Synthetic Winch Line

[Milan]

The heat issue is indeed only present on the planetary winches (except the new EP series Superwinch) and only when winching out under load. Synthetic line will be fine on any worm gear winch so it does not matter how old that Husky is.

The Synthetic line falls to the ground rather than snap back due to less (not more) elongation than steel. The rope does not stretch nearly as much as the steel cable, so the stored energy is less. On top of that it weighs less so when it does snap back it's very little and quite harmless.

 

[p m]

From the previously quoted source: http://www.4x4wire.com/reviews/oro_xline02/:

Steel stretches... as much as 1.7% elongation at break, but that's less than synthetic. Compare that to X-Line's 4.6% elongation at break (14,000 lbs. for the 5/16" dia. rope).

where do you guys get your facts from?

 

[nosivad_bor]

i have that x-line from offroadonly.com i havent used it yet but it smells like shit.

Heat rating is higher than normal synth line for not much more extra.

x-line brings up a good point which is though it might take 400 deg or so to melt the competitions week it's overall strength rating is cut in half when it approaches 200 deg. and i think 200 deg is a realistic number on a hot truck in the baking sun in the desert.

 

[Snwbord24]

Shane, you've fucked up the not-so-simple issue multiple times.
- "Einsten rules E=mc^2" has NOTHING to do with it.
- "Obviously the mass is much less for synthetic rope so for the same velocity their energy is equal" HUH? if velocity is the same, and mass is less, how is energy equal?
- the elongation of the synthetic rope is nearly four times more than steel
- how do you know - how long does it take for the cable to break? Have you EVER seen a steel cable to break at once?

Not that it really matters to the decision process (buy or not to buy synthetic rope)...

Sorry, I meant less not equal. I fucked that up. It's a simplified way of looking at it I agree. But it works.

Yes the elongation of the synthethic is alot more than the steel. However the steel will return back to it's original state much faster than the synthetic that's stretched more.
If you really want me to do some math and figure it out I can, let me know. The synthetic line dissipates the energy much more than the steel line does. That energy doesn't go into the velocity so it's lower than the steel when it breaks.

What do you mean "how long does it take for the cable to break?"

Have I ever seen steel cable break in person, no. But I've gotten enough training in my 13 years in the Navy to know that it's bad shit. So is standard rope for that matter.

 

[Snwbord24]

If the synthetic doesn't really stretch then the issue is solved. I've never really looked into it that much and I thought it did stretch.

 

[p m]

Shane, the synthetic does stretch, and more than steel. Also, neither synthetic nor steel cable break at once (that is, under steadily increasing load), so some energy is released as the strands break one after another. I now believe that the ends of synthetic rope fly apart faster than steel - but, very importantly, the ends don't coil up like steel.

 

[antichrist]

If anyone does stay with wire rope, I suggest something like the following
3/8, 6x19 Compacted IWRC Core 17,600lb breaking strength
or
3/8, 6x37 Class IWRC Core 16,600lb breaking strength
Cheers

 

[Milan]

From the previously quoted source: http://www.4x4wire.com/reviews/oro_xline02/:

Steel stretches... as much as 1.7% elongation at break, but that's less than synthetic. Compare that to X-Line's 4.6% elongation at break (14,000 lbs. for the 5/16" dia. rope).

where do you guys get your facts from?

Well I was going on something I just remembered. I guess I remembered it wrong. I thought Steel stretched 3%. I don't remember where I read that. I also know X-line stretches more than other synthetic lines. So I thought most stretched less than steel cable.

Coincidentally from the same site:

"UHMWPE differs here, because it stretches less than X-Line. UHMWPE has an elongation of only 0.79% at 30% of breaking strength (that's about 4,200 lbs. pull). X-Line's stretch is 1.2% at the same tension, or about 50% higher. Is the additional stretch a problem? Probably not. Remember that the synthetic rope has a much higher breaking strength than steel, so the large amount of stretch will not be seen in real life."

I use Master-Pull (UHMWPE), so at break it stretches about 2.6%. Either way it's 2.6% at 14500 lbs so that would be equal to 1.7 at 9500 if the elongation is linear. So at most it's like the steel cable, I guess.

 

[Kyle]

Well the husky doesnt build up any heat to talk about anyway so half this heat talk is a waste of time.. I ran Ho's on my truck pretty hard for a short time and it never had any heat to talk about. Les is thinking about a planet winch..

Kyle

 

[Gabe]

Ok, I usually just read the posts and keep to myself unless it?s a topic I know something about.

All this discussion about the heat resistant synthetic line and snapping steel cable vs. snapping synthetic line has got me all wound-up, ( pun intended )

I?m a textile engineer ( textile designer ) I design and make rigid straps and elastic straps for a living.
Here?s my take on Synthetic line. It?s currently fashionable. It?s no safer or less safe than steel wire rope when it?s new. After 3 months of use, your synthetic line has lost 20% of it?s tensile break strength.. After you have sand, dust and road dirt embedded within the fibers, the line will weaken with every use due to compounded abrasion within the fibers. That?s not even accounting for abrasion on the ground, rocks, trees. I?m not saying it?s bad stuff. It has it?s place. It?s nice to be able to bare hand it sometimes. It?s lighter and looks nice but it?s not for long term repeated use in soiled environments.

Steel wire rope will out last all the synthetic lines. Give the spooled-up cable a good soaking of WD40 or marvel mystery oil every time you change your oil and unless you kink your cable it will last years not months like the fancy synthetic line.

Put all the formulas aside for a moment. I have run tensile break tests on steel wire rope and synthetic webbing, braided line and synthetic rope. The wire rope is wound. that means the outer strands will fail first by design and although it is possible to shock load a steel cable for a near clean snap, it?s very rare. the synthetic line and webbing will however snap because the way we get the webbing and braids to have break strength near and above the steel rope is to stress the fibers in the weave, braid and wind so that all the fibers see the same load all the time. That?s why they stretch less at lower loads but stretch more than wire rope at higher loads and fail as a clean snap.

Steel wire rope will typically stretch 1.5 to 2% at the first 30% of load strength and not stretch much more after that. When the outer strands break, they spiral out from the loaded strands. That can be un-nerving.
The synthetic stretches less than steel cable at 30% of it?s load strength as in the claims but every one is forgetting that it keeps on stretching at 50% and 70% and so on. At 90% of it?s load strength, some of these things will have stretched nearly 10%. when it snaps, I for one don?t want to be in the way to catch it even if it is lighter. Some Kevlar webbing I made for use as slings will snap with enough force to damage the tensile break test machine.

Also, contrary to the popular misconception that it?s possible to have a synthetic rope or webbing stretch under load but relax slowly and controlled so that when it breaks, it falls to the ground. It?s not possible. The force required to elongate the fibers will be the force of energy stored.

I haven?t even touched on UV exposure of Polyester/Nylon/Kevlar fibers.

Well, this will be debated for ever much like the winch debates but, I will stay with my RE 12K worm and good old predictable Steel wire rope.

Sorry but, I'm not sold on Sythetic. As a recovery strap, sure Sythetic starps are strong and light but again, short life with repeated use but they don't cost what a winch line will cost you.

GG

 

[Leslie]

Well the husky doesnt build up any heat to talk about anyway so half this heat talk is a waste of time.. I ran Ho's on my truck pretty hard for a short time and it never had any heat to talk about. Les is thinking about a planet winch..

Kyle

Will it not stop??!!!!?!?!


The original part of the thread was from months ago, and needed a nail in the coffin. Kyle's pegged it, I was thinking about planetaries at the time, and messed up, and Ho straightened me out. (that's what I get for posting after my bedtime, lol..... )


Steel versus synthetic was a totally separate argument from the original jist of the synthetic safe on a Husky bit. Should have been started over as a separate post, because the Husky bit is confusing the issue, multiple conversations going on simultaneously in one thread...... but hey, that's the internet......


Use whichever you like on whatever, just know how to use what you have.


Carry on......



-L

 

[antichrist]

Gabe. Thanks ever so much, you stated things I've been thinking, but haven't said, not being an engineer who works/designs this stuff.
It strikes me that the synthetic is ideal to carry as extension lines, but have always questioned actually using it on a winch.
I've used original wire rope on a 30 year old winch, loaded to the point the shear pin went. I have serious doubts synthetic would last that long.
Cheers.

 

[Milan]

Well Gabe, whatever. I have had the synthetic for 4 years and abuse it on regular basis. It has snaped several times and it always drops to the ground any energy dissipitating almost immediately. We also had it snap back when it was hooked to a stretchy recovery strap and it shot back and over the hood of the vehicle and caused no harm. With steel cable it all would have been different, even without the strap. The rope breaks because it is worn out to less than it's full capacity and as a matter of fact the last 2 times the knot first slipped and then it broke at the knot (which makes it weaker). All this because I sometimes don't even bother to splice it. I will agree that for dragging logs or anything over boulders or any abrasive surface, steel cable is better. But I still feel the steel cable stretches more as even at full load when we ease of the winch it takes less to take the load off the rope than steel cable. I always contributed theis to what I thought was a fact that my rope stretches less than steel cable. 4x4wire shows it may stretch as much as steel or in case of X-line even more. But your statement would have the rope stretch 8 feet at full load at 80ft of rope out. Since this is roughly what I have on my drum, I would, near stall speed of my winch be at full load on the last layer and I can tell you it does not stretch nowhere near the 8ft mark. More like a foot at most.

Regardless of what people consider better for their application, we definitely like the safety aspects and ease of handling of the synthetic. The ease of handling comes into play every time we use it and especially in the winter. We also like how we don't have to care how it winds on the drum any-which way without kinking itself like steel cable. And being able to just put a knot on it in a pinch is also good. Last time I did that when the rope started tearing in a heavily abraided spot (it did not break). I just cut it, put the hook on the end and did a double hitch knot and viola. It is still there today, 1+ years later.

See Leslie what you started a while back.

 

[antichrist]

Well Gabe, whatever. I have had the synthetic for 4 years and abuse it on regular basis. It has snaped several times
snip

Hmmm...I thought synthetic was supposed to be stronger. What this implies to me it degrades significantly over time, at a much higher rate than wire rope. I've been using winches for a long time, both electric, PTO and hydraulic. No matter how I use the winch/cable, on my Land Rover and truck mounted winches, I've never had a wire rope snap (I have had them snap on skidders, but that's an entirely different kind of usage). On the electric, they always reach winch stall before they reach breaking load on the wire rope. PTO's the shear pin went first.

I wonder if there have been any controled comparisons of the life/strength ratio of synthetic vs steel. I know there are comparisons of new vs new, but that's not really real world use.

 

[Milan]

Hmmm...I thought synthetic was supposed to be stronger. What this implies to me it degrades significantly over time, at a much higher rate than wire rope. I've been using winches for a long time, both electric, PTO and hydraulic. No matter how I use the winch/cable, on my Land Rover and truck mounted winches, I've never had a wire rope snap (I have had them snap on skidders, but that's an entirely different kind of usage). On the electric, they always reach winch stall before they reach breaking load on the wire rope. PTO's the shear pin went first.

I wonder if there have been any controled comparisons of the life/strength ratio of synthetic vs steel. I know there are comparisons of new vs new, but that's not really real world use.

Actually I explained why - it was seriously abraded. First 2 times it snapped dues to being burnt by the planetary winch. Once I solved that issue, it lasted couple years before it snapped again and then it was because I was winching it over a sharp metal edge on my gas tank skid. I fixed it by splicing it together. Then it almost came appart at a spot where the strands were worn from winching over logs and such but it did not break. I cut it and put the hook on the end just using a knot. That one is still holding. Then the last 2 times were 1 loosened knot (my fault) and 1 snap at a weakened spot by the new knot I made to fix the loosened one. Overall the rope is probably stronger than steel cable when new. But it abraids easily and becomes weaker. I never claimed otherwise. I will solve this by getting a thicker rope next time.

I also like the safety aspect of it and the ease of handling. In addition I don't worry about how it gets wound on the drum. Steel cable would be destroyed by that. Then again with steel I did not worry about abrasion. And I really did not care how it got wound on the drum either but it did kink the cable and then I worried about it. So by using the synthetic I guess some worry was just shifted from one area to another and some worries were eliminated. As to longevity, I think that depends on how much you use it, how and where. I expected the rope to last 1 year. Cables usually last me 2. But the rope is 4 years old and yes I am in need of a new one.

I was really just questioning the stretch more than steel but namely the 10% stretch and the quick dismissal of the rope as viable recovery medium. That's all.

 

[Kyle]

Its funny you bring this up Tom , when we went through this debate some years ago all the same crap came into play. The Synthetic doesnt store as much energy so its far less of a danger. If you were standing right beside it when it popped you might get slapped but I dont see any beheadings happening. I too broke countless cables running a Timberjack and under huge loads. Whats odd is that I never had one whip. If you are famillair with them then you know how that ball comes off the end at first and that fucker is long gone when it pops but the cable never went whipping though the air like everyone envisions. I am not saying it hasnt happened. I just havnt seen it and I have winched miles and miles of cable. I miss the ole Timberjack , thats 4 wheeling at its finest.. Tread lightly my ass !!!

Kyle

 

[antichrist]

LOL @ tread lightly with a skidder.

Well, when I was running a skidder, there were usually so many other trees hooked on to the cable, and various places along it, that they'd sopt the cable from whipping all over the place. That's not usually the case in vehicle recovery. I don't doubt that a wire rope could do some serious damage if it broke, my point was just that one taken care of is highly unlikely to break, and from the sounds of things, I'd say alot less likely to break than synthetic.

But, like I said, I'd love to see a controled test comaparison under something like real world conditions.