Swiftboat Pinheads
- Thread starter utahdog2003
- Start date
J
jerseyhippo
Guest
I'm a little more web-savy than the Veep 
That was pretty funny-they actually say something about that on their factcheck.org
That was pretty funny-they actually say something about that on their factcheck.org
Well Thanks Dan. Lucky for me, there is a nice cigar bar in downtown St. Louis. Let me know if you ever come west; the light is always on at my pad.
Amen Mark.
Forget the partisan bickery and trickery
It's all about who is the man that will best serve, challenged by the most important issue facing our country, TERRORISM, period. We all know that neither Bush or Kerry will get much done domestically with such a divided congress. War is not right or wrong, it is a necessity. If you can agree that these Muslims are trying to kill us, then you would agree that the BEST PLAN to fight and ultimately defeat terrorism is to help create and foster Freedom and Democracy for those too week to help themselves. It would be a lot easier to just push a few little read buttons. But true Freedom isn't easy.. Just ask those families affected by 9/11.
Bush......
It's all about who is the man that will best serve, challenged by the most important issue facing our country, TERRORISM, period. We all know that neither Bush or Kerry will get much done domestically with such a divided congress. War is not right or wrong, it is a necessity. If you can agree that these Muslims are trying to kill us, then you would agree that the BEST PLAN to fight and ultimately defeat terrorism is to help create and foster Freedom and Democracy for those too week to help themselves. It would be a lot easier to just push a few little read buttons. But true Freedom isn't easy.. Just ask those families affected by 9/11.
Bush......
Alot of the Muslim world has been trying to rid the earth of the great white menace for years. Bin Laden was around for the Clinton years. The main difference is that Bush took the fight to their doorstep as opposed to blowing up a warehouse with a cruise missle. The main reason for UBL hating Bush is because of that simple fact.
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As a Vietnam era vet, 71-73,(stateside), Purple Hearts at one point were a joke, you could get one if you dived for cover and broke your glasses, the Pentagon did change it back to where the medal meant something and only after bad press!
Officers who spent 6 months or less in a combat zone were called sarcastically as "ticket punchers" , because it helped their personal goal of advancement. Enlisted personnel were given 6 months before rotation also, but their goal was to get out of Nam alive.
Kerry's record shows he was a ticket puncher, a climber on the social ladder. That kind of ethos is not my cup of tea.
As for his medals, no big deal for that era.
My DD214 has fine print "women and children first"
Officers who spent 6 months or less in a combat zone were called sarcastically as "ticket punchers" , because it helped their personal goal of advancement. Enlisted personnel were given 6 months before rotation also, but their goal was to get out of Nam alive.
Kerry's record shows he was a ticket puncher, a climber on the social ladder. That kind of ethos is not my cup of tea.
As for his medals, no big deal for that era.
My DD214 has fine print "women and children first"
Dan Ratcliffe said:
Great post, Dan. I feel the same and couldn't have stated it as eloquently.
I definitely think the only area that is worth questioning about Kerry's actions is what he did after he returned to the "world" and his associations and actions.
A fact to remember is that Kerry voted for and states he would also have invaded Iraq-albeit he tries to argue that HE would have gotten UN support(?) yet he also states US didn't need to get the world's permission to act on Iraq(?). He also doublespeaks on a number of issues as to the evidence of WMD. It's all about gettin' votes...
GregH said:
I don't understand what the problem with this position is. The two are mutually exclusive.
Kerry can vote in favour of giving the President the ability to use force to enforce the UN resolutions. This is what he, and many others, were voting for.
The problem arises whe the UN does not ask that their resolution be enforced Until Hans Blix and his inspection teams were satisfied. The President used the authority that was given him in a way that was not in the spirit or intent that it was given.
bcroz said:
This kind of statement is exactly what many have accused Kerry and others of: Monday morning quarterbacking.
Throughout the Clinton years there have been many example of Clinton using force against terrorists. A read of Richard Clarke's book would provide that information. He also provided more resources (i.e. money) to combat terrorism than any prior president.
The problem that he faced was that dispite having teams able to track bin Laden, getting the authourity for the man on the ground to assassinate bin Laden was almost impossable. The Executive Order prohibiting assassination was still in effect, as a result by the time the team would narrow his location down, and authority was communicated back from the US, bin Laden would have changed location.
The Islamist (not Muslim or Islamic. There is a difference) radicals are at issue here. They are not rational players, but they do understand force. However, the unilateral use of force that has typified the actions of Bush, Cheney and Co. have neither addressed the threat, nor developped the necessary good will and respect that is needed.
All that has been suggested by Kerry is that consensus in the UN was only a few weeks away. There was no imminent threat, so no need to strike immediately.
There are many members of the UN that have significantly more experience with terrorism than the US. That's right: there are others with more knowledge and understanding of the threat the US is facing than Americans. France - for example - has been the target of Islamist Terrorism for decades.
Before you say that if France knew what they were doing it would have ended years ago, think about where the US is going to be in 10 years if they keep pissing off even those that offer to help them.
Victor
D
doc1911
Guest
As I sit here writing this I am looking up at an award I have framed from my tour in Afghanistan. I also served in Iraq and been awarded a Silver Star and a Bronze Star w/ Valor, both times working in Army Special Operations Command. I have earned the right to say what I have to say.
The US military has made a mockery of the award system. Very few people truly earn the awards they are given and most men do not get what they deserve. Only awards that are given for valor or heroism are required to meet very exacting standards. I question anyone wearing a Bronze Star or below to include the Combat Infantry Badge (CIB) and the Combat Medical Badge (CMB). In almost all units a senior enlisted man or an officer is given a Bronze Star for just showing up. Here is an example.....In Afghanistan virtually all on the lower enlisted guys who where actually doing combat missions where given an Army Commendation Award, one of the lowest award you can get. On the other had, the Capt who was not even in Afghanistan (he was in the Middle East at a secury and very, very comfortable location) who's job it was to ensure the troops on the line where getting thier mail was awarded a Bronze Star. This is a very common event. Ask anyone who served. By the way, the sergeant who sat next to him a re-enlisted 7 guys in 3 months also got a Bronze Star.
As far as awards like the CIB and CMB, there are thousands of troops running around with these awards but have never been shot at, never shot at anyone, never woked on a wounded soldier or saved anyone. They just showed up.
As far as the Purple Heart, the problem is that it is very subjective. while in Iraq, a friend of mine came to me with a small piece of shrapnel in his shoulder from a rather interesting night we had the day prior. The wound looked like a big zit....aka a "kerry wound." He did not want to go to the medic because he new that if the Chain of Command found out he would be put in for a PH.
On the othere hand, while in Afghanistan I personally saw a Capt whose company was still in middle of a major operation, take himself out of the fight to a hospital in oder to have a similar would looked at (shrapnel, the same size, on his forearm). He was given some medicime, the wound was cleaned and he was sent on his way. Before leaving he demanded the paperwork in oder to ensure his "injury" was documented. I'll bet my 2005 paycheck that sorry bastard wanted it in order to justify a PH.
I have met Dan and respect him and his service but he is incorrect. You do not need to be injured by enemy fire to get a PH. Not now. I know a guy who has a PH from a miscommunication on a friendly explosive charge.
Like I said, the problem is that unless it is a big award where witness statements are taken and the actions are looked at very closely, awards are often dictated by commands. Officers and serior NCO's are in charge and and often careers are made by awards. It does not take a brain surgeon to see where the awards will usually go. It may have been different in Vietnam but I'm sure not too different.
It says a lot about a man, his questionable past and suspect integrity, when almost 80% (as reported by the Army Times) of soldiers will vote of Bush. All the while knowing the reason they have been gone from thier families for months on end, sitting the the hot desert is because of the President. Clinton was a slime ball but at least he and Bush pretty much admitted they circumvented the Vietnam War. I would take that any day over a guy who showed up for a couple months, injured himself, got a few bulls%^t PH's, came home to rat out his fellow soldiers to fit his political agenda, voted against every pro-soldier/pro-military bill possible for 20 years in the Senate then tries to make himself out to be a pro-military war hero. No thanks.
The US military has made a mockery of the award system. Very few people truly earn the awards they are given and most men do not get what they deserve. Only awards that are given for valor or heroism are required to meet very exacting standards. I question anyone wearing a Bronze Star or below to include the Combat Infantry Badge (CIB) and the Combat Medical Badge (CMB). In almost all units a senior enlisted man or an officer is given a Bronze Star for just showing up. Here is an example.....In Afghanistan virtually all on the lower enlisted guys who where actually doing combat missions where given an Army Commendation Award, one of the lowest award you can get. On the other had, the Capt who was not even in Afghanistan (he was in the Middle East at a secury and very, very comfortable location) who's job it was to ensure the troops on the line where getting thier mail was awarded a Bronze Star. This is a very common event. Ask anyone who served. By the way, the sergeant who sat next to him a re-enlisted 7 guys in 3 months also got a Bronze Star.
As far as awards like the CIB and CMB, there are thousands of troops running around with these awards but have never been shot at, never shot at anyone, never woked on a wounded soldier or saved anyone. They just showed up.
As far as the Purple Heart, the problem is that it is very subjective. while in Iraq, a friend of mine came to me with a small piece of shrapnel in his shoulder from a rather interesting night we had the day prior. The wound looked like a big zit....aka a "kerry wound." He did not want to go to the medic because he new that if the Chain of Command found out he would be put in for a PH.
On the othere hand, while in Afghanistan I personally saw a Capt whose company was still in middle of a major operation, take himself out of the fight to a hospital in oder to have a similar would looked at (shrapnel, the same size, on his forearm). He was given some medicime, the wound was cleaned and he was sent on his way. Before leaving he demanded the paperwork in oder to ensure his "injury" was documented. I'll bet my 2005 paycheck that sorry bastard wanted it in order to justify a PH.
I have met Dan and respect him and his service but he is incorrect. You do not need to be injured by enemy fire to get a PH. Not now. I know a guy who has a PH from a miscommunication on a friendly explosive charge.
Like I said, the problem is that unless it is a big award where witness statements are taken and the actions are looked at very closely, awards are often dictated by commands. Officers and serior NCO's are in charge and and often careers are made by awards. It does not take a brain surgeon to see where the awards will usually go. It may have been different in Vietnam but I'm sure not too different.
It says a lot about a man, his questionable past and suspect integrity, when almost 80% (as reported by the Army Times) of soldiers will vote of Bush. All the while knowing the reason they have been gone from thier families for months on end, sitting the the hot desert is because of the President. Clinton was a slime ball but at least he and Bush pretty much admitted they circumvented the Vietnam War. I would take that any day over a guy who showed up for a couple months, injured himself, got a few bulls%^t PH's, came home to rat out his fellow soldiers to fit his political agenda, voted against every pro-soldier/pro-military bill possible for 20 years in the Senate then tries to make himself out to be a pro-military war hero. No thanks.
Nothing new, Matt. I've talked with old guys who saw weeks of front line euro theater combat duty who tell me of stories like REMF officers who'd grab a jeep ride to just behind the front lines for 5 minutes just to get their CIB, etc.
My father-in-law, who served as a navy surgeon attached to the Marines in Vietnam tells me of bizarre medal-earning stories (guys getting Purple Hearts from injuries from burning shit barrels, etc.) and the capricious decisions on who got medals, who didn't.
I bet that it was the same in WWI, Civil War, etc. Most heroic actions go unrecognized except for the respect of your fellow soldiers and possibly the enemy.
I've talked with alot of combat veterans who have told me that, to them, medals really meant very little. It's the respect and loyalty of their fellow soldiers that they really cared about and the reason they were willing to put their life and limb on the line. The fact that Kerry does not have the respect and loyalty of some of those that he served with seems to me to be rather telling. I believe it has alot to do with his actions after returning stateside.
My father-in-law, who served as a navy surgeon attached to the Marines in Vietnam tells me of bizarre medal-earning stories (guys getting Purple Hearts from injuries from burning shit barrels, etc.) and the capricious decisions on who got medals, who didn't.
I bet that it was the same in WWI, Civil War, etc. Most heroic actions go unrecognized except for the respect of your fellow soldiers and possibly the enemy.
I've talked with alot of combat veterans who have told me that, to them, medals really meant very little. It's the respect and loyalty of their fellow soldiers that they really cared about and the reason they were willing to put their life and limb on the line. The fact that Kerry does not have the respect and loyalty of some of those that he served with seems to me to be rather telling. I believe it has alot to do with his actions after returning stateside.
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D
Dan Ratcliffe
Guest
2-8. Purple Heart
The Purple Heart was established by General George Washington, at Newburgh, New York, on 7 August 1782, during the Revolutionary War. It was reestablished by the President of the United States per War Department General Orders 3, 1932 and is currently awarded pursuant to Executive Order 11016, 25 April 1962, Executive Order 12464, 23 February 1984 and Public Law 98-525, 19 October 1984.
a. The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of the President of the United States to any member of an Armed Force or any civilian national of the United States who, while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services after 5 April 1917, has been wounded or killed, or who has died or may hereafter die after being wounded
(1) In any action against an enemy of the United States.
(2) In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged.
(3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
(4) As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces.
(S) As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force.
(6) After 28 March 1973, as a result of an international terrorist attack against the United States or a foreign nation friendly to the United States, recognized as such an attack by the Secretary of the Army, or jointly by the Secretaries of the separate armed Services concerned if persons from more than one service are wounded in the attack.
(7) After 28 March 1973, as a result of military operations while serving outside the territory of the United States as part of a peacekeeping force.
b. While clearly an individual decoration, the Purple Heart differs from all other decorations in that an individual is not "recommended" for the decoration; rather he or she is entitled to it upon meeting specific criteria.
(1) A Purple Heart is authorized for the first wound suffered under conditions indicated above, but for each subsequent award an Oak Leaf Cluster will be awarded to be worn on the medal or ribbon. Not more than one award will be made for more than one wound or injury received at the same instant or from the same missile, force, explosion, or agent.
(2) A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.
(3) When contemplating an award of this decoration, the key issue that commanders must take into consideration is the degree to which the enemy caused the injury. The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award.
(4) Examples of enemy-related injuries which clearly justify award of the Purple Heart are as follows:
(a) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action.
(b) Injury caused by enemy placed mine or trap.
(c) Injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological or nuclear agent.
(d) Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.
(e) Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.
(5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:
(a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.
(b) Heat stroke.
(c) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.
(d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.
(e) Battle fatigue.
(f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.
(g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action.
(h) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence.
(i) Post traumatic stress disorders.
(j) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action.
(6) It is not intended that such a strict interpretation of the requirement for the wound or injury to be caused by direct result of hostile action be taken that it would preclude the award being made to deserving personnel. Commanders must also take into consideration, the circumstances surrounding an injury, even if it appears to meet the criteria. Note the following examples:
(a) In case such as an individual injured while making a parachute landing from an aircraft that had been brought down enemy fire; or, an individual injured as a result of a vehicle accident caused by enemy fire, the decision will be made in favor of the individual and the award will be made.
(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.
(c) Individuals injured as a result of their own negligence; for example, driving or walking through an unauthorized area known to have been mined or placed off limits or searching for or picking up unexploded munitions as war souvenirs, will not be awarded the Purple Heart as they clearly were not injured as a result of enemy action, but rather by their own negligence.
Matt is correct, someone could give you the award for hurting yourself with your own munition. However, that would be poor use of the award in my view.
While I can't speak for the other services, our stinginess with medals is fairly well documented. These are all the awards to date for the USMC service in Iraq. Though 33,000 would seem high for the Combat Action Ribbon (CAR) recognize that nearly a quarter of a million Marines, some folks are on their third tour, (there are less than 200,000 total) have been in country. During the assault on Bagdhad, in most of the assualting battalions, only the lead platoon, or on a couple of occasions the lead company would get the CAR. Many of the Marines involved involved from Kuwait all the way to Bagdhad, infantry units, did not qualify. Why bother you with all of this? Matt is right, some folks have turned awards into the great give away, but some of us haven't. Matt, I certainly hope that this does not appear to be a critisism of your point, it is not.
USMC AWARDS TOTAL OIF
MEDAL OF HONOR - 0
NAVY CROSS 6
SILVER STAR 12
LEGION OF MERIT W/ ?V? 18
LEGION OF MERIT 4
DISTINGUISHED FLYING CROSS W/ ?V? 7
DISTINGUISHED FLYING CROSS 2
NAVY AND MARINE CORPS MEDAL 2
BRONZE STAR WITH ?V? 284
BRONZE STAR 482
AIR MEDAL WITH ?V? 374
AIR MEDAL INDIVIDUAL ACTION 148
AIR MEDAL STRIKE/FLIGHT 1686
NAVY AND MARINE CORPS COMMENDATION MEDAL W/ ?V? 1091
NAVY AND MARINE CORPS ACHIEVEMENT MEDAL W/ ?V? 2196
COMBAT ACTION RIBBON 33606
"and to keep our honor clean..."
The Purple Heart was established by General George Washington, at Newburgh, New York, on 7 August 1782, during the Revolutionary War. It was reestablished by the President of the United States per War Department General Orders 3, 1932 and is currently awarded pursuant to Executive Order 11016, 25 April 1962, Executive Order 12464, 23 February 1984 and Public Law 98-525, 19 October 1984.
a. The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of the President of the United States to any member of an Armed Force or any civilian national of the United States who, while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services after 5 April 1917, has been wounded or killed, or who has died or may hereafter die after being wounded
(1) In any action against an enemy of the United States.
(2) In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged.
(3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
(4) As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces.
(S) As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force.
(6) After 28 March 1973, as a result of an international terrorist attack against the United States or a foreign nation friendly to the United States, recognized as such an attack by the Secretary of the Army, or jointly by the Secretaries of the separate armed Services concerned if persons from more than one service are wounded in the attack.
(7) After 28 March 1973, as a result of military operations while serving outside the territory of the United States as part of a peacekeeping force.
b. While clearly an individual decoration, the Purple Heart differs from all other decorations in that an individual is not "recommended" for the decoration; rather he or she is entitled to it upon meeting specific criteria.
(1) A Purple Heart is authorized for the first wound suffered under conditions indicated above, but for each subsequent award an Oak Leaf Cluster will be awarded to be worn on the medal or ribbon. Not more than one award will be made for more than one wound or injury received at the same instant or from the same missile, force, explosion, or agent.
(2) A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.
(3) When contemplating an award of this decoration, the key issue that commanders must take into consideration is the degree to which the enemy caused the injury. The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award.
(4) Examples of enemy-related injuries which clearly justify award of the Purple Heart are as follows:
(a) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action.
(b) Injury caused by enemy placed mine or trap.
(c) Injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological or nuclear agent.
(d) Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.
(e) Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.
(5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:
(a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.
(b) Heat stroke.
(c) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.
(d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.
(e) Battle fatigue.
(f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.
(g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action.
(h) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence.
(i) Post traumatic stress disorders.
(j) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action.
(6) It is not intended that such a strict interpretation of the requirement for the wound or injury to be caused by direct result of hostile action be taken that it would preclude the award being made to deserving personnel. Commanders must also take into consideration, the circumstances surrounding an injury, even if it appears to meet the criteria. Note the following examples:
(a) In case such as an individual injured while making a parachute landing from an aircraft that had been brought down enemy fire; or, an individual injured as a result of a vehicle accident caused by enemy fire, the decision will be made in favor of the individual and the award will be made.
(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.
(c) Individuals injured as a result of their own negligence; for example, driving or walking through an unauthorized area known to have been mined or placed off limits or searching for or picking up unexploded munitions as war souvenirs, will not be awarded the Purple Heart as they clearly were not injured as a result of enemy action, but rather by their own negligence.
Matt is correct, someone could give you the award for hurting yourself with your own munition. However, that would be poor use of the award in my view.
While I can't speak for the other services, our stinginess with medals is fairly well documented. These are all the awards to date for the USMC service in Iraq. Though 33,000 would seem high for the Combat Action Ribbon (CAR) recognize that nearly a quarter of a million Marines, some folks are on their third tour, (there are less than 200,000 total) have been in country. During the assault on Bagdhad, in most of the assualting battalions, only the lead platoon, or on a couple of occasions the lead company would get the CAR. Many of the Marines involved involved from Kuwait all the way to Bagdhad, infantry units, did not qualify. Why bother you with all of this? Matt is right, some folks have turned awards into the great give away, but some of us haven't. Matt, I certainly hope that this does not appear to be a critisism of your point, it is not.
USMC AWARDS TOTAL OIF
MEDAL OF HONOR - 0
NAVY CROSS 6
SILVER STAR 12
LEGION OF MERIT W/ ?V? 18
LEGION OF MERIT 4
DISTINGUISHED FLYING CROSS W/ ?V? 7
DISTINGUISHED FLYING CROSS 2
NAVY AND MARINE CORPS MEDAL 2
BRONZE STAR WITH ?V? 284
BRONZE STAR 482
AIR MEDAL WITH ?V? 374
AIR MEDAL INDIVIDUAL ACTION 148
AIR MEDAL STRIKE/FLIGHT 1686
NAVY AND MARINE CORPS COMMENDATION MEDAL W/ ?V? 1091
NAVY AND MARINE CORPS ACHIEVEMENT MEDAL W/ ?V? 2196
COMBAT ACTION RIBBON 33606
"and to keep our honor clean..."
tehamarx said:Final Score:
Pinheads 1
Ketchup 0
What is it with Ketchup? Kerry's wife is a minor stockholder in Heinz, and has absolutely no say in the operations of the company.
Reminds me of the Satanist connection of Procter and Gamble.
Only thing I can think of is to distract people from the real issues. Like trying to link Bush and the Nazi's.
Ok,
It could've been:
CBS News 1
Oil 0
The P&G rumor started in Ohio?
I missed the Nazi/Bush conspiracy thing, elucidate.
It could've been:
CBS News 1
Oil 0
The P&G rumor started in Ohio?
I missed the Nazi/Bush conspiracy thing, elucidate.