replacing series III head

Hoot

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
234
0
52
Bloomfield twp, MI
i am looking at buying a 1973 series III and the head has a small crack in it. On a 1-5 wrench scale how hard is it to swap out the head with one of those nifty little remanufactured heads complete with valves, and all the rest of the necessary goodies from rovers north or BP ? ive been doing most of my own work on my D1 and am looking to get my hands even more dirty on somethign a little more simple like a series III.

any adivice will be greatly appreciated.
 

Leslie

Well-known member
Apr 28, 2004
3,473
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52
Kingsport TN
If you can fiddle around under the hood of a D1, you can handle a Series.... If you have a new head and gasket and a torque wrench, you should be fine....


-L
 

Leslie

Well-known member
Apr 28, 2004
3,473
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52
Kingsport TN
PS...

To drive home the point about it being simple....

I've heard (grossly exaggerated) stories about people changing the head-gasket in mid-stream crossings using waxed newspaper as the gasket and only a crescent wrench, a screwdriver, and a pocketknife for tools....

Hopefully they would have done so before the crossing or gotten across before changing, or winched to shore first, lol, and maybe used a cereal box with gasket material or waxed paper, but regardless, you get the point....

-L
 

LR Max

Well-known member
May 1, 2004
1,190
7
Hotlanta, GA
You ever done cylinder heads on a D1? If so, then you've got all the nessecary skills to handle the cylinder head on a Series 3. It is darn near the same except the intake and exhaust is A LOT easier, the bolts aren't stretch bolts, and there is only one cylinder head.

What have you done on your discovery? I've done a lot of work on discos and then on my own series 3. Working on a certain component on a disco is always more difficult than on a series truck. If you've done a certain component on a disco, then a series is a breeze.

Overall, it is extremely straight forward. It can be done in a day, if you take your time, stop for food/beer, etc. The cylinder head is hefty but not too bad. When re-installing the cylinder head, it can be difficult. Take one of the cylinder head bolts to a hardware store and get a couple long studs. This will make lining up the cylinder head gasket and cylinder head A LOT easier. Expecially since this is an in-chassis replacement.

Other than that, a couple days before spray down all the bolts with liquid wrench (or whatever is your favorite). Expecially around the thermostat area since that is usually rusted. Also, if your thermostat is old, this is a prime time to replace it.
 
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Dan Ratcliffe

Guest
I would also like to mention that you must pay attention to the bolt pattern when you tighten things up. When you do tighten everthing, tighten everything up 75%, 90%, and then full torque following that pattern. Takes little longer, but it will ensure a good seat. Make sure your torque wrench is in good shape. I had bought one of thos fancy set-it-by-turning-the-handle wrenches, and it was way off. I had to completely re do the work after that last rebuild. I talked to my friends down at Flying Circus here in Durham, and they reccommended a straight forward torque wrench from Sears, with the needle guage. They are very easy to keep accurate for the casual mechanic.

You should pop the valve cover at about 500 miles and recheck the torque.


Max has some good advice about the bolts. If they were done properly the last time it was worked on they were put in dry.

P.S. My temperature unit on the head of the beast is sealed, for the last two and a half years by a gasket cut from a Heiniken 12 pack. :D
 
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LR Max

Well-known member
May 1, 2004
1,190
7
Hotlanta, GA
Good call Dan. Yes, the order of tightening is important. I guess along those lines, if you have the repair manual, follow it in all its detail. This should be a fairly easy concept but I thought I would mention it.

One other thing, the replacement head gasket comes in two flavors. If its copper, then you need to cover it in motor oil. If it is composite, then install dry. Personally, I have never seen a composite gasket for a series rover but I reckon they are out there. I do not know if one is superior or not. I run a copper and it works fine.

Anyone know the difference between the copper and composite gaskets??? :confused:
 
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Dan Ratcliffe

Guest
I use the composite as that is what is sold as the genuine part. The holes for the water coures are sized differently to aid water pressure and flow in the block. That's all I know about it. :(
 

Hoot

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
234
0
52
Bloomfield twp, MI
thanks for all the info guys. Sounds pretty doable or me. i just hope i can swing buying the rover. have to walk the line between saving money and justifying hobby spending. probaly have to sell my 1973 bmw bike.

while i have all your ears, thias same rover needs to have the rear crossmember replaced to. how much of a pain in the ass is this to have done? i mean it looks like a straighforward welding job. not that i am a welder, my art school welding class doesn't exactly qualify me as an expert but it looks like it would be simple for someone who knew what they are doing.
 

Leslie

Well-known member
Apr 28, 2004
3,473
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52
Kingsport TN
The welding itself is simple; the important thing is getting it lined up correctly. Before cutting off the bad one, measure the distance from the outside edge of the crossmember to a fixed point on the chassis on each rail. When the replacement is fitted, then you'll have a guide to make sure that you have it adjusted to the right length, and don't end up with it being too short or too long.

Best o' luck....



-L
 

ckuhtz

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2004
87
0
Roswell, GA
It is. I have to do the same with mine. If you look at the restoration guides, they generally recommend using something to brace/jig the rear frame section while the crossemember is still in place to prevent it from distorting after you cut it off.

Keith Tanner (http://keith.miata.net/landy/) has a page on his website how it can be done http://keith.miata.net/landy/rear_xmember.htm, pretty much a 'in the middle of the driveway' style repair. ;)

There are different approaches for this, a lot of it depends on just what shape your rear crossmember is in. Here's a picture of what mine looks like http://kuhtz.com/gallery/inv_rear/P1010134

So, no, it's not a scary job, just needs to be done right (like everything else).

Hope this is helpful somehow.
 

Ron

Well-known member
Jun 15, 2004
1,820
0
Main Line
I would just save your pennies for a new frame.

If it needs an x-member it probably really needs a new frame.
 

antichrist

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2004
8,208
0
68
Atlanta, GA
The Series III came stock with metal gaskets for the exhaust, and no gaskets for the nitake manifold. I've always switched to the full SIIa type fiver gasket that fits both manifolds.
 

Hoot

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
234
0
52
Bloomfield twp, MI
the rear cross member isnt rusted it is bent. some one drive into him form behind and pushed it in from the high point of the towhitch. so the rear cross member is bent in and is casuing binding on the rear door so you have to pretty much kick it at the latch to make it shut.

i talked to some guys at work who work in our metal shop and they said theyd help me out and weld in a new one. so i just need to get a new one. that is if i am going to buy it.
 
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EricSiepmann

Guest
Hoot said:
the rear cross member isnt rusted it is bent. some one drive into him form behind and pushed it in from the high point of the towhitch. so the rear cross member is bent in and is casuing binding on the rear door so you have to pretty much kick it at the latch to make it shut.

i talked to some guys at work who work in our metal shop and they said theyd help me out and weld in a new one. so i just need to get a new one. that is if i am going to buy it.


I would string the frame to make sure that is the only part of the frame that is out of square. It would be silly to invest the time money and effort in repaiting the rear cross member to find that the rest of the frame isn't square.

EwS
 

Hoot

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
234
0
52
Bloomfield twp, MI
more questions.

should i or shouldn't i?

need some advice on whether to buy the seriesIII or not. I have been looking around the area here in northern california nad i have only found a few or sale. one had a low asking price,$2500 which was due to the fact tht it was a garbage pile and the frame was rusted through. another was in too much disarray for me and the asking price was $4800. the last one i looked at, whihc is the one i am asking about has an asking price of $5000. the owner has been direct and seemingly open and honest. he has a list of all that he has done on it over the last 14 years that he has owned it. he is the second owner and he personally knew the original owners, whom ordered this rover form the factory with a bunch of special options like a dual battery set up, igntion lock, dual gas tanks, a pto winch etc.... so hes the 2nd owner. i called the folks at British pacific where had oreder all his parts to ask them about what he had bought and when etc.. and the parts guy new the owner and procedded to tell me that he had realy taken care of the rover and he had done most of the work himself and that it was a nice little series.

here: is the list of what he has replaced since owning it:

Engine is a four cylinder gasoline poweplant and has 15000 miles since rebuild. This was a total rebuild; pistons, head, timing chain, valves, seals, bearings, transmission was rebuilt, takeoff gear rebuilt, new front drive shaft. It has a new radiator, new master brakecylinder, new brake lines, new vacuum booster. all wheel bearings are new, axle seal new, ring and pinion is new, axle seals are new, rear axle shafts are new and four new leaf springs. There are also four new shock absorbers, new steering wheel, new gearshift, all new weather stripping with the exception of the front window. The heater fan is new, gas tank neck is new, carburetor is new, passenger side window frame is new, side mirrors are new, fuel pump is new and I have a spare. I did not touch any of the original wiring. All parts are Land Rover parts, as opposed to some after market supplier. These parts were purchased from British Pacific.

this is what i now it needs based on looking it over and form what the owner told me.

new cylinder head, there is a small crack in it. rear crossmember as discussed above., front righ shock is going, so new shocks on front. new mufler, as the old one got bent up going and he straightend it back out but should be replaced. needs a new steering dampner. and i can figure on a bunch of other normal maintenance tune up things like plugs, wires, points etc....

the one last thing is that the front drivers side frame has a repainr done to it. i am not sure if it was rust or if it was damaged. there are some sizeable plates welded around the frame at that point. the welds looked good and it had been painted over to prevent rusting. i drive it and it was a sold runner. the synchros seemed worn since i had to double clutch it to keep from grinding but it didn't slip put of gear at all when i drove it. the interiro was in decent shape, there seemed to be a little bit of rust on the bottom of the bulkhead drivers side but it really looked like surface rust. the interior rails on the bottom of the drivers door was in great shape, no rust, the passenger side had a rusted out spot and the bottom corner hinge side about the size of a quarter.

the body was in decent shape all original light green paint. the front fender had been damaged inteh fornt top corner where all the three fender surface planes meet and it had ben bumped back out into as close a shape to orignal as you could probably get it.

so what do you guys think? is it worth the 5k?

thanks for your help.
 
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EricSiepmann

Guest
Well, that is about what the market is bearing right now

If you don't want a major frame off project I would step away from it. It needs a new frame, new head, and has rust.

The PO previous costs mean nothing to me. I looked at a truck from the RN for sale ads that appeared to be a finished resto. New galv frame, new 2.5 motor, safari top. Sounded great. Until i got there. Bulkhead was rusting, bed was rusting, the seatbox tool lockers had no flooring underhtem, major leaks everywhere. Guy wouldn't deal.

The frame off and Head work are doable, but the rust is a problem. A bulkhead rebuild requires attention to detail and welding skills. ECR charges upwards of 3k for a refurbished and repainted bulkhead. Also, you get the "while I am doing this" disease. New bolts for the tub, new wiring and lines, .... Adds up quickly.

www.landroverexchange.com will enable you to best determine if it is right. A few thousand more and you can get some nice solid trucks.

EwS
 

Hoot

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
234
0
52
Bloomfield twp, MI
so from what i said your guess would be that it needs a new frame then? ok thats more then i can do in the space i have. do you think that if i could get the price down to 4k that it would be better worth it? figuring that i get it mechanically sound and then just baby the frame until the day i get a house with a garage? also juat from what i could tell on the blulkhead lookling in the floor boards
 

ckuhtz

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2004
87
0
Roswell, GA
Hmm. I think I'm going to chime in with the others, and for me personally I would walk away. There are always others. It is not worth rushing into a purchase and be miserable, but rather wait, research, and find what you really want, unless you're prepared to sign up for the cost and work to get these things fixed. Make a list of everything that you know so far. That's what I did before I embarked on my project, knowing there's going to be a lot of bits to fix. But, that's what I personally wanted.

After the additional info you gave, I would guess the frame has other issues. Being hit hard enough to bend rear crossmember has to be a pretty solid shunt. I also don't understand why the synchros are shot in 15k miles.

Btw, where does the $3k estimate for ECR's bulkhead restoration costs come from? http://www.eastcoastrover.com/bulkheadFAQ.html states "As a general rule the steel work on the average bulkhead (that was shipped to us following the FAQ guidelines below) runs about $1600. This covers Left and Right: feet, door posts, kick panels, and lower floors. If your bulkhead has rot in the upper door hinge area, around the gauge area or anything above about 3/4 of the way up, expect to pay more. The lower areas are very easy to fix with our repair panels and our jig. Rust in the upper areas means custom panels and time consuming fabrication"

Not bashing anyone, just wanting to understand how one arrives at the $3k number.

Thanks,
Christian
 
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EricSiepmann

Guest
ckuhtz said:
Hmm. I think I'm going to chime in with the others, and for me personally I would walk away. There are always others. It is not worth rushing into a purchase and be miserable, but rather wait, research, and find what you really want, unless you're prepared to sign up for the cost and work to get these things fixed. Make a list of everything that you know so far. That's what I did before I embarked on my project, knowing there's going to be a lot of bits to fix. But, that's what I personally wanted.

After the additional info you gave, I would guess the frame has other issues. Being hit hard enough to bend rear crossmember has to be a pretty solid shunt. I also don't understand why the synchros are shot in 15k miles.

Btw, where does the $3k estimate for ECR's bulkhead restoration costs come from? http://www.eastcoastrover.com/bulkheadFAQ.html states "As a general rule the steel work on the average bulkhead (that was shipped to us following the FAQ guidelines below) runs about $1600. This covers Left and Right: feet, door posts, kick panels, and lower floors. If your bulkhead has rot in the upper door hinge area, around the gauge area or anything above about 3/4 of the way up, expect to pay more. The lower areas are very easy to fix with our repair panels and our jig. Rust in the upper areas means custom panels and time consuming fabrication"

Not bashing anyone, just wanting to understand how one arrives at the $3k number.

Thanks,
Christian

Quite simple. The 1,600 is just for the repair panels. Add labour, shipping, paint and prep and you get to around 3k as an estimate. The above paragraph explains what is needed for the repair, not the entire cost of the repair.