The Kooks are Back

[kennith]

The way I understand it you still have got to have a warrant for arrest.

What happened in this engagement, specifically, that you are considering an "arrest"? At what point, specifically, do you think they needed a warrant in order to legally commit to a certain action?

You're all over the map. Pick one initial point at which a warrant was required and not issued, so as to illustrate that point at which you think action thereafter was not legally undertaken.

Everything was good, according to you, until what happened?

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[D Chapman]

What happened in this engagement, specifically, that you are considering an "arrest"? At what point, specifically, do you think they needed a warrant in order to legally commit to a certain action?

You're all over the map. Pick one initial point at which a warrant was required and not issued, so as to illustrate that point at which you think action thereafter was not legally undertaken.

Everything was good, according to you, until what happened?

Cheers,

Kennith

Here's the way I understand it. I'm not saying I'm right. I've said all along that I'm not a lawyer or even a wannabe cop. I said that from the beginning. So, If I stepped out on my front porch nad yelled across the street to my neighbor, "I'm going to kill you today" and flashed a gun, my neighbor has every right to call the cops. DOes that mean I'm going to be arrested right then? I don't think so. The way I understand it, my neighbor has to go to the magistrates office and file a complaint. If the magistrate agrees s'he can issue a warrant for my arrest for XYZ charges. At that point officers can return to my address and arrest me.

Did LaVoy himself threaten cops? I don't know if he did or not. I know some of the protesters did threaten cops, but I don't know if LaVoy did. Lets say he did. Did he do it an hour before he was pulled over? A day? A week? It just seems to me that if LaVoy threatened harm against someone a day, week, or month ago, there would have been a warrant for his arrest. How can the police come back and say, "hey, you're the guy who threatened my friend a month ago, you're under arrest"?

Lets say he's being charged with destruction of property. Hell, lets say he's wanted for some felony, just make one up. Eluding? Pooping on federal property? Does that still give cops the right to fire upon his vehicle as he drives down the road?

Personally, I think these are good questions. And that's all they are is questions, not answers. Chris, Garrett, JB all think they've got it figured out. I don't think they do. They know about as much about constitutional law as I do. But for some reason they think if your a middle-aged white male who could stand to lose a few pound you're automatically guilty. If that's the case they should all look in the mirror. In the end we all know about as much about these proceedings as the Bundy's.

 

[D Chapman]

Here ya go. All the ways an officer (federal, and local described) can make an arrest in OR. No warrant needed:

https://www.oregon.gov/dpsst/SC/doc...ers/Federal Officer Arrest Manual 10-2013.pdf

Arrest by a Federal Officer
1. Under ORS 133.245 (1), a “federal” officer may arrest a person:
a. For any crime committed in the federal officer’s presence if the
federal officer has probable cause to believe the person
committed the crime. See ORS 133.245 (1)(a).
1) “Any crime” means any misdemeanor or felony.
2) “Committed in the federal officer’s presence” means that
the federal officer must perceive the acts or events which
constitute the crime while they are taking place and not
merely learn of them at a later time (i.e., must see, hear,
feel, smell or taste something to do with the crime while the
crime is occurring).

Part 2 stands out to me.

 

[chris snell]

This is more in tune with Dan's legal expertise.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wqnHtGgVAUE?rel=0&controls=0&showinfo=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Oh come on, Jimmy McGill has a law degree.

 

[stu454]

From the University of American Samoa.

 

[chris snell]

From the University of American Samoa.

It's still more legitimate than the Pete Santilli School of Law at Wingnut State College.

 

[discostew]

Here is an article I think sums up the whole fascination and the argument against that fascination. Dan It's not that I don't care about the fact that the government has way to much power to act and then pass laws to protect themselves. I hate that too. I just don't think it's ever going to change. I'm an old man compared to you and have just learned to pick my battles. Read this article with an open mind and maybe it will help you understand why this whole thing is so fascinating. Fascinating but still the most stupid thing I have seen anybody do this decade.

http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion...as-good-guys-vs-bad-guys/stories/201601290072

 

[D Chapman]

Here is an article I think sums up the whole fascination and the argument against that fascination. Dan It's not that I don't care about the fact that the government has way to much power to act and then pass laws to protect themselves. I hate that too. I just don't think it's ever going to change. I'm an old man compared to you and have just learned to pick my battles. Read this article with an open mind and maybe it will help you understand why this whole thing is so fascinating. Fascinating but still the most stupid thing I have seen anybody do this decade.

http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion...as-good-guys-vs-bad-guys/stories/201601290072

That article does sum up the situation......from one side of things, but does not paint the entire picture. For instance, yes the Bundy's stopped paying their grazing fees on the land. But why? It's because the BLM was using the money paid by Bundy to fight Bundy. Bundy was bankrolling his own fate, so he stopped. He stopped paying in, I think, 1993.

11 years alter the Feds show up to collect their money......with guns drawn. Collecting taxes at gun point? Really? The operations have to date cost tax payers $5.7M to collect what, $1M, in taxes??? Not only is that chump change compared to what Al Sharpton owes to the federal government, but what fucking sense does it make? And we're supposed to be okay with that? God forbid you stop getting your emissions testing, they might send in Delta Force.

You're right that it's a hard battle to win and most people would shy away from dealing with government agencies like the BLM, DEQ, or EPA in the court room. It's hard to tell how many Defenders were destroyed and/or returned to sender before Will Hedrick stepped up to battle Goliath. Some probably thought he was bat-shit crazy, too. But thank goodness for people like Hedrick who stand up for what they feel is right and for stepping on the toes of the EPA. We need more of that.

 

[Mongo]

While the stupidity of what has transpired in most of these cases is immense, and .gov's reaction and attempt to solve the problems has been less than logical, reality is if you followed the rules, kept a level head and didn't threaten any agent that came on your land with a gun, you'd probably not have a problem. Sometimes you need to use the broad sword instead of the scalpel.

Before you start spouting off about whether its right or wrong, there has been a lot of collateral damage. Do I like the laws, do I like the rules, no. Do I have the RIGHT to fight it, yes. But the angle of attack by some of these has escalated the problem, not move it forward to be solved in a court of law. Why, because the machine may be to mighty for a layman to afford the battle.

Look at what Will has done, proved that the what the way vehicles were seized and held was not right. Did he brandish a gun and threaten .gov with a revolution and violence. No...

 

[D Chapman]

Look at what Will has done, proved that the what the way vehicles were seized and held was not right. Did he brandish a gun and threaten .gov with a revolution and violence. No...

Exactly. I've said all along that I did not agree with what the Bundy/Hammond clan has done. Rather, how it came to be.

Look at Red River for instance. They've done the same as Will and fought this in the court of law without the treat of violence. They won the case. Yet, the feds continue.

 

[SGaynor]

That article does sum up the situation......from one side of things, but does not paint the entire picture. For instance, yes the Bundy's stopped paying their grazing fees on the land. But why? It's because the BLM was using the money paid by Bundy to fight Bundy. Bundy was bankrolling his own fate, so he stopped. He stopped paying in, I think, 1993.

So...the police can ticket me for speeding, therefore I won't pay taxes so that the police won't be paid? What kind of logic is that?

That has got to be the dumbest thing I've seen in a while - I'm breaking the law because I'm breaking the law and don't want the police to have money to enforce the laws.

11 years alter the Feds show up to collect their money......with guns drawn. Collecting taxes at gun point? Really? The operations have to date cost tax payers $5.7M to collect what, $1M, in taxes??? Not only is that chump change compared to what Al Sharpton owes to the federal government, but what fucking sense does it make? And we're supposed to be okay with that? God forbid you stop getting your emissions testing, they might send in Delta Force.

Again...more disinformation.

The Feds did not "show up to collect their money......with guns drawn." The were enforcing a court order to remove Bundy's cattle from Federal land. It was Bundy and his supporters who showed up with "guns drawn." Again, ignoring a court order is lawlessness. (and it was 21 years after Bundy stopped paying).

And so what about the cost. Are we supposed to stop enforcing laws if said law breaker makes such an issue that it costs too much (who decides) to enforce the law? Crazy man walking the street with a gun goes and holes himself up in his house, shouting at people - just leave him alone because the cost of the police surrounding his house is too much?

 

[Mongo]

There you go using logic again...

 

[garrett]

There you go using logic again...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=logic

 

[1920SF]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=logic

Who knew that before you'd get a definition for it, you'd get a white rapper. Fascinating.

 

[D Chapman]

Because, logically, tax payers should spend $6M to have some cows taken off some land out in the middle of nowhere that no one really even gives a shit about.

 

[D Chapman]

And so what about the cost. Are we supposed to stop enforcing laws if said law breaker makes such an issue that it costs too much (who decides) to enforce the law? Crazy man walking the street with a gun goes and holes himself up in his house, shouting at people - just leave him alone because the cost of the police surrounding his house is too much?

Ha. Immigration much?

 

[discostew]

Because, logically, tax payers should spend $6M to have some cows taken off some land out in the middle of nowhere that no one really even gives a shit about.

I don't give a shit about the turtles that they supposedly went out to protect. But if he owes a million bucks in back rent I sure give a shit about that Dan. They come after me if I make a $500 error on my taxes. And where did the 6 mil to remove some cows come from?

 

[D Chapman]

I don't give a shit about the turtles that they supposedly went out to protect. But if he owes a million bucks in back rent I sure give a shit about that Dan. They come after me if I make a $500 error on my taxes. And where did the 6 mil to remove some cows come from?

The man owns a lot of land. He owns a house. He owns a lot of farming equipment. He has an income. Get a Judgement on his property and/or garnish his wages.

http://fortune.com/2016/03/26/oregon-standoff-cost/

 

[discostew]

But you said 6 mil to have some cows taken off some land. I don't think it would cost much to go get the cows. Wasn't it a judgement to take the cows off the land? It's obvious your not going to be swayed here. Your mind is made up. You say you don't agree with what they did but you sound like you do agree with what they did.

 

[rovercanus]

But you said 6 mil to have some cows taken off some land. I don't think it would cost much to go get the cows.

You're kidding right? This is the government we're talking about. 6 million is probably just a low ball estimate. The government is probably the largest bureaucrazy in the world. Yes, it's spelled that way intentionally.