Pulling Timing...I think!

[bryno]

I have a '99 DII, 4.6l. I have been chasing some power loss for some time now. I think I am pulling timing, but not sure why.

I have cleaned all codes except P0332 / P0150 or P0332 / P0130. The O2 code follows the o2, which is new, but getting it traded out in the morning to hopefully eliminate the 150/130 code. It is the Bosch 15175 from AZ.

I have switched the knock sensors side to side, but the code didn't follow.

When the engine is cold, it runs like it should, as it get to running temp, it runs like a sick puppy. It will do highway speed, but not with any normal vigor. It will downshift and accel and otherwise drives normal. No backfire or cutting out, just feels like it is retarding the timing and has not power. I can sometimes hear the pre-ignition and then the timing retards. There are currently no other codes.

I can also feel and see RPM fluctuations, mainly around 2500 RPM under 1/2 throttle. They are just pulses of power, like the timing is trying to correct; but it continues to feel severely under-powered.

I have recently changed the MAF, have good copper plugs and magnacore wires. Haven't touched the ECU, air temp, water temp, etc.; but no codes.

Any thoughts on the 'retarded' timing and the P0332?

 

[bryno]

Well I replaced the O2 and the p0150 code is gone for now. However, the p0332 knock code is still there and the timing is still pulling and power is way down.

Any thoughts?

 

[bryno]

About 100 miles later and the p0332 is still only code. Still pulling timing, running underpowered.

Since the ECU processes info from, crankshaft speed/position sensor, camshaft position sensor, engine coolant temp, MAF, air intake temp, knock, TPS, O2, high/low ration switch I have started to look at symptoms associated, but since I am not throwing codes, not sure if I will find anything there.

Help please? Where do I go next?

 

[jafir]

Define pulling timing.

 

[ptschram]

Define pulling timing.

I think he means it's retarding the timing.

 

[bryno]

Yes, pulling= retarded, just feels wrong calling my timing "retarded".

 

[bryno]

I got a bluetooth OBDII logger and using the Torque App for my HTC was able to get the following info:

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/oR0nfL949s4V8uujGfKfXg?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AuKr0qNh6JU/TlEMLC2pIKI/AAAAAAAAFCQ/XC7YJaOOTjY/s800/screenshot.jpg" height="640" width="384" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/amynbry/Photos?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">Photos</a></td></tr></table>

This was while coasting, no throttle, about 30 mph after driving around town for about 20 minutes. The graphs are: timing, MAF, fuel trim bank 1, fuel trim bank 2 and O2 volts bank 1 and O2 volts bank 2. There is quite a difference between B1 and B2 and was during most of the drive. The B1 f/t would move up to 25%, down to 4% and not much else, while the f/t from B2 moved around with the O2 voltage as seen in the screenshot.

Also noted that at full physical throuttle, the ECU was only logging 80% throttle.

I am still trying to figure this Torque app out, but I would love some help on what data to log to be helpful to track this problem down.

Thanks.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

I would bet on injectors are dirty and the 02's and ECU are playing with the fuel trim to try and compensate.

 

[no694terry]

i know fuel ping will cause the knock sensor to retarded timing and so will other forms of phantom knock like loose brackets taping engine. had a buddy chase phantom knock on a dsm to later find out it was the manifold to block bracket he "forgot to put bolts back in"

and its normal for that type of O2 voltage fluctuation when your off the throttle

 

[bryno]

From what I can find on the web, a properly running o2 should be quickly fluctuating the voltage between 0.0 and 1.0. Since my bank 1 isn't doing much at all, I am thinking b1 o2 isn't functioning properly.

I am guessing fuel trim is directly related to the o2?

Any thought on the TPS? Wouldn't the ECU output up to 100%? I guezs the reader could be showing the rate falsely.

 

[jafir]

My 03 doesn't show 100% throttle on my scanner when I floor it. (with the engine not running. I've not tried while going down the road, sounds dangerous )

 

[bryno]

What should I monitor with this reader to try and figure out what's going on.

Have ran sea foam through the fuel since I have had this problem. that should have cleaned the injectors, I would think. I guess I could do it again.

 

[bryno]

My 03 doesn't show 100% throttle on my scanner when I floor it. (with the engine not running. I've not tried while going down the road, sounds dangerous )

Dangerous to 'floor' your Disco?

 

[jafir]

I was thinking dangerous to drive it floored while looking at the scan tool.... AND it is an 03, the block might crack and then split in two and fall out of the disco at any time.

 

[bryno]

I was thinking dangerous to drive it floored while looking at the scan tool.... AND it is an 03, the block might crack and then split in two and fall out of the disco at any time.

hahahah! But isn't that the risk we take when we drive a Rover. LOL! I knew what you meant, just sounded too funny to pass.

I am using Torque for Android. I can put my HTC Evo in the cradle on the dash and glance as I drive; retty handy. Don't know how good the app is, but it displays lots of data. Now if I can just figure out if what I am seeing is good or bad and get it to point me to the root of my problem.

 

[DISCODOWN]

Thanks for sharing the torque app...another reason to hate my phone.

 

[bryno]

Here is a screenshot from the Torque App that shows what I have been trying to say. As you can see, the throttle is steady, RPM is in the 2300 range, load is 46.3% (slow/moderate acceleration) and you can see two 12-13 deg. increases in timing. The driving experience appears to be underpowerd/retarded and these spike in timing are felt as increases in power in the seat of the pants.

Please add you suggestions. I have two new upstream O2, running 93 oct. replaced MAF .... see above.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sOm3jDDt_IAFjH4LYmSbjw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-F9NdP5YJxCg/TlQRWeGAOvI/AAAAAAAAFDI/DL-eUZk4scU/s800/screenshot%252520%2525281%252529.jpg" height="640" width="384" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/amynbry/Photos?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">Photos</a></td></tr></table>

 

[bryno]

I don't know that my problem is injector related, but considering taking out another variable from the equation. Anyone use Witch Hunter performance, www.witchhunter.com, before? $20 per injector. I have used www.rceng.com but they are more expensive @ $24.

 

[bryno]

Kyle T Gave the answer to this problem over on Pirate. Posting her for reference and closure.

As it turns out, the code was pointing to a signal less than threshold, i.e. No signal in my case. I had a broken wire at the connector which was shrouded by the loom. Couldn't see it unless I was looking for. Soldered back together (soon to be replaced) and my timing stopped camping out at 4-6 deg timing. All my power is back and she drives like a 4.6l should.

Glad it was something simple.

 

[RoverbyProxy]

Broken wire where? Got a pic?