Newtown, Conn.

[bri]

1) if the guns weren't his, find out who the owner is, question them, and if they were stolen when were they noticed being stolen and when did you file the stolen property report. If you didn't know they were stolen until after the fact, speak with your attorney.

2) when my neighbor starts owning more than 20 firearms and isn't registered as a collector I think I have the right to know I may be living next to someone that may potentially use his 'collection' when the voice in his head says 'fuckit, it's time to take some people out'. Similar to putting a sign in the yard of a known sex offender. Lets be honest here, collecting old lp's is a bit different than collecting weapons.

3) on notice means, if local residents go to their local officials and collectively agree that owning an arsenal should be grounds for making it known that certain people have enough weapons to arm a small army. No different to having to register your pet with local officials. http://www.worcesterma.gov/uploads/c7/25/c725f7a60175a9934c0ebbd6888b991d/pit-bull-ordinance.pdf

4) for me an arsenal wouldn't be owning a variety of collectible type weapons, but when you have enough weapons and ordnance that you could arm 20 or thirty people effectively I.e. semi automatic weapons, samurai swords, and more ammunition than the local gun shop that would be a pretty good arsenal.

I hope that someday you realize what you are saying is so more more scarey than my chainsaw anology, which was a point made against gun control.

So far they are saying that the guns are not his they are his mothers, he stole them. I am not sure that I am going to believe much of what is said in this particular media fiasco without real substantiation.

I would think that a lot of hunters have 20 guns and that they don't consider them an arsenal. Having someone put on notice (publicly available record on their fire arms) would not benefit anyone other than the loony that lives next door that might wish to get his hands on some. Or the gov't when they wish to disarm you.

I know a few people that collect weapons and never use them. I only know one person that collects LPs.

The event that you attempt to avoid or eliminate by your "put on notice" idea is unlikely to happen. Aurora CO, did not have > 20 weapons. This guy stole them. Loopholes with metal patients like the VA shooting have been closed. Columbine were illegally acquired.

Does it make sense or provide some benefit to the general public to put law abiding citizens with the ability to own a firearm "on notice"? No freaking way. There is no statistic or other logic where I can see that this would benefit other law abiding citizens. I do see how it would enable law breakers and whack jobs.

I assume that everyone has as many fire arms as they can afford. Its their right. I assume that they are next door.

A lot different than registering a pet.

Registering a pet, especially a really powerful one like a pitbull (which is the pet that your doc refers to) is so much different then a firearm.

You can leave a firearm on your counter and regardless of what happens, it will never kill someone. A person is in complete control of a firearm at all times. You are never in complete control of a pet, ever. If you have ever owned a guard dog, aggressive or overly scared/defensive dog you will know what I mean. When handling a gun, I am in 100% control. When I handle my dog, I I am never in control.

:: EDIT:: What you gonna do if you know your neighbor has 21 guns. Again strange logic. I'd rather know my neighbor was mentally ill.

 

[p m]

:: EDIT:: What you gonna do if you know your neighbor has 21 guns. Again strange logic. I'd rather know my neighbor was mentally ill.

Now imagine what a nutjob one has to be to own not one, but multiple Land Rovers.
I think one of my ex-neighbors tried to make this argument.

 

[kennith]

2) when my neighbor starts owning more than 20 firearms and isn't registered as a collector I think I have the right to know I may be living next to someone that may potentially use his 'collection' when the voice in his head says 'fuckit, it's time to take some people out'. Similar to putting a sign in the yard of a known sex offender. Lets be honest here, collecting old lp's is a bit different than collecting weapons.

4) for me an arsenal wouldn't be owning a variety of collectible type weapons, but when you have enough weapons and ordnance that you could arm 20 or thirty people effectively I.e. semi automatic weapons, samurai swords, and more ammunition than the local gun shop that would be a pretty good arsenal.

...Looks like I've been naughty.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[RBBailey]

seventyfive -- what is the logical and clinical connection between owning 20 firearms, and hearing voices in one's head? I'd like to read that literature if you could link it up.

 

[Eliot]

There's a negative correlation between gun ownership and violent crime. How many times does that need to be repeated?

If you are surprised by [our] finding, so [are we]. [We] did
not begin this research with any intent to “exonerate” hand‐
guns, but there it is—a negative finding, to be sure, but a nega‐
tive finding is nevertheless a positive contribution. It directs us
where not to aim public health resources.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

 

[ptschram]

Now imagine what a nutjob one has to be to own not one, but multiple Land Rovers.
I think one of my ex-neighbors tried to make this argument.

Bravo!

 

[noee]

Here's another one to ponder:

Do you really believe that "we" can stop stupid/bad people from doing stupid/bad things? Seriously, what kind of ever-so-slightly neurotic delusion does it take to believe this tripe? Anyone who is selling this BS deserves to have their motives and mental state examined closely.

 

[Axel]

Here's another one to ponder:

Do you really believe that "we" can stop stupid/bad people from doing stupid/bad things? Seriously, what kind of ever-so-slightly neurotic delusion does it take to believe this tripe? Anyone who is selling this BS deserves to have their motives and mental state examined closely.

Seriously, no. I don't believe we can. But we can -and should - make it harder for them. And we need to do that without going on a witch hunt. There is no one-size-fits-all answer, but we can look at little things. For example, according to some media reports, the shooter forced his way into the Newtown school. If that is the case, it is probably possible to implement something to make it a little harder for the next nutjob. Bullet proof glass or stronger doors, maybe. That's the kind of things that needs to be looked at, not gun control, religion or video games.

Of course discussing minutia which can actually have an effect isn't as sexy and does not get as much attention as introducing a sweeping new gun control bill - especially for many politicians in front of a camera who needs to look like they are doing something 'for the children' in order to win their next election. But I digress.

 

[noee]

Axel: I agree, prudence and practicality, of which, little will be seen from the influence peddlers, unfortunately.

Here is an interesting "study" I stumbled across from another site. Widener, you might find some interesting conclusions, though it's just one study....

 

[Durt D1ver]

I don't know if its been said already, but one major issue is that due to medical privacy laws, like HIPAA, mental health professionals cannot/don't notify NICS, state, or local police agencies when they encounter someone who they feel shouldn't have access to firearms. Which doesn't really apply to this event, because they weren't his weapons.

 

[D Chapman]

Seriously, no. I don't believe we can. But we can -and should - make it harder for them. And we need to do that without going on a witch hunt. There is no one-size-fits-all answer, but we can look at little things. For example, according to some media reports, the shooter forced his way into the Newtown school. If that is the case, is is probably possible to implement something to make it a little harder for the next nutjob. Bullet proof glass or stronger doors, maybe. That's the kind of things that needs to be looked at, not gun control, religion or video games.

Of course discussing minutia which can actually have an effect isn't as sexy and does not get as much attention as introducing a sweeping new gun control bill - especially for many politicians in front of a camera who needs to look like they are doing something 'for the children' in order to win their next election. But I digress.

What you're not going to hear on the Media or from the Presidents mouth is, not long ago the President AND Congress allowed a bill to expire that gave $800M to school for such things as School Resource Officers.

We had a School Resource Officer in my high school 15 years ago. I can't remember if he was armed, though. I don't think he was most of the time. But I'm sure there was a gun locked in his police cruiser. If not, there should have been.

Shit, at my high school there were probably more guns in the students cars in the parking lot than in the Sheriffs Department arsenal. I always had a gun at school it seems. Lots of my friends did, too. It was certainly against school policy to have guns on school property, but at my high school it was an overlooked rule. In fact, one of our local state delegates tried to get a Bill passed to allow students to have guns in their vehicles on school property during hunting season. It was struck down...

 

[brian4d]

This is extremely disturbing, such disregard for <young> life brings back memories from 9/11. I heard a report many children were assassinated in their safe rooms being shot at close range. This is just a report I heard. Don't forget the Norway murders where the kids were literally hunted down. My thoughts and prayers are with the families.

 

[emmodg]

I'm gonna catch hell for this but I just want to put myself in the shoes of those that think media and weapons availability plays a part in our new era of violence. Again, this is just a "thought exercise" - I AM NOT espousing or condoning this theory.

We have ALWAYS had "nut jobs", whackos", and "crazy people" - it's a fact of life. I went to school with a kid who shot a boy in the back of his head in his basement for messing up his record collection!

I'm wondering this - If we look back through time - the 20's, 30's, 40's, all the way to present time - can we attach some kind of social evolution, new technology, acceptance of new "norms" to our latest and most violent batch of killers? What kind of effect do games like Halo, Modern Warfare and Grand Theft Auto have upon the "loner" or "weirdo"? Let's take this same kid and give him movies like "Way of the Gun" (great flick!), Zero Dark Thirty, The Punisher, Black Hawk Down, The Professional, etc.. Now let's give this nut job an airsoft gun that looks like a SPAS, MP5, Sig, or AR (Remember he's seen all of the movies that have these weapons in them. Now he's 13 or 14 and gets to see all the cool shit on TV from our wars in Assghanistan and Iraq - he goes to Barnes and Noble and pics up an issue of "Recoil" magazine or "Tactical Operator" (saw that one yesterday) and sees a bunch of cool bad ass dudes all dressed up in tac gear - festooned with weapons and velcro patches with skulls and shit. Now our "loner" is driving a car. He's going to see movies on his own, he doesn't need mom and dad to get him in to his favorite kinds of movies. He's on AR15.com, all the cool tac blogs, OPSGEAR, etc.. He's checking out all the video on youtube of fire fights and people shooting various crew-serve weapons. He's downloading "Let The Bodies Hit the Floor" by Drowning Pool and "Psychosocial" and "People=Shit" by Slipknot. He has few friends, he spends his day in school putting up with the "normal" kids. His parents send him to different doctors and he's been on 3 different medications since 3rd grade... In 1954 would this same kid be as "effective" and deadly at hurting people when he finally snapped?

Again - please don't think I'm espousing banning all the above media and weapons. I'm just wondering what role if any a society plays in the "less-than-balanced" of us.

 

[brian4d]

I'm gonna catch hell for this but I just want to put myself in the shoes of those that think media and weapons availability plays a part in our new era of violence. Again, this is just a "thought exercise" - I AM NOT espousing or condoning this theory.

We have ALWAYS had "nut jobs", whackos", and "crazy people" - it's a fact of life. I went to school with a kid who shot a boy in the back of his head in his basement for messing up his record collection!

I'm wondering this - If we look back through time - the 20's, 30's, 40's, all the way to present time - can we attach some kind of social evolution, new technology, acceptance of new "norms" to our latest and most violent batch of killers? What kind of effect do games like Halo, Modern Warfare and Grand Theft Auto have upon the "loner" or "weirdo"? Let's take this same kid and give him movies like "Way of the Gun" (great flick!), Zero Dark Thirty, The Punisher, Black Hawk Down, The Professional, etc.. Now let's give this nut job an airsoft gun that looks like a SPAS, MP5, Sig, or AR (Remember he's seen all of the movies that have these weapons in them. Now he's 13 or 14 and gets to see all the cool shit on TV from our wars in Assghanistan and Iraq - he goes to Barnes and Noble and pics up an issue of "Recoil" magazine or "Tactical Operator" (saw that one yesterday) and sees a bunch of cool bad ass dudes all dressed up in tac gear - festooned with weapons and velcro patches with skulls and shit. Now our "loner" is driving a car. He's going to see movies on his own, he doesn't need mom and dad to get him in to his favorite kinds of movies. He's on AR15.com, all the cool tac blogs, OPSGEAR, etc.. He's checking out all the video on youtube of fire fights and people shooting various crew-serve weapons. He's downloading "Let The Bodies Hit the Floor" by Drowning Pool and "Psychosocial" and "People=Shit" by Slipknot. He has few friends, he spends his day in school putting up with the "normal" kids. His parents send him to different doctors and he's been on 3 different medications since 3rd grade... In 1954 would this same kid be as "effective" and deadly at hurting people when he finally snapped?

Again - please don't think I'm espousing banning all the above media and weapons. I'm just wondering what role if any a society plays in the "less-than-balanced" of us.

The Point I'm seeing here is much more electronic communication. You can argue that if he's gathering information from Boards, forums, videos and blogs there are just as many offering safe, normal thinking advice and conversation opposed to the 'wack-o', 'out of their mind' thinking. Let's boil it down. In my mind this is simply the difference between right and wrong. Should we try to even dig deeper?

 

[emmodg]

The Point I'm seeing here is much more electronic communication. You can argue that if he's gathering information from Boards, forums, videos and blogs there are just as many offering safe, normal thinking advice and conversation opposed to the 'wack-o', 'out of their mind' thinking. Let's boil it down. In my mind this is simply the difference between right and wrong. Should we try to even dig deeper?

Does the "loner", "whacko", "nut-job" etc search for the "...safe, normal thinking advice and conversation..."?
I'm guessing not. You and I, I surmise, aren't the ones society fears to be the "mass shooting type". I'm not worried about you, or I, or Mike - it's the "nut-job" everyone's talking about that scares me.

The kid in my high school that shot the other kid in the back of the head in the basement is the kind that worries me. That was in 1986. I'm merely asking how much more "effective" would he been had he known what an M4 was, what Magpul makes, how you change weapons in Modern Warfare, etc. What would someone like him be able to commit after watching the tactics in Way of the Gun (move/moving tactics, peals, CQB, ect). Again, I fucking love all of my semi-autos, I love Way of the Gun, I have a Slipknot CD and many from Tool, I have 1st person shooter games but I know right from wrong - I don't take 3 meds, I made a lot of friends in school, I never was the loner. Something has changed and we can't deny it. I don't know what the answer is but I sure as hell know we need to lay it ALL on the table.

 

[brian4d]

Does the "loner", "whacko", "nut-job" etc search for the "...safe, normal thinking advice and conversation..."?
I'm guessing not. You and I, I surmise, aren't the ones society fears to be the "mass shooting type". I'm not worried about you, or I, or Mike - it's the "nut-job" everyone's talking about that scares me.

The kid in my high school that shot the other kid in the back of the head in the basement is the kind that worries me. That was in 1986. I'm merely asking how much more "effective" would he been had he known what an M4 was, what Magpul makes, how you change weapons in Modern Warfare, etc. What would someone like him be able to commit after watching the tactics in Way of the Gun (move/moving tactics, peals, CQB, ect). Again, I fucking love all of my semi-autos, I love Way of the Gun, I have a Slipknot CD and many from Tool, I have 1st person shooter games but I know right from wrong - I don't take 3 meds, I made a lot of friends in school, I never was the loner. Something has changed and we can't deny it. I don't know what the answer is but I sure as hell know we need to lay it ALL on the table.

I hate to be a simpleton but here we go. Could it just be the population has grown and we're producing more of the 1 of 1000 wack-o's now? Could it be just that simple?

 

[noee]

Symptom, not root cause is how I see it. Like so-called "income inequality", again a symptom of a larger, more complex problem.

I see it my kid (as many do), undirected emotion, undirected wonder....undirected everything. Part of our job as parents is to offer some direction in context.

Vectorized emotion = passion
Vectorized wonder = sacred reverence

IMO, our parental/societal guidance/direction has/is failed. Call it losing "god" (who or whatever your god might be), IDK, but when you look around and see nothing sacred and that is what is reflected back, life itself loses meaning.

Throw in the standard psychotropic cocktail and a little ADHD diagnosis, who knows?

My $.02 (though worth arguably less)

 

[Durt D1ver]

What you're not going to hear on the Media or from the Presidents mouth is, not long ago the President AND Congress allowed a bill to expire that gave $800M to school for such things as School Resource Officers.

Due to budgetary concerns, they pulled our school resource officers out of the schools, because we didn't have enough cops to work the roads, because we lost 1/3 of our patrol division due to attrition. To keep the cops in the schools, the school board was asked to kick in some money to help pay for the school resource officers, so the town could use the money toward hiring, but they refused.

 

[bri]

I don't know if its been said already, but one major issue is that due to medical privacy laws, like HIPAA, mental health professionals cannot/don't notify NICS, state, or local police agencies when they encounter someone who they feel shouldn't have access to firearms. Which doesn't really apply to this event, because they weren't his weapons.

Not true. There are now laws as a result of a large law suit in CA. Mental health professionals are obligated to notify relatives and law enforcement if they believe someone is at risk of harming another.

 

[ptschram]

In response to EMMODG, I don't htink it's anything new. As a child, I vividly remember being told that the friend of an older brother of a friend of mine had killed a prostitute-making matter worse, the murdere's parents were both highly-regarded local physicians. This would have been back in the late 60s, early 70s. The next thing I know, the son of one of my mother's business partners (the business partner and his wife were, BTW, former LACSD officers) had done exactly the same thing.

They are both serving life sentences in Leavenworth (they were both in the army).

I'm sure that were I to ask my 90 year-old father, he'd have similar experiences to recount.