Because it wont run the fuel pump untill the PCM sees crank signal . Just put the fuel system back to the way it was . At least you didnt buy a pump . Chase down the no spark everything else will start working . Start with all the power and grounds at the ignition system . Are you spinning the pump in the right direction ?
Seriously stumped
- Thread starter Zach801
- Start date
Because it wont run the fuel pump untill the PCM sees crank signal . Just put the fuel system back to the way it was . At least you didnt buy a pump . Chase down the no spark everything else will start working . Start with all the power and grounds at the ignition system . Are you spinning the pump in the right direction ?
You have a hard time not knowing everything don't you?
IF I JUMP THE RELAY AND POWER THE PUMP THERE IS STILL NO FUEL PRESSURE!!!
I hardly think the no spark condition is also not letting fuel get to the rail
IF I JUMP THE RELAY AND POWER THE PUMP THERE IS STILL NO FUEL PRESSURE!!!
I hardly think the no spark condition is also not letting fuel get to the rail
This is just on the fuel pressure; your truck's issues may be elsewhere, besides/on top of fuel pump and lines.
The pump should put out about 50psi, give or take a few. You can/should measure the pressure at the output port of the pump, if there's doubt - I am not sure thumb test is conclusive. Bosch engine should use a pump with built-in pressure regulator.
Then, you should see this pressure at the Schrader valve at the fuel rail. If you hear the pump whine when it is powered up, and see no pressure in the fuel rail, either the fuel line is kinked, or fuel filter is clogged shut (very rare but not impossible).
For discostew's education, here's a quote from a Discovery Series II Workshop Manual: Section "Fuel Delivery System - V8," page 19-2-6:
"The fuel pump is a 'self priming' wet type pump which is immersed in fuel in the tank. The fuel pump operates at all times when the ignition switch is in position II. If the engine is not started, the ECU will 'time-out' after 2 seconds and de-energise the fuel pump relay to protect the pump. The pump receives a feed from the battery via fuse 10 in the engine compartment fusebox and the fuel pump relay. The relay is energised by the ECM when the ignition switch is moved to position II."
How do you know the pump is in good shape?
Is that the test?Zach801 said:
The pump should put out about 50psi, give or take a few. You can/should measure the pressure at the output port of the pump, if there's doubt - I am not sure thumb test is conclusive. Bosch engine should use a pump with built-in pressure regulator.
Then, you should see this pressure at the Schrader valve at the fuel rail. If you hear the pump whine when it is powered up, and see no pressure in the fuel rail, either the fuel line is kinked, or fuel filter is clogged shut (very rare but not impossible).
For discostew's education, here's a quote from a Discovery Series II Workshop Manual: Section "Fuel Delivery System - V8," page 19-2-6:
"The fuel pump is a 'self priming' wet type pump which is immersed in fuel in the tank. The fuel pump operates at all times when the ignition switch is in position II. If the engine is not started, the ECU will 'time-out' after 2 seconds and de-energise the fuel pump relay to protect the pump. The pump receives a feed from the battery via fuse 10 in the engine compartment fusebox and the fuel pump relay. The relay is energised by the ECM when the ignition switch is moved to position II."
Lol I posted that same paragraph, we are stil wrong in his eyes..
So, I took the pump out of the tank, ran 12v to it, and it pumped very well, that's where I had my thumb over it, with it not in the vehicle.
When I put it back in, I can hear it running when I jump the relay and give it power, but there is still not a single drop of fuel up top.
I agree that there is obviously a larger underlying issue with the rover, however this particular problem is getting to me
Still no spark after swapping idm
So, I took the pump out of the tank, ran 12v to it, and it pumped very well, that's where I had my thumb over it, with it not in the vehicle.
When I put it back in, I can hear it running when I jump the relay and give it power, but there is still not a single drop of fuel up top.
I agree that there is obviously a larger underlying issue with the rover, however this particular problem is getting to me
Still no spark after swapping idm
ptschram
Well-known member
Just because we have thumb fuel pressure does not mean we have sufficient pressure to run the vehicle or to get it to the rail.
FWIW the last no-start DII I had the fuel pump basket was all busted up from someone trying to lift the vehicle from the fuel tank. It read half tank but there was no fuel at the pump and the pump would prime due to being on its side out of the fuel.
Zach-you said you had a friend with a $25K Snap-On scan tool. Beg borrow or steal it and use the scope function to read the CkPS signature. If it's as expensive as you say (and it's kinda hard to spend that much unless he got the workstation, but I digress). The "Guided Component Test" function will lead you right to the sensor, how too hook it up, and what "good looks like".
Swapnostics is now a formal Snap-On term for which I give accreditation to Chris Schaeffer every time! Let's not fix this through swapnostics.
FWIW the last no-start DII I had the fuel pump basket was all busted up from someone trying to lift the vehicle from the fuel tank. It read half tank but there was no fuel at the pump and the pump would prime due to being on its side out of the fuel.
Zach-you said you had a friend with a $25K Snap-On scan tool. Beg borrow or steal it and use the scope function to read the CkPS signature. If it's as expensive as you say (and it's kinda hard to spend that much unless he got the workstation, but I digress). The "Guided Component Test" function will lead you right to the sensor, how too hook it up, and what "good looks like".
Swapnostics is now a formal Snap-On term for which I give accreditation to Chris Schaeffer every time! Let's not fix this through swapnostics.
But your not making hot water yet ? Fix the fuel pressure first . You know better than me so I will just bow out at this point .
The filter is a bag around the pump.
I wonder if the pump tube broke in the tank? Didn't old rrc's do that?
I wonder if the pump tube broke in the tank? Didn't old rrc's do that?
ptschram
Well-known member
How about we pull the fuel line off at each juncture starting at the pump and look for the point at which we do not have flow?
Of course, this won't resolve the spark issue because we still haven't scoped the CkPS.
Of course, this won't resolve the spark issue because we still haven't scoped the CkPS.
ptschram
Well-known member
My trucks are RRCs and D1s, so the fuel filter I was talking about is in the rear right wheelwell. Apparently, D2s don't have it - so it leaves the kinked line as a culprit, if there's fuel pressure at the pump but not at the tail.
To your second comment - I had one chance to dick with the CkPS in a D1, and from this experience I can tell you that I have 35psi of fuel pressure in the rail once I turn the key in position II, before I engage the starter.
D2 workshop manual says the same should be true as well.
You really are that thick, aren't you?
Thats this clowns only chance . You do the test I'm talking about . Put a guage on the fuel system and see if that pump ever tries to run with the crank sensor unplugged . I called Ginever down in Chicago , we ran this shit down together Paul . How many guys do you think quit working for this car company cause the lack of propper info , or in this case incorrect info . Run it down for yourself , I think you will see the miserable old goat is right on this one .
No, and suggested measuring it properly.
You know, maybe it is normal and even right for dealer mechanics not to listen to their customers, but since I am not one, I tend to go by what I've been told. He said he got the pump running, observed some pressure at the pump, and none at the rail.discostew said:
From there, I guess there's something in the line preventing the fuel from reaching the rail. I did not know D2s didn't have external fuel filters (which, I guess, invalidates all I've said).
You, on the other hand, keep insisting he swaps his CkPS because, as you state, the fuel pump would not run without working sensor - which may or may not be true, but irrelevant in this particular little issue because he got the pump to run.
I never told him to keep switching crank sensors . That's not the only part of that circuit . But what I'm saying is that sometimes land rovers info is incorrect . I believe this is the case on this circuit .
I realize it would be hard for someone who never worked for this car company to believe that info could be wrong like this . But I really do feel like it is very misleading the way those paragraphs are written . I know from personal experience how the circuit works . I find it to be different than most Americans would think after reading that British nonsense . The big thing that throws you is the words engine cranking and how they insert it .
I realize it would be hard for someone who never worked for this car company to believe that info could be wrong like this . But I really do feel like it is very misleading the way those paragraphs are written . I know from personal experience how the circuit works . I find it to be different than most Americans would think after reading that British nonsense . The big thing that throws you is the words engine cranking and how they insert it .
Well, pm has the idea. Thanks for not making write that stuff again...
Will a voltmeter read the ckps as its trying to start? It won't be perfect, but at least it would show something
Will a voltmeter read the ckps as its trying to start? It won't be perfect, but at least it would show something
Peter,
Just because the pump runs, when jumpered, doesn't mean he doesn't have other issues.
As mechanics we run into countless issues with multiple issues at the same time. This guy may be in that boat. Being a fucking rover I wouldn't doubt it's a box of disappointment with multiple issues.
Even if you can hear the fuel pump run doesn't mean the pump is good, like you're saying. Pump could be bad, but without either
1) put a proper gauge at the fuel rail (it's not that hard with a 90 degree fitting, unless it's an SAI truck)
2) cut a square out of the carpet, pull the fuel line off, and see if fuel squirts out WHICH will put the fuel priming argument to bed.
If the truck was physically in my reach, I would watch engine speed while cranking then worry about the lack of fuel pressure.
if I didn't see engine speed I would install a genuine crank sensor. If I still didn't see engine speed then I would start pinning wires out. If no issues in the wiring then it must be an ECU issue.
Once I got engine speed and the truck still didn't run I'd move to the fuel issue.
Just because the pump runs, when jumpered, doesn't mean he doesn't have other issues.
As mechanics we run into countless issues with multiple issues at the same time. This guy may be in that boat. Being a fucking rover I wouldn't doubt it's a box of disappointment with multiple issues.
Even if you can hear the fuel pump run doesn't mean the pump is good, like you're saying. Pump could be bad, but without either
1) put a proper gauge at the fuel rail (it's not that hard with a 90 degree fitting, unless it's an SAI truck)
2) cut a square out of the carpet, pull the fuel line off, and see if fuel squirts out WHICH will put the fuel priming argument to bed.
If the truck was physically in my reach, I would watch engine speed while cranking then worry about the lack of fuel pressure.
if I didn't see engine speed I would install a genuine crank sensor. If I still didn't see engine speed then I would start pinning wires out. If no issues in the wiring then it must be an ECU issue.
Once I got engine speed and the truck still didn't run I'd move to the fuel issue.
Hey stew, you called me a clown.. I'd take this thing to the scrap yard before I took your advice to fix it.
I keep the p38 runnin just fine, and it happens to also be a Land Rover, which my dumb American ass can fix.
Any other vehicle, I would have had it running by now.. However, since I know enough to know that there are a plethora of electronic gizmos in this d2 that can hide well, I decided to ask for help.
I didn't ask for someone to come and ridicule me, and everyone that's trying to help me.
So please, fuck off.
Everyone else, thank you so far. I'm gonna see if I can get the super reader this weekend
I keep the p38 runnin just fine, and it happens to also be a Land Rover, which my dumb American ass can fix.
Any other vehicle, I would have had it running by now.. However, since I know enough to know that there are a plethora of electronic gizmos in this d2 that can hide well, I decided to ask for help.
I didn't ask for someone to come and ridicule me, and everyone that's trying to help me.
So please, fuck off.
Everyone else, thank you so far. I'm gonna see if I can get the super reader this weekend
Highly doubt it. You need the ground, reference voltage, and return signal.
What scan tool are you using? If it says engine speed that is the crank signal.
Go to the tps block then actuate the throttle pedal. Does that scan tool give you a reading?
You should not be discounting stew, he is absolutely correct regarding 'official' Land Rover literature. The literature is as reliable as their vehicles.