Oil pump priming

[terryjm1]

I used the Permatex substitute for hylomar on my last 4.0 build and 2000 miles in all good.

i recently replaced the water pump on my 300tdi. Most said to not use any sealer, just a little grease. Well, I guess there were some very tiny scratches in the gasket mating surface. It now very lightly weeps coolant. It doesn’t even stay wet long enough for me to see it. There is just a bit of residue. I can smell it occasionally but unless it gets worse I’m leaving it alone. This is the first and last time I will use no sealer. Who knows how many times the water pump was replaced and the mating surfaced has been scraped and lightly damaged. it’s a 30 year old engine. A little light application of sealer, I can’t see any drawbacks.

 

[LRDONE]

Im hoping to fire mine up tonight and have pressure! Now Im worried about my gasket too as it looks like yours as well. I didnt use Hylomar but the permatex substitute. Wouldnt hurt to check the relief valve while you are in there but I doubt it would be stuck. Fingers crossed for both of us.

I wish you the best lol. I'm not out of the water yet but this is my best guess so far. I'll definitely check the relief valve tonight.

 

[LRDONE]

I used the Permatex substitute for hylomar on my last 4.0 build and 2000 miles in all good.

i recently replaced the water pump on my 300tdi. Most said to not use any sealer, just a little grease. Well, I guess there were some very tiny scratches in the gasket mating surface. It now very lightly weeps coolant. It doesn’t even stay wet long enough for me to see it. There is just a bit of residue. I can smell it occasionally but unless it gets worse I’m leaving it alone. This is the first and last time I will use no sealer. Who knows how many times the water pump was replaced and the mating surfaced has been scraped and lightly damaged. it’s a 30 year old engine. A little light application of sealer, I can’t see any drawbacks.

I think the biggest problem is that I used a non setting sealer which made the gasket too soft and sort of mushy. I'm going to at least do the timing cover without anything.

 

[special ed]

I think the biggest problem is that I used a non setting sealer which made the gasket too soft and sort of mushy. I'm going to at least do the timing cover without anything.

We only use 2 sealants in the shop. Grey and Black "The Right Stuff" Grey for timing cover, water pump or basically any metal to metal sealing point with or without a gasket and black for intake valley ends, oil pan... where there is a rubber to metal sealing area. Timing cover i use a lite smear of grey on the cover, set the gasket in place and fit the cover.

As for using the wrong cover gasket they are talking about causes an internal pressure bleed. The block has 2 oil passages and one is not used in the latter block to cover. Early engine oil pickup was done through the block and later through the bottom of the timing cover. If your using a later internal oil pump timing cover then oiling is done through the pickup attached to the bottom of the cover. thus the engine oil passage is blocked off at the gasket. Early oiling the pickup is mounted to the bottom of the block and the oil passage runs up through the block through the gasket to the cover. you need the correct combination of bits.

 

[LRDONE]

We only use 2 sealants in the shop. Grey and Black "The Right Stuff" Grey for timing cover, water pump or basically any metal to metal sealing point with or without a gasket and black for intake valley ends, oil pan... where there is a rubber to metal sealing area. Timing cover i use a lite smear of grey on the cover, set the gasket in place and fit the cover.

As for using the wrong cover gasket they are talking about causes an internal pressure bleed. The block has 2 oil passages and one is not used in the latter block to cover. Early engine oil pickup was done through the block and later through the bottom of the timing cover. If your using a later internal oil pump timing cover then oiling is done through the pickup attached to the bottom of the cover. thus the engine oil passage is blocked off at the gasket. Early oiling the pickup is mounted to the bottom of the block and the oil passage runs up through the block through the gasket to the cover. you need the correct combination of bits.

Okay, thank you. Yeah, mine is the early oiling system where the oil is sucked through the block. My cover is the early cover too and the gasket was correct however it was leaking externally where the lower oil passage from the block meets the cover. I think that was creating enough of a leak to not let the pump prime.

 

[Disco95]

We only use 2 sealants in the shop. Grey and Black "The Right Stuff" Grey for timing cover, water pump or basically any metal to metal sealing point with or without a gasket and black for intake valley ends, oil pan... where there is a rubber to metal sealing area. Timing cover i use a lite smear of grey on the cover, set the gasket in place and fit the cover.

As for using the wrong cover gasket they are talking about causes an internal pressure bleed. The block has 2 oil passages and one is not used in the latter block to cover. Early engine oil pickup was done through the block and later through the bottom of the timing cover. If your using a later internal oil pump timing cover then oiling is done through the pickup attached to the bottom of the cover. thus the engine oil passage is blocked off at the gasket. Early oiling the pickup is mounted to the bottom of the block and the oil passage runs up through the block through the gasket to the cover. you need the correct combination of bits.

Very interesting. When you say “early” and “later” do you just mean distributor driven oil pump vs. crank-driven (gerotor) pump? Or is it more subtle? I only see one gasket listed at AB for the whole run of Discos in the US, part ERR7280.

Clarifying because I did find the pickup routing in my 95 3.9 to be a little different than the workshop manual diagrams. Specifically it routed internally into the timing cover instead of coming in from the bottom of the cover like the manual showed. This is on the “intermediate” cover with distributor but crank driven oil pump.

Here’s my cover. All the ports shown are “open” with gasket I used.



Thanks!
joe b
pdx or
95 D1 v8 5sp 200k

 

[LRDONE]

To the best of my knowledge, The differences he's talking about is between the gems 4.0 & bosch 4.0. Basically the oil pick ups are different. The gems goes from the pick up tube into the block, into the timing cover and then into the pump where the bosch goes from the pick up tube straight to the pump. Yours looks like it's the same as the gems 4.0 in terms of oil route. My ultimate question is, can you use the bosch 4.0 cover on a gems with the gasket as well. I'd rather have that set up.

 

[terryjm1]

In my experience the different gasket was between the crank driven oil pump timing cover and the earlier camshaft/distributor driven pump cover. I haven’t yet had a Bosch engine and can’t comment on that difference.

I think I still have at least one of each. If I can remember the next time I’m at my shop I will see and if I do I will take a photo to show the difference. To make things even more confusing for myself I probably have some for my old 3.5 liter TR8 in the same tote.

 

[Gordo]

I tried to figure this out as well but I’m not sure. I used the err7280 cover on mine. It also runs through the motor, different than my Rave manual states. I have a couple 96 5 speed D1s, both were the same style pickup. I did a pump a few years back on the other one and I’m pretty sure that’s the right gasket but neither of mine have a dizzy

 

[special ed]

There are 4 different covers, cux dist drive V belt, dist drive serp belt internal oil pump, gems and then bosch. the gaskets change to the cover but i think there are basically 2 gaskets depending on the oiling set up. (just last week richard grabbed a gasket off the shelf and then realized it was an early one before putting it together.) If the wrong gasket is used it creates a gap at the cover on one engine setup and basically a bleed and will not pull suction (path of least resistance thing) the other gasket will block off the oiling completely since it has a flat spot instead of a hole in it. it does get a little tricky in the interim years where they we working out internal oil pump and serp belt change over years and doing 4.6 swaps to early setups. remeber oil pans were different depending on oil pick up location too. Fun fun.

My advice it to place the gasket on the cover and make sure the holes line up there because thats where it matters then check that the passage holes are in the block because i remember some had a hole blocked off there. its all old man memory but its not complicated if you just look at it and match it up.

 

[Gordo]

Great advice. For the record, I fired mine up last night and all is good. The auto meter gauge adds some piece of mind too. Noisy for a bit and a lifter was clanking for awhile but it’s purring now. New glyco bearings and oil pump seemed to help and I’m not surprised as the bearings were mostly copper with 210k. Good luck with yours and keep us posted

 

[StangGT5]

Just to confirm a couple things that were already said, there are basically two timing cover gaskets. I ran into this issue by mistake during a partial rebuild of my RRC. I've built a ton of Bosch and a few Gems engines, but it had been a long time since I even saw a distributor under the hood of a Rover. Long story short, I learned the gaskets are close but not the same and will prevent the pump from priming.

As for gasket sealer, I use a THIN layer of Permatex Ultra Black on almost everything. I use the water-specific Permatex sealer on water pumps and thermostats. I used Hylomar on a couple Rover timing gaskets here and there and have also been pleased with its performance so far. The RRC was one such case and that made it easier to replace the wrong timing cover gasket.

Knock on wood (I have a Bosch engine on the the to-do list) I have never had an issue with the crank-driven pump priming. I check the housing for wear, install new gears, pack with Driven assembly grease, and let the motor turn over without the plugs for a bit before firing. I also use copious amounts of Comp Cams or Isky assembly lube on every rotating surface.

 

[4Runner]

So what happened? How’s it working out?

 

[LRDONE]

So what happened? How’s it working out?

Well, I ended up getting everything sealed back up however I think in the process I hurt the pump and possibly the motor. I get 40 pounds of oil pressure at idle but it takes about 25 seconds every time I start it, hot or cold. I drove it for a bit to see if it improved with no luck. I actually am hearing quite of bit of uncomfortable noise deep in the motor. The motor is tired, I've been putting band-aides on it for the last 20k miles. That being said, I just put storage insurance put on it and the motor is getting yanked for a proper rebuild, it deserves it. I just loaded my 911 motor onto the stand so that's getting reworked before the rover. Next spring both should be back on the road!

 

[4Runner]

I have always enjoyed working on 3.0 and 3.2 a lot more than on 4.6’s. lol thanks for the update. How far in are you going with the 911?

 

[LRDONE]

I have always enjoyed working on 3.0 and 3.2 a lot more than on 4.6’s. lol thanks for the update. How far in are you going with the 911?

I believe it. I’ve thought about engine swapping it but that’s no fun. When the 4.0 is good, it’s really good. Drive as fast as necessary but as slow as possible! Lol

The 911 is getting the case split. It’s a 03 with the 3.6liter. It has suffered from the famous “bore scoring” so I got a really good deal on it. The coating on the cylinder walls were not that good from the factory so it wears out, creates excessive tolerance and the piston skirt starts chewing the cylinder up. It starts out by burning oil, then making noise and then letting go. Mine luckily still ran but made noise.

The fix is to split the case, send them out to LNengineering where they machine the old sleeves out, install a better sleeve and turn them into a 4.0liter. Also a great time to address the IMS bearing. That fixes every flaw with the motor and makes them bulletproof. Porsche over engineered the heads so as a 4.0liter it’s takes advantage of the heads big time. Gt3 throttle body and IPD intake, that set up will put the motor right around the 400hp mark which is such a blast in a light little car.

 

[4Runner]

Oooooo. That definitely sounds like a great combination. I haven’t had the opportunity to work on a water cooled one before. They do a great job of over engineering things and at least there are solid fixes for the parts that fell short. Sounds like a busy winter.

 

[terryjm1]

Oooooo. That definitely sounds like a great combination. I haven’t had the opportunity to work on a water cooled one before. They do a great job of over engineering things and at least there are solid fixes for the parts that fell short. Sounds like a busy winter.

I had a 73 911s with a 2.4 engine. It had mechanical fuel injection and was insanely fast from 60 to 90 mph. While it was surprisingly easy to work on, the price of parts killed me with my limited 23 year old income. I purchased it not running with squirrels living in the engine. An Air Force pilot brought it back from Germany and let it sit in a garage for years. The cylinders were extremely corroded on the outside from squirrel urine. Parts were so pricey used cylinders were a hot commodity back then Some used cylinders, gaskets, and a rebuilt injection pump and it was back on the road. Wow, was it fun to drive. I can only imagine how a 4.0 would drive,

 

[LRDONE]

Oooooo. That definitely sounds like a great combination. I haven’t had the opportunity to work on a water cooled one before. They do a great job of over engineering things and at least there are solid fixes for the parts that fell short. Sounds like a busy winter.

The shop I work for, we only work on Porsche from 356 to current. I have to say the 996 is the easiest car I’ve ever worked on. A lot of people hate on them for dumb reasons, I love them.

 

[LRDONE]

I had a 73 911s with a 2.4 engine. It had mechanical fuel injection and was insanely fast from 60 to 90 mph. While it was surprisingly easy to work on, the price of parts killed me with my limited 23 year old income. I purchased it not running with squirrels living in the engine. An Air Force pilot brought it back from Germany and let it sit in a garage for years. The cylinders were extremely corroded on the outside from squirrel urine. Parts were so pricey used cylinders were a hot commodity back then Some used cylinders, gaskets, and a rebuilt injection pump and it was back on the road. Wow, was it fun to drive. I can only imagine how a 4.0 would drive

The prices today are even worse!!