'Tis the season... (Election season, that is)

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
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NoVA
... and there's a good reason for that.
It's been a very long time since there was a presidential candidate who could rationally explain how he or she was different from the rest, and offer reasonable path to peace and prosperity.

Now that we see the most-right-wing Democrat candidate and completely-out-of-whack, former Democrat, Republican candidate, all there is to vote for is a general leaning of whichever party.

Just for the sake of discussion, it's worth noting that the US is doing rather well in terms of prosperity and peace is a relative (transitory) condition to begin with. Some would say fanciful but Americans really want that lasting peace myth so as a token lets say that's possible.

When you are still 1/4 of the world's economy and 60+ % of the currency reserves for the globe are in dollars there isn't much argument about the country being prosperous.

Could there be more growth? Of course, but if anyone's read the idea behind all the low hanging fruit being picked we aren't going to see dramatic growth and that is agnostic of either party's economic policies-nevermind that POTUS's effect on the economy is relatively small aside from the symbolic.
 

p m

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Just for the sake of discussion, it's worth noting that the US is doing rather well in terms of prosperity and peace is a relative (transitory) condition to begin with. Some would say fanciful but Americans really want that lasting peace myth so as a token lets say that's possible.

When you are still 1/4 of the world's economy and 60+ % of the currency reserves for the globe are in dollars there isn't much argument about the country being prosperous.

Could there be more growth? Of course, but if anyone's read the idea behind all the low hanging fruit being picked we aren't going to see dramatic growth and that is agnostic of either party's economic policies-nevermind that POTUS's effect on the economy is relatively small aside from the symbolic.

It is an easy sell to me, but not to the Occupy [insert random entity] crowd.

POTUS's effect on the economy can be gargantuan. Obamacare is just beginning to ruin people and small businesses.
 

Discojunky

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
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Greenville SC
The deal is this though......you can piss away your vote and make some "statement" that will fall on deaf ears, you can vote for a lair and someone that has wet dreams about big Gov, higher taxes, less freedom, repealing the 2nd (or at least trying), will appoint liberal justices to the SC, open the boarders to people that hate us or you can vote for a guy that hurts some peoples feeling......is rough around the edges but loves this country.

You folks must be tuned into CNN & NBC......you do know they lie as bad as Clinton AND Obama......lol. If you listen to Trump speak and not the outserts and liberal spin from Network news then at least you get the truth. IMO the choice should be obvious. Is Trump the best man for the job? I don't know......but Hillary is a DISASTER you can guarantee that without a doubt. Hell she hasn't even held a press conference since LAST year because every time she opens her mouth her numbers drop........lol

Last I have seen trail after trail closed due to erosion, lack of funds etc......but the bottom line is liberals hate us our trucks and our guns and who we are as we rape the great outdoors (in their minds)......if you don't think so look at how Hollyweird portrays us........that's what they really think about us. If you vote third party or Hillary you are on the high road to self destruction! That would be ok if you lived in a bubble but you are dragging US down with ya'.
 

emmodg

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2006
4,273
1
The deal is this though......you can piss away your vote and make some "statement" that will fall on deaf ears, you can vote for a lair and someone that has wet dreams about big Gov, higher taxes, less freedom, repealing the 2nd (or at least trying), will appoint liberal justices to the SC, open the boarders to people that hate us or you can vote for a guy that hurts some peoples feeling......is rough around the edges but loves this country.

You folks must be tuned into CNN & NBC......you do know they lie as bad as Clinton AND Obama......lol. If you listen to Trump speak and not the outserts and liberal spin from Network news then at least you get the truth. IMO the choice should be obvious. Is Trump the best man for the job? I don't know......but Hillary is a DISASTER you can guarantee that without a doubt. Hell she hasn't even held a press conference since LAST year because every time she opens her mouth her numbers drop........lol

Last I have seen trail after trail closed due to erosion, lack of funds etc......but the bottom line is liberals hate us our trucks and our guns and who we are as we rape the great outdoors (in their minds)......if you don't think so look at how Hollyweird portrays us........that's what they really think about us. If you vote third party or Hillary you are on the high road to self destruction! That would be ok if you lived in a bubble but you are dragging US down with ya'.


I couldn't give two shits for my truck when compared to my country's direction. I'm not voting for Hillary because she's a crooked lying piece of shit. I'm not voting for Trump because he's a salesman - he's saying shit you want to hear not what he believes. If you believe Donald Trump gives a shit for your guns or your military or your border security or who can and can't come into this country then Godspeed. He didn't know what the 2nd Amend. was until he started running for president. He couldn't have told you where Damascus was unti he started running for president. Do you truly believe he knew anything about the ME, Sunni and Shia, Hamas, or Crimean history? He's in this circus for himself, not for you and not for me. You want to build a big hotel, hire Trump. If you want to hire so,some to run the greatest nation man has created, look elsewhere. Fuck both of them!
 

mgreenspan

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2005
4,723
130
Briggs's Back Yard
The interesting thing about Trump's rise is how little impact it has had on the party. The GOP establishment, as manifestly disconnected as it is from its voter base, has done little to nothing to reconfigure itself. It's as if there has been no internal dialogue or soul searching whatsoever. They're all-in hoping for a Trump loss so they can point and say say "See!", and remain exactly the same. They're hoping to be able to wag a finger at the lumpen base voters, scold them, and get back to the business of cocktail parties and donations. But I suppose the incentives dictate this outcome.

This is the only reason that I secretly hope he wins. No Dem win would ever be a catalyst to escape the current two party system or simply the two parties that we have currently. A Trump win would surely usher in a third party. He's too far from the establishment GOP for them to survive as a party if he wins. I thought for a moment that Bernie would go independent. He didn't. Instead he caved to the Clinton machine then left the Dem party and bought a new beach house.

He isn't really a conservative but people don't care because he's not an establishment guy. Voters are fed up with elected officials promising to make everybody's lives better but really only improving their own life. That's how he made it to the top of the primary. Now I think he just needs to be convincing to the middle of the road folks during the debates and not piss away the current gap between him and Clinton. Sadly, I think he has a shot at winning considering Clinton is "so experienced" and "so much better than him" but she's just not that far ahead of him in the polls because she is effectively like a sack of potatoes in the charisma department. Nobody is excited about her. But she's also untouchable and if she doesn't win I think the Clinton Foundation will explode like that one white supremacist's head in the Clayton Bigsby sketch on Chappelle's Show.
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
It is an easy sell to me, but not to the Occupy [insert random entity] crowd.

POTUS's effect on the economy can be gargantuan. Obamacare is just beginning to ruin people and small businesses.

It def doesn't seem to be an easy sell to either end of the political poles-for oddly similar reasons despite their alleged significant differences.

As far as Obamacare goes, I could roll out the great argument many use about HRC and Iraq and point out that Congress voted for that legislation...

...but what I find even more amusing about it is the US is the only country in the world that pays as much as we do for health care that is this bad. The why behind that isn't POTUS.
-It's because we're an unhealthy, fat as fuck, lazy nation. (In bulk, so to speak) Expecting someone to solve that free choice problem is hilarious.
-But it could be solved; one direction would be to obliterate the medical insurance industry that perpetuates the costs-but to get there we really have to hit a tipping point and the best thing that can be said about Obamacare is that it at least shows us that we need to be thinking about it.

-The other way is even colder; in the US the final year of life for most people costs as much health care wise as the rest of the years of their life; if we changed how we look at death (its going to happen to all of us anyway) and en masse didn't pull out all the stops so that our loved ones could fight and hold on for 3 more months how much would that change the financial equation? (it would quite likely make health care costs not the albatross they are for the country right now) Easy when you are talking about it abstractly of course-incredibly hard when you have the choice to get another mortgage or see someone you care about go.

But I digress.

r-
Ray
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
The deal is this though......you can piss away your vote and make some "statement" that will fall on deaf ears, you can vote for a lair and someone that has wet dreams about big Gov, higher taxes, less freedom, repealing the 2nd (or at least trying), will appoint liberal justices to the SC, open the boarders to people that hate us or you can vote for a guy that hurts some peoples feeling......is rough around the edges but loves this country.

You folks must be tuned into CNN & NBC......you do know they lie as bad as Clinton AND Obama......lol. If you listen to Trump speak and not the outserts and liberal spin from Network news then at least you get the truth. IMO the choice should be obvious. Is Trump the best man for the job? I don't know......but Hillary is a DISASTER you can guarantee that without a doubt. Hell she hasn't even held a press conference since LAST year because every time she opens her mouth her numbers drop........lol

Last I have seen trail after trail closed due to erosion, lack of funds etc......but the bottom line is liberals hate us our trucks and our guns and who we are as we rape the great outdoors (in their minds)......if you don't think so look at how Hollyweird portrays us........that's what they really think about us. If you vote third party or Hillary you are on the high road to self destruction! That would be ok if you lived in a bubble but you are dragging US down with ya'.

I'm all in for a lair; who is offering those this election?
Your first paragraph, is that recycled from 2008? It seems familiar.
 

mgreenspan

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2005
4,723
130
Briggs's Back Yard
-But it could be solved; one direction would be to obliterate the medical insurance industry that perpetuates the costs-but to get there we really have to hit a tipping point

false adsumption. The only way to make people not tolerate the costs is to have them pay out of pocket. Nobody would pay $20 for an aspirin or $50 for a box of tissues. If insurance is paying for it nobody will ever care. Look at college education costs. Same thing is happening there.

If the insurance covered what people actually cared about which is catastrophic health issues then more people would buy it and we wouldn't have the same problem. Obliterating the insurers and going to single payer (which I'm fairly certain is what you were implying by this) is not the solution.

All that voted for it are at fault. Not just Obama who is the President.
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
false adsumption. The only way to make people not tolerate the costs is to have them pay out of pocket. Nobody would pay $20 for an aspirin or $50 for a box of tissues. If insurance is paying for it nobody will ever care. Look at college education costs. Same thing is happening there.

If the insurance covered what people actually cared about which is catastrophic health issues then more people would buy it and we wouldn't have the same problem. Obliterating the insurers and going to single payer (which I'm fairly certain is what you were implying by this) is not the solution.

All that voted for it are at fault. Not just Obama who is the President.

Actually that isn't the only way to solve it, the opposite is true but likely to not be effective too-i.e. truly socialized medicine. Just for the sake of discussion, having people pay out of pocket will ensure the wealthy get good care and everyone else likely doesn't.

Its all good though, the status quo with insurance companies isn't sustainable either-sooner or later the problem will get addressed out of necessity.
 

p m

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false adsumption. The only way to make people not tolerate the costs is to have them pay out of pocket. Nobody would pay $20 for an aspirin or $50 for a box of tissues. If insurance is paying for it nobody will ever care. Look at college education costs. Same thing is happening there.

If the insurance covered what people actually cared about which is catastrophic health issues then more people would buy it and we wouldn't have the same problem. Obliterating the insurers and going to single payer (which I'm fairly certain is what you were implying by this) is not the solution.

All that voted for it are at fault. Not just Obama who is the President.

That's right... http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/20/u...ll-be-like-employer-coverage-think-again.html
 

mgreenspan

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2005
4,723
130
Briggs's Back Yard
Actually that isn't the only way to solve it, the opposite is true but likely to not be effective too-i.e. truly socialized medicine. Just for the sake of discussion, having people pay out of pocket will ensure the wealthy get good care and everyone else likely doesn't.

Its all good though, the status quo with insurance companies isn't sustainable either-sooner or later the problem will get addressed out of necessity.

Take the most extreme interpretation of what I posted. I'm not saying zero health insurance. I'm saying plans that are accurate. If hospitals charge a low income person $20 for an aspirin do you think they'd get away with that? Fuck no man. Rich people will always have better shit than poor people. Acting like they won't is crazy.

What people should have is coverage plans to help them when expenses are thru the roof, e.g. you need to have ACL surgery, you need to have eye surgery, you need to have heart surgery, you have a tumor on your brain. The average person doesn't give a shit about coverage for common colds, flu, etc. The shit you can buy the medicine for at a Walgreens without a prescription. Those plans would be affordable and sustainable. What the American people got was mandatory minimum coverage requirements that are insane. They are expensive and companies can't afford it and neither can consumers. Older people bought them, younger people didn't. Younger people don't see the need for that stuff since they are healthier but without them there isn't enough money in the system which is why it has struggled. It was doomed.
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
Take the most extreme interpretation of what I posted. I'm not saying zero health insurance. I'm saying plans that are accurate. If hospitals charge a low income person $20 for an aspirin do you think they'd get away with that? Fuck no man. Rich people will always have better shit than poor people. Acting like they won't is crazy.

What people should have is coverage plans to help them when expenses are thru the roof, e.g. you need to have ACL surgery, you need to have eye surgery, you need to have heart surgery, you have a tumor on your brain. The average person doesn't give a shit about coverage for common colds, flu, etc. The shit you can buy the medicine for at a Walgreens without a prescription. Those plans would be affordable and sustainable. What the American people got was mandatory minimum coverage requirements that are insane. They are expensive and companies can't afford it and neither can consumers. Older people bought them, younger people didn't. Younger people don't see the need for that stuff since they are healthier but without them there isn't enough money in the system which is why it has struggled. It was doomed.

The creators of the ACA knew this, that's why they put in the tax penalty. Which didn't do shit. BCBSNC is the only insurer left in NC. Hell of a market place, right?
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
I think trump just planned on being a spoiler in the beginning but then his big ego made him think that he could actually get in the white house. The scariest thing I've read about him and his tax returns is the fact that he could be very much beholden to Russian's because of huge debt to people over there.Like some heckler said to him " Your Putin's Bitch"

As the Clinton Foundation takes major contributions from the middle east......
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
The deal is this though......you can piss away your vote and make some "statement" that will fall on deaf ears, you can vote for a lair and someone that has wet dreams about big Gov, higher taxes, less freedom, repealing the 2nd (or at least trying), will appoint liberal justices to the SC, open the boarders to people that hate us or you can vote for a guy that hurts some peoples feeling......is rough around the edges but loves this country.

You folks must be tuned into CNN & NBC......you do know they lie as bad as Clinton AND Obama......lol. If you listen to Trump speak and not the outserts and liberal spin from Network news then at least you get the truth. IMO the choice should be obvious. Is Trump the best man for the job? I don't know......but Hillary is a DISASTER you can guarantee that without a doubt. Hell she hasn't even held a press conference since LAST year because every time she opens her mouth her numbers drop........lol

Last I have seen trail after trail closed due to erosion, lack of funds etc......but the bottom line is liberals hate us our trucks and our guns and who we are as we rape the great outdoors (in their minds)......if you don't think so look at how Hollyweird portrays us........that's what they really think about us. If you vote third party or Hillary you are on the high road to self destruction! That would be ok if you lived in a bubble but you are dragging US down with ya'.

LOL, not me. I'm with you on this. Great post, very sobering.

And lets talk about her health.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e3ARRQpyzA
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
I couldn't give two shits for my truck when compared to my country's direction. I'm not voting for Hillary because she's a crooked lying piece of shit. I'm not voting for Trump because he's a salesman - he's saying shit you want to hear not what he believes. If you believe Donald Trump gives a shit for your guns or your military or your border security or who can and can't come into this country then Godspeed. He didn't know what the 2nd Amend. was until he started running for president. He couldn't have told you where Damascus was unti he started running for president. Do you truly believe he knew anything about the ME, Sunni and Shia, Hamas, or Crimean history? He's in this circus for himself, not for you and not for me. You want to build a big hotel, hire Trump. If you want to hire so,some to run the greatest nation man has created, look elsewhere. Fuck both of them!

As much of a salesmen Trump is at least you know what you're getting. I personally don't think he is pandering. I truly belive he wants to help this country and always has. He has talked about rebuilding America and its inner cities for 30+ years. (https://twitter.com/hoodsonco/status/767059958168850432). I may be proven wrong here but its worth giving the man a shot.

Hillary will lie to the American People (Ransom Payment for hostages?) and not think twice. There are stark differences and I opt for one that's not a pathological liar. 8 more years of this? No, no thanks. Voting for Johnson? Okay but as mentioned it's between two. Boys and girls, if we don't realize what's about to go down we're not going to have to worry about Clinton for 4, it's going to be 8. Get ready.

Check her health.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e3ARRQpyzA
 
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1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
As much of a salesmen Trump is at least you know what you're getting. Hillary will lie to the American People (Ransom Payment for hostages?) and not think twice. There are stark differences and I opt for one that's not a pathological liar. 8 more years of this? No, no thanks. Voting for Johnson? Okay but as mentioned it's between two. Boys and girls, if we don't realize what's about to go down we're not going to have to worry about Clinton for 4, it's going to be 8. Get ready.

Check her health.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e3ARRQpyzA

What, exactly, are you getting with Trump? I'm afraid given his record, behavior, and history what that is seems quite unclear but since it is far clearer to you I'm interested in what you think that is.

Oh, and the ransom payment thing-what would you do, just give them their money back for nothing (since it was their money we were giving back), or would you have not given their money back even though it we were basically told by an outside body that yeah, it kinda is their money and if you believe in rule of law you should give it back.

I.e. it's another made up scandal by, and for, people who really don't seem to have any idea how diplomacy and such works.
r-
Ray
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
What, exactly, are you getting with Trump? I'm afraid given his record, behavior, and history what that is seems quite unclear but since it is far clearer to you I'm interested in what you think that is.

Oh, and the ransom payment thing-what would you do, just give them their money back for nothing (since it was their money we were giving back), or would you have not given their money back even though it we were basically told by an outside body that yeah, it kinda is their money and if you believe in rule of law you should give it back.

I.e. it's another made up scandal by, and for, people who really don't seem to have any idea how diplomacy and such works.
r-
Ray

Ray,

You're trying to pull me into a specific debate with you and I'm not doing that. If you don't know what DJT stands for by now your mind has been made up. If not try www.donaldjtrump.com. My wife is from Wales and she and her parents came to America in the 80's and did it the RIGHT way. This is huge for me and the main reason I support him. immigration reform.

As for the ransom, how about not pay it? We have the upper hand with bargaining power and we can't seem to get it right.

Hillary supporters will try to argue all day long about how Trump can't and won't (lie) do what he says. The whole time HRC can't do anything but lie and accept big money donations from the middle east for the Clinton Foundation. Pay for Play, can't use emails correctly and dishonest, just to name a very few things. And how about her health?
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
Ray,

You're trying to pull me into a specific debate with you and I'm not doing that. If you don't know what DJT stands for by now your mind has been made up. If not try www.donaldjtrump.com. My wife is from Wales and she and her parents came to America in the 80's and did it the RIGHT way. This is huge for me and the main reason I support him. immigration reform.

As for the ransom, how about not pay it? We have the upper hand with bargaining power and we can't seem to get it right.

Hillary supporters will try to argue all day long about how Trump can't and won't (lie) do what he says. The whole time HRC can't do anything but lie and accept big money donations from the middle east for the Clinton Foundation. Pay for Play, can't use emails correctly and dishonest, just to name a very few things. And how about her health?

Brian-
Fair enough; let us not debate or discuss specifics, it is the internet afterall. That said I would note the concepts on immigration are just as likely to do harm to the economy as they are to accomplish whatever else people view them as being oriented against. That's actually the major thread that I find fault with Trump's positions; his view on the economy is compelling but non-substantive. I.e. it panders to folks that want to believe that the great 1950's middle class explosion to manufacturing jobs can be re-ignited if we'd just stop getting screwed by trade imbalance and the like.

Except that really isn't the main reason those jobs are obsolete; technology changing (and us not keeping up) has just as much bearing on it.

Ironic that we champion making American Great, again by espousing protectionist trade policies that are directly counter to that free market capitalism that we say is a core facet of the US.

Nevermind that the tax policies he's proposing, or the reduction in free trade, the implementation in tariffs, etc-all of that economically doesn't actually promote growth when you look at the data.

Beyond that there is a tremendous amount of platitudes and promises that will go nowhere, like replacing bureaucrats with experts-who are these experts (and what have they been doing to make them experts, and why-if they are experts-would they come to the Fed Gov't to work instead of working in the open market where their expertise will make them money?

All of it comes back to being sold a bullshit narrative....

...just like HRC is doing.

Exactly like HRC is doing. There is no substantive difference there, only different bias depending on what tugs at the heart strings.

So we can try to make American Great, again-except there is no evidence America is not great right now and plenty of evidence that it is quite great at this moment of history.

As far as paying the money goes; to tie it back to the law and order candidate Trump, if we didn't give the money that was theirs back we fly in the face of norms that we would be apoplectic about were the situation reversed. Put another way if we want to act like a hegemon and an empire to ensure that more and mroe nations actively find ways to counter us that is a great way to do it. On the other hand using it as leverage to get back AMCITs was pragmatic, particularly when we didn't really have this theoretic bargaining power that people keep talking about. I guess we could return Iranian relations back to what they were pre nuclear deal, i.e. status quo since 1979, and eventually that would accomplish....
...well nothing, as it didn't do a damn thing for the last 40 years substantively but perhaps if we just tried a little harder and meant it more looking ahead it would.

We could talk about Donald's $$$, except we can't b/c he won't release his taxes.
We could also talk about the oldest potential president's health but we can't do that either.

They are of exactly the same ilk. To think otherwise is to embrace delusion.