Other companies will fill the voids they have left - like Jeep, Toyota, etc. The current Jeep Rubicon off the factory floor is far more capable in just about every way than any Jeep ever produced. I'd say that's pretty good engineering to me.
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
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Bristol, TN
Those are some broad and incorrect statements there junior. Redesigning for job security? That's just a stupid statement. Those silly airbags, crumple zones, ABS, stability control, fuel efficiency and countless other engineering improvements are just that - improvements on modern vehicles. Engineers design based on the needs of their specific market, federal safety and environmental requirements/standards, etc. It's like saying that big, heavy 1965 Chevy is safer than a new Kia because it's bigger and has all that steel.

You also need to understand who the Land Rover brand are being sold to and whom they are marketing. They aren't marketing to you. They are marketing to that bi-curious (well maybe you are) fella that owns a glider and a bevy of Snow Peak clothing and "camping" gear. You think that guy sporting the man purse is going to Rausch Creek or even some trails in GW National Forest? Of course not. He's going to Philips house in Soho to bang him out while they watch 'Six Feet Under' on Netflix and drink prosecco. Car companies want to sell what their customers want and that's what Land Rover is doing - and everyone else. Other companies will fill the voids they have left - like Jeep, Toyota, etc. The current Jeep Rubicon off the factory floor is far more capable in just about every way than any Jeep ever produced. I'd say that's pretty good engineering to me.

All good points, but I'm stunned by the level of bi-curious knowledge you posses...

that "Six Feet Under" reference, though, was a great touch. Bravo.:applause:
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
Moreover, to Garrett's point: LR is making a killing with their current lineup, i.e. the best the company has ever done.

Enthusiasts aren't even a rounding error in their calculus.
 

wjsj69

Active member
Oct 11, 2017
26
8
Delaware Co. PA
Those are some broad and incorrect statements there junior. Redesigning for job security? That's just a stupid statement. Those silly airbags, crumple zones, ABS, stability control, fuel efficiency and countless other engineering improvements are just that - improvements on modern vehicles. Engineers design based on the needs of their specific market, federal safety and environmental requirements/standards, etc. It's like saying that big, heavy 1965 Chevy is safer than a new Kia because it's bigger and has all that steel.

You also need to understand who the Land Rover brand are being sold to and whom they are marketing.

Broad? Yes; that's how you get attention. Incorrect? While speaking broadly; no. The Wrangler (CJ and so on) and Defender were built for utility. That's why they lasted so long with minimal change in basic design. How much engineering work has been done with either since inception compared to everything else? All they had to do was throw on some disc brakes, ABS, new engine/trans that were already on other vehicles. That's what's great about them; multipurpose, adaptive by the user, -unnecessary to redesign. Just tweak efficiency now and then. The Rubicon just has lockers and sway disconnects that people have been adding themselves, for years.
Obviously, cars are way better than ever. And we agree on who LR's are marketed to. It just sucks that they're abandoning what made them great by making a bunch of fluff mobiles that are only slightly different from each other. If the new Defender is just another of the same, that leaves the wrangler as the only thing in this country that offers basic utility, even tho it also is over priced and over equipped.
Why can't we get something that has the best drive train option, where you don't also have to purchase the up-sell luxury options? Don't get me wrong, I understand that it is a consumer economy which needs to sustain itself. I'm just frustrated with the lack of offerings of basic, reasonably priced, simple utility, and the over abundance of over engineered, over optioned, "fluff" that I just don't need. Best example aside of Defender until this year: (see pic) Why can't we get that here??
 

ERover82

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2011
3,918
458
Darien Gap
Someone needs to call Mercedes and Jeep and let them know that investing the next decade in new boxy utilitarian models is a mistake.

Next-gen G-wagen next to old
Mercedes-G-00.jpg



Next-gen Jeep Wrangler
JP018_043WRfejenssl15sdifb1noir03rrpf-1-626x382.jpg
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
Fast food chains are making a killing too.

I think your point may point towards quality in some form or fashion, but to draw it out the comparison actually highlights what I meant.

From 2011-2016 JLR's sales increased 125%

Same timeframe fast food's sales were incremental; i.e. ~5% growth (and that could be attributed as much to population growth as anything).

So if you were JLR and you looked at where you were going to make a profit-why change what you are doing?
 

ERover82

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2011
3,918
458
Darien Gap
The point is integrity vs profit. If LR abandons their heritage, they will cease to offer a unique product, and I believe it will be their undoing after they reach saturation in the mainstream market.
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
You may be right, but unlike Jeep which offers a great utilitarian product that is basically an alternative mid-life crisis mobile in every neighborhood, LR still seems to do things with their products as illustration of capabilities; while the CT & even the G4 are long gone they're still doing the TAT, Drive around the World, GDE again, etc.

Do they need to reinvest in a utility platform? Probably; I'll be interested to see how the D5 works out-but I was also very skeptical of the D3 & D4 platforms and those I'd say are indicative of a sweet spot LR can hit where it provides function and form.

The demise of the Defender is unfortunate, but also somewhat inevitable.

There is def a niche market for simple, robust vehicles-but I wonder if it will be more serviced via boutique providers reconditioning older classic vehicles since modern industry standards make it very hard to replicate that at least for the North American market.
 

garrett

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2004
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Middleburg, VA
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Broad? Yes; that's how you get attention. Incorrect? While speaking broadly; no. The Wrangler (CJ and so on) and Defender were built for utility. That's why they lasted so long with minimal change in basic design. How much engineering work has been done with either since inception compared to everything else? All they had to do was throw on some disc brakes, ABS, new engine/trans that were already on other vehicles. That's what's great about them; multipurpose, adaptive by the user, -unnecessary to redesign. Just tweak efficiency now and then. The Rubicon just has lockers and sway disconnects that people have been adding themselves, for years.
Obviously, cars are way better than ever. And we agree on who LR's are marketed to. It just sucks that they're abandoning what made them great by making a bunch of fluff mobiles that are only slightly different from each other. If the new Defender is just another of the same, that leaves the wrangler as the only thing in this country that offers basic utility, even tho it also is over priced and over equipped.
Why can't we get something that has the best drive train option, where you don't also have to purchase the up-sell luxury options? Don't get me wrong, I understand that it is a consumer economy which needs to sustain itself. I'm just frustrated with the lack of offerings of basic, reasonably priced, simple utility, and the over abundance of over engineered, over optioned, "fluff" that I just don't need. Best example aside of Defender until this year: (see pic) Why can't we get that here??

A Toyota LZJ70 series wouldn't do well here. These are vehicles that excel in places around the world that have little in terms of road infrastructure. They are "cool", but not practical for US highways and everyday use for American's that are use to some basic luxuries. Places where roads go from passable to unpassable in a matter of hours in certain weather conditions is where those vehicles are their best. Not to mention as you've mentioned they have not changed much and parts are available in every corner of the world. None of them have to comply with US safety and emissions standards of course. I drove a 2009 Hilux for a few years as my DD. I even drove it across the country from VA - MT, WY, Banff, etc. I'd rather of been in the Tacoma, but the mileage in the Hilux was pretty solid considering I was pushing the speeds.

A very small percentage of people would actually buy a Hilux, 79 series, etc. Toyota is smart enough to know what would be worth it, etc I am certain. They didn't get to where they are by making poor economic decisions. If I had a dollar each time someone said, "Oh did you hear the Hilux is going to be imported to the US this year."..........

Jeep has done a great job of making changes along the way with their Wrangler/Rubicon, but keeping it the most capable platform in the US from the factory. It's far from low tech. They also do an excellent job of keeping themselves relevant in the community - participating and sponsoring off-road events around the county. What has Land Rover done to keep themselves relevant? Sponsor horse events and have commercials with a few dudes and a glider or better yet some chick crossing a river with sled dogs. FML. Clearly that's not part of their marketing any longer as they are doing quite well selling luxury cars destined for valet parking and the tennis club.

You know what those 79 series Toyota's cost? The truck platforms start around $65K. That's a bit more than a Rubicon.
 

garrett

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Jun 18, 2004
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Where did you get that? Single-cab workman starts at 62,490 AUD which is currently 46,888 USD.

Yota site, but I was looking at double cabs. When I have been down to South America, it was crazy to see what they were paying. Import taxes are crazy high in some places and Bolivia doesn't allow diesels in non-commercial form.

There is a guy bringing in the double cabs to the US. They will be over $100K when he's all said and done I am sure. That is if it ever happens. It's not terribly hard to bring them in on waivers, but it's being able to keep them for very long.

But even at $50K for a 2 door, that's a good chunk more than a Rubicon. I'd rather have a 79 though.
 

Howski

Well-known member
Oct 19, 2009
1,493
211
Alabama
"If"? They are a lifestyle brand. Not unlike SnowPeak. hah. There is little, if any, "utility" in the LR brand.

A commercial with some clips of old Rovers, a reference to 'heritage' and their newest generic offering splashing through a puddle is enough to sell the 'lifestyle' to the crowd Rover is targeting. I'd guess a small portion of this audience could care less if they ever have to use low range (of if their Rover is even fitted with it)
 

garrett

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Jun 18, 2004
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A commercial with some clips of old Rovers, a reference to 'heritage' and their newest generic offering splashing through a puddle is enough to sell the 'lifestyle' to the crowd Rover is targeting. I'd guess a small portion of this audience could care less if they ever have to use low range (of if their Rover is even fitted with it)

I'm guessing a vast majority don't even know what low range even is/means.

I use to rarely work with the general public in driver training, but now I work for DSS in providing the FACT classes - Foreign Affairs Counter Threat. Mostly NGOs/public/civilians. It's painful to see what little VERY basic vehicle knowledge these folks have.
 

jim-00-4.6

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2005
2,037
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61
Genesee, CO USA
A commercial with some clips of old Rovers, a reference to 'heritage' and their newest generic offering splashing through a puddle is enough to sell the 'lifestyle' to the crowd Rover is targeting. I'd guess a small portion of this audience could care less if they ever have to use low range (of if their Rover is even fitted with it)
When I got a vehicle for my wife, I didn't bother getting the version with low range.
Her vehicle will NEVER go off-road.
Same with my daughter's vehicle.
My son's vehicle has low range, because it was MY car before it was his.
My vehicle has low range, because, as soon as I can afford some Snow Peak gear & fancy buckets, I'm going camping again.